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Yeah, point being it's not David vs Goliath, it's Goliath vs Godzilla.

Look up how little 32 billion is vs 2.6 trillion


Relatively speaking this absolutely is David vs Goliath
 
Let's say for the sake of argument that the EU cannot force a business relationship. This IMHO wouldn't prevent the EU from requiring Apple to allow Epic access to the platform.

The requirement of entering in a business relationship to access the platform is entirely Apple's arbitrary decision, so why would the EU be concerned at all with it, or consider it as a waiver to the DMA provisions?

Note that you don't need to enter in any business relationship with Apple to e.g. provide software to MacOS users...
IMO, if the EU were to require Apple to grant Epic a developer account (so they can access the platform and do what they said and setup an alternate App Store) Apple will go to court in the EU ...
Now, there are many points of contention between the EU and the US, so I think that some "US official" will mention to some "EU official" in their many talks that if the EU will stay out of the dispute between Apple and Epic, the US will "give in" on some other point of contention ...
I just cannot see the EU going into Epic's side of the house ...
 
which makes the whole thing non DMA compliant

It's not entirely clear. The DMA allows a gatekeeper to take measures so that alternate applications "do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper, provided that such measures are duly justified by the gatekeeper."

The question it this action is proportionate and strictly necessary.
 
Why does everyone hate Epic so much? Does Tim Sweeney have an annoying voice or something? For the life of me I can't fathom why so many people celebrate when one company can stomp out another's ability to distribute apps on a major platform.

Because Epic thinks they are above Apple when it comes to Apple

Also Sweeney doesn’t know when to shut up

Theres also that song “ you say it best when you say nothing at all” Tim Cook is careful in his Tweets unlike Sweeney who doesn’t know when to shut up
 
Apple’s lawyer:

“As you know, in addition to the concerns we have outlined above, the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion."



I‘ve read or seen Americans the stereotype of Americans thinking of the U.S. as the Center of the universe and being ignorant to other countries rules and law (e.g. this border patrol show with Americans insisting on their right to carry arms when entering Canada). But I certainly would have expected better from a professional lawyer (supposedly) well paid by Apple.

Apple’s U.S. court judgement has zero bearing on their right (or abuse of power) to terminate a Swedish developer account, especially in light of the DMA.
 
It's not entirely clear. The DMA allows a gatekeeper to take measures so that alternate applications "do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper, provided that such measures are duly justified by the gatekeeper."

The question it this action is proportionate and strictly necessary.
spot on, and Apple would use the EU court system to fight for that ...
 
If you think there are no spam/spyware programs on iOS, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The spam/spyware are just nicely renamed as "analytics," "telemetry," or "advertising" these days
Not if you don't let the apps track you which is asked every time you open a newly installed app. Also skip programs from Meta and Google and likely not much of a problem.
 
Ridiculous of Apple. If I want to install an application developed by Epic on the device I paid Apple money for, I should be free to do so. If Apple wants to use the "alternate store" model to enable this, then they should not be able to block Epic.
 
Yes, they surely were. Flash was still very widespread at the time, but it was still already a very bad piece of software from the security point of view.
Security can be patched. Flash could have been re-worked.
 
Apple’s lawyer:

“As you know, in addition to the concerns we have outlined above, the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion."


I‘ve read or seen Americans the stereotype of Americans thinking of the U.S. as the Center of the universe and being ignorant to other countries rules and law (e.g. this border patrol show with Americans insisting on their right to carry arms when entering Canada). But I certainly would have expected better from a professional lawyer (supposedly) well paid by Apple.

Apple’s U.S. court judgement has zero bearing on their right (or abuse of power) to terminate a Swedish developer account, especially in light of the DMA.
Ninth Circuit unanimously agreed Epic broke contract law. SCOTUS would guarantee this as well.

Wake me when Epic appeals to SCOTUS.

They won't snd the EU will consult their highest court to reach out and review the Ninth's ruling and opinions snd be hands off.
 
@FloatingBones @STOCK411 @Analog Kid - @Cchase88754321 made a fair characterization. See Phil’s own words.

It wasn't a fair characterization as I understood it. If Apple had stated that they don't allow criticism of their platform, that would have bothered me-- which is what @Cchase88754321 implied. That isn't at all what Schiller said. What Schiller said is that Epic has a proven record of breaching contracts and they said in court they did it simply to make a point about a rule they didn't like. That pattern looks like it may repeat itself. So,

Phil Schiller said:
You have stated that allowing enrollment of Epic Games Sweden in the Developer Program is "a good faith move by Apple." We invite you to provide us with written assurance that you are also acting in good faith, and that Epic Games Sweden will, despite your public actions and rhetoric, honor all of its commitments. In plain, unqualified terms, please tell us why we should trust Epic this time.

I don't have any problem at all with that statement. Apple doesn't need to allow Epic back in, but are open to the possibility if Epic will state in writing that their public rhetoric is simply rhetoric and they will behave differently now as a contractual partner than they have in the past.

It appears that Epic wasn't willing to do that and Apple won't be fooled twice.
 
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Lots of people making legal pronouncements here.

I'm a lawyer, but this is not my specific area of expertise, so I'm holding off on pronouncing judgment. However I do know the the issues involved here are MUCH more complex than most posters seem to believe.

Don't be too entrenched in your view - this could easily go either way. Apple doesn't have full freedom of contract as it's a gatekeeper, and as such is limited in how it can treat business partners. Epic was about to launch a store, but can't now. On the other hand, it's behaviours hasn't been a shining example of good practice. On the other side of the equation, the EU has new rules that it will be keen to show it's serious about.

It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

You’re right, lots of armchair lawyering going around here.

I used to be one, specialized in EU law no less, but then I traded people who show up with poorly Googled statutes in for me just Googleing code.

Nevertheless, I’ll add some more of my own armchair lawyering from the Hasbin region, all the rest is just sparkling armchair lawyering.
Apple terminated Epic's developer account in Sweden though. I don't think US courts have any jurisdiction on that contractual agreement.

The DMA requires Apple to provide access to the platform. How Apple intends to do that is Apple's problem from the point of view of the DMA.

Basically, Apple not wanting to enter a business relationship with Epic does not invalidate the DMA requirement for them to allow Epic access to the platform unless Apple can justify disallowing access due to "strictly necessary and proportionate" measures to ensure the platform's security.
Contracts often include a jurisdication clause.

Private international law allows for this and more specifically for the EU, Rome I allows for this and honors it except in very narrow instances. There are some general exceptions in the form of consumer protections, but those don't apply in B2B contracts.

The Apple Developer Program License Agreement (ADPLA), contains such a clause in §14.10. It used to exclusively select the Northern District of California as their choice, but recently they've added Ireland in §14.10(d) as well for most cases arising out of a "European Relationship", with an explicit carveout for IP-related matters.

This change is presumably made to comply with Article 5(6) of the DMA which requires gatekeepers to allow parties to bring matters before a national court in the EU when it pertains to non-compliance with the DMA. The newly added clause that selects Ireland is a bit broader than that, but I suppose Apple's lawyers felt generous when they changed it.

So on the matter of jurisdication, as far as it pertains to "European Relationships" anyways, Irish courts would have jurisdications. But that doesn't have much relevance for this debate.

First and foremost, the DMA does not force business relationships and this notion that the DMA requires Apple to provide access to Epic (or anyone for that matter) without condition. I'm goin to need a citation for that.

In fact, throughout the DMA it's very clear that requiring an agreement has the EU's stamp of approval. Specifically Article 6(12) clearly states that the gatekeeper is allowed to set conditions of access, as long as they're fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory.

Still, the bigger question is if there even is a valid contract. While the US has slowly moved away from the hard requirement of a meeting of the minds under the subjective theory of assent in favor of objective manifestations of asssnt, European courts are still hardcore subscribers to the original meaning of consensus ad idem.

There's also a component in which it would be weighed if it was reasonable for Epic to assume Apple willingly entered into a contract with them, considering the history.

Apple would only have to assert that they didn't intend to enter into a contract with Epic, which can be further supported by the fact that Epic was kicked out of the ADPLA and that Apple has insisted at (and had been granted by). the California court that they should be able to sever all ties with Epic and affiliates.

Even worse, Apple can argue that Epic tried to deceive Apple by setting up a different entity with a name and address details other than what was known to Apple and has plugged those details into a (semi-)automated process to get a developer account in an attempt to bind Apple to an agreement they don't want.

European courts are not in the business of forcing people into contracts with one another and it's pretty likely that this new contract would be void. At the very least it would be considered a continuation of and directly related to the California case and European courts would simply defer to the court in the Northern District of California. Not in the least because that court's ruling affects affiliates as well, meaning it also covers this new entity.

In short, this whole thing is another Epic gambit and isn't going anywhere.

What doesn't sit right? Epic claiming this was the reason? You're right. It isn't credible that Apple would terminate their account just because the CEO said some stuff.
You're right. Apple clearly stated in the emails shared by Epic that it was because of their prior breach of contract and that the current pontificating by Sweeny about the new contract they wanted to enter in, worries them if they'd adhere to the terms of the contract.
Are you arguing that an US company doing business in the EU and entering a contract in the EU is subject to US law instead of EU law?
As stated above, that could be the case and happens quite often. Also the other way around by the way. This is by design to facilitate international trade.

Please look up the concept of "standing" in law. It would be a real catch-22 by your standards for the choices to be:

1. Epic accepts Apple's terms of service, some of which they believe to be illegal. But Epic accepted them so tough s***.
2. Epic never accepts Apple's terms of service, never launches anything on the App Store. Now Epic has no standing in court because they aren't party to any sort of damage from Apple. Epic isn't allowed to sue for relief in court.

This is not how the legal system works. Choice 1 is only way forward for corrective action.
Did you pick this up watching Better Call Saul or something? It would be more helpful if you'd put more effort into understanding the matter at hand before opining on it.

Civil law cases don't aim to make "corrective" or punitive actions. Their primary purpose is to remedy a wrong. Standing relates to if you have sufficient connection to the matter at hand to be able to participate in a case. You don't have a right to create standing to get "relief" or a "corrective action".

If no negotiation is possible, then you have two options:

1. If you like the terms of the contract you can enter into it
2. If you don't like the terms, you don't enter into the contract

That's not a catch-22, that's just life.

In fact, entering into a contract under a false premise has implications on mutual assent, which could lead to the contract being deemed void.

There's a whole slew of other issues that come up as well with your kind of bad faith mentality. If you like looking up stuff I'd suggest you look into things such as the "clean hands doctrine", "estoppel by silence" and "laches". For Europe, since they don't do estoppels (not counting UK), "Nemo potest venire contra factum proprium" is a great thing to look into to get eased into this rabbit hole.

Alternatively you can just read what the Northern District of California and the Ninth Circuit had to say about Epic's masterplan to purposefully breach contract. I'll give you a spoiler: standing had nothing to do with it.

ETA: If just standing is you main concern: Epic would still have standing even if they didn't break the contract, if there would've been an actual injury that is. You don't need to break a contract for that and often, like in this case, it will work against you if you break the contract instead of going to court.
 
If you go through a typical European country regulator authority can find plenty of cases where they find EULA clauses to be invalid.

An EULA in itself is a contract and contract clauses in general can be found to be invalid, regardless of whether both parties agreed to them.

An invalid contractual clause can invalidate the whole contract if the contract cannot stand without said clause, or the contract might be declared still valid without the invalid clauses if it can stand without them.
Epic signed developer business contracts. This has nothing to do with a EULA.

 
Why does everyone hate Epic so much? Does Tim Sweeney have an annoying voice or something? For the life of me I can't fathom why so many people celebrate when one company can stomp out another's ability to distribute apps on a major platform.
Because Epic violated their contract and tried to pretend it was a noble thing.
 
Ridiculous of Apple. If I want to install an application developed by Epic on the device I paid Apple money for, I should be free to do so. If Apple wants to use the "alternate store" model to enable this, then they should not be able to block Epic.
Ridiculous if I want to put my Xbox One disc into my PS5 and it doesn't play!
 
Cry-baby Tim Sweeney should resign. He's the one who called the shots and ruined the relationship with Apple by being greedy and stubborn.

Maybe if he resigns, Apple will also reconsider the decision of allowing Epic back on the App Store.
 
Relationships are so bad with Epic now that it probably killed off any momentum in gaming on Mac’s. Since most games use Unreal.
If gaming on the mac ever becomes a thing, Epic will be falling all over themselves and lawyering up to get in on it.
 
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You’re right, lots of armchair lawyering going around here.

I used to be one, specialized in EU law no less, but then I traded people who show up with poorly Googled statutes in for me just Googleing code.

Nevertheless, I’ll add some more of my own armchair lawyering from the Hasbin region, all the rest is just sparkling armchair lawyering.

Contracts often include a jurisdication clause.

Private international law allows for this and more specifically for the EU, Rome I allows for this and honors it except in very narrow instances. There are some general exceptions in the form of consumer protections, but those don't apply in B2B contracts.

The Apple Developer Program License Agreement (ADPLA), contains such a clause in §14.10. It used to exclusively select the Northern District of California as their choice, but recently they've added Ireland in §14.10(d) as well for most cases arising out of a "European Relationship", with an explicit carveout for IP-related matters.

This change is presumably made to comply with Article 5(6) of the DMA which requires gatekeepers to allow parties to bring matters before a national court in the EU when it pertains to non-compliance with the DMA. The newly added clause that selects Ireland is a bit broader than that, but I suppose Apple's lawyers felt generous when they changed it.

So on the matter of jurisdication, as far as it pertains to "European Relationships" anyways, Irish courts would have jurisdications. But that doesn't have much relevance for this debate.

First and foremost, the DMA does not force business relationships and this notion that the DMA requires Apple to provide access to Epic (or anyone for that matter) without condition. I'm goin to need a citation for that.

In fact, throughout the DMA it's very clear that requiring an agreement has the EU's stamp of approval. Specifically Article 6(12) clearly states that the gatekeeper is allowed to set conditions of access, as long as they're fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory.

Still, the bigger question is if there even is a valid contract. While the US has slowly moved away from the hard requirement of a meeting of the minds under the subjective theory of assent in favor of objective manifestations of asssnt, European courts are still hardcore subscribers to the original meaning of consensus ad idem.

There's also a component in which it would be weighed if it was reasonable for Epic to assume Apple willingly entered into a contract with them, considering the history.

Apple would only have to assert that they didn't intend to enter into a contract with Epic, which can be further supported by the fact that Epic was kicked out of the ADPLA and that Apple has insisted at (and had been granted by). the California court that they should be able to sever all ties with Epic and affiliates.

Even worse, Apple can argue that Epic tried to deceive Apple by setting up a different entity with a name and address details other than what was known to Apple and has plugged those details into a (semi-)automated process to get a developer account in an attempt to bind Apple to an agreement they don't want.

European courts are not in the business of forcing people into contracts with one another and it's pretty likely that this new contract would be void. At the very least it would be considered a continuation of and directly related to the California case and European courts would simply defer to the court in the Northern District of California. Not in the least because that court's ruling affects affiliates as well, meaning it also covers this new entity.

In short, this whole thing is another Epic gambit and isn't going anywhere.


You're right. Apple clearly stated in the emails shared by Epic that it was because of their prior breach of contract and that the current pontificating by Sweeny about the new contract they wanted to enter in, worries them if they'd adhere to the terms of the contract.

As stated above, that could be the case and happens quite often. Also the other way around by the way. This is by design to facilitate international trade.


Did you pick this up watching Better Call Saul or something? It would be more helpful if you'd put more effort into understanding the matter at hand before opining on it.

Civil law cases don't aim to make "corrective" or punitive actions. Their primary purpose is to remedy a wrong. Standing relates to if you have sufficient connection to the matter at hand to be able to participate in a case. You don't have a right to create standing to get "relief" or a "corrective action".

If no negotiation is possible, then you have two options:

1. If you like the terms of the contract you can enter into it
2. If you don't like the terms, you don't enter into the contract

That's not a catch-22, that's just life.

In fact, entering into a contract under a false premise has implications on mutual assent, which could lead to the contract being deemed void.

There's a whole slew of other issues that come up as well with your kind of bad faith mentality. If you like looking up stuff I'd suggest you look into things such as the "clean hands doctrine", "estoppel by silence" and "laches". For Europe, since they don't do estoppels (not counting UK), "Nemo potest venire contra factum proprium" is a great thing to look into to get eased into this rabbit hole.

Alternatively you can just read what the Northern District of California and the Ninth Circuit had to say about Epic's masterplan to purposefully breach contract. I'll give you a spoiler: standing had nothing to do with it.

ETA: If just standing is you main concern: Epic would still have standing even if they didn't break the contract, if there would've been an actual injury that is. You don't need to break a contract for that and often, like in this case, it will work against you if you break the contract instead of going to court.
Thank You for these insights!
 
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