Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account

[brofkand]

As I posted earlier, Steve’s attitude with flash wasn’t good. We know NOW it was a good thing. But it was quite a topic back then. And Steve has worse attitude than Tim Cook. Steve’s vision was computers should be locked down appliances. Not Tim Cook.

I get the point but I don't think Apple refusing to offer Flash support on the iPhone is quite the same thing. Nobody supported Flash on mobile at the time as I recall, so Apple wasn't alone there. By the time Android offered Flash support, it was half-baked and didn't work well.

Evil for asking a company to give a clear commitment to honor its contracts, after a premeditated public spectacle of breaking contracts in the past? After a US court said that Apple was allowed to ban Epic (a US company) from their developer programs as a result? And after the CEO made public statements that he did not agree with the terms in Apple's agreement again?

Shame on Apple, picking on poor defenseless $32 billion dollar companies.

It is my understanding that Epic had already made amends for that. So you're saying that Apple is punishing Epic a second time for something they've already paid for? That is even worse.

 

[ksj1]

It is my understanding that Epic had already made amends for that. So you're saying that Apple is punishing Epic a second time for something they've already paid for? That is even worse.

How exactly did Epic make amends again?

 

[visualseed]

which aide are you referring to???
Neither Apple nor Epic have been found to be monopolies, not even in the EU.
So your statement is just blatantly false.

Thanks for beating me to this. People seem to think the DMA is an antitrust law and it’s not.

 

[CapitalIdea]

It’s like Apple is just asking to get fined another billion+

Based on what? Businesses are free to choose who they have dealings with.

 

[rkuo]

Thanks for beating me to this. People seem to think the DMA is an antitrust law and it’s not.

How is it not?

 

[Realityck]

How exactly did Epic make amends again?

I guess this recent example doesn't sit well with Apple, aka hot garbage comment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1750589570880516402

 

[strongy]

In the US under US laws / rules.
Under EU rules they have to allow what epic wants to do.

So Apple should tell the court so they can be cited for breaching the courts decision

 

[platinumaqua]

Not if you don't let the apps track you which is asked every time you open a newly installed app. Also skip programs from Meta and Google and likely not much of a problem.

I have pihole on my network. Even with all the possible tracking setting disabled in the app and OS (“allow apps to request to track” off), most apps are still very chatty to tracker domains

 

[mcnallym]

You keep repeating this, but it’s irrelevant to an iOS user - so stop it!

No it isn't.

If you are so passionate about this then why did you buy an iOS device in the first place.

Like me they question why someone who wants all those freedoms and features chooses to purchase an iOS Device.

When I worked as a Consultant then I would ask people there requirements of what trying to achieve.

iOS devices wouldn't have even been an "alternative option" that I would give you

 

[VicS4]

I love Apple like the most, always trusted them and I will keep doing it, but this time I can't agree with the decision they took, and I don't think they have anything to do in court agaisnt this, because saying that trashtalking about you is a reason to get your developer account won't be valid for the court... so that leads me to wonder, why did Apple allowed Epic to make another account? What changed from the day the applied, get accepted and then get deleted?

 

[mcnallym]

It is my understanding that Epic had already made amends for that. So you're saying that Apple is punishing Epic a second time for something they've already paid for? That is even worse.

When you have been on the receiving end and you see the same repeated behaviour from the perpetrator then would you stick around to find out if going to be a repeat offender or would you take action to protect yourself before they repeat.

 

[VicS4]

When you have been on the receiving end and you see the same repeated behaviour from the perpetrator then would you stick around to find out if going to be a repeat offender or would you take action to protect yourself before they repeat.

But how did Epic perpetrate the same behaviour if they didn't have a Developer account yet until now? They were just doing what the court ordered Apple to allow. Alternative App Stores. Epic was going to do that.

 

[ksj1]

But how did Epic perpetrate the same behaviour if they didn't have a Developer account yet until now? They were just doing what the court ordered Apple to allow. Alternative App Stores. Epic was going to do that.

What court ordered Apple to allow Epic in the App Store?

 

[mcnallym]

But how did Epic perpetrate the same behaviour if they didn't have a Developer account yet until now? They were just doing what the court ordered Apple to allow. Alternative App Stores. Epic was going to do that.

By exhibiting the same behaviour, ie complaining about the terms and conditions of an agreement that they signed up too.

Previously they signed up to an agreement with Apple, complained about the agreement, then broke the agreement terms blatantly and said they were doing deliberately.

Same process here.

 

[VicS4]

What court ordered Apple to allow Epic in the App Store?

They didn't force them to allow Epic specifically, also, why would they have accepted them to Developer Program (again) then block them when they were already working on the App Store? They give them the candy and take it away in their mouth.

 

[strongy]

But the DMA is based in the EU. US courts have no power here.

Violating a court order is extremely serious, especially since they took it all the way up and lost

 

[jakey rolling]

How is it not?

Because people are being pedantic and ignoring the implication behind the term "gatekeeper". They are ignoring the fact that to actually be a gatekeeper, an entity would have to have enough share of a given market to be able to dictate terms to prospective participants in that market - particularly participants who would compete with the gatekeeper.

 

[MNGR]

Apple spends $26 billion a year on R&D to create this valuable platform that developers want to be a part of, but dont want to pay what Apple asks? Do I have that right?

yes you do

 

[flofixer]

It should worry absolutely everyone, even the fanboys, that Apple thinks they have the right to decide whether or not people are allowed to install certain apps from certain developers on devices that they own.

I have more important things to worry about.

 

[brofkand]

But how did Epic perpetrate the same behaviour if they didn't have a Developer account yet until now? They were just doing what the court ordered Apple to allow. Alternative App Stores. Epic was going to do that.

Exactly. Apple banned them because they were actually going to open an alternative app store, and Apple didn't really want anyone to actually do that.

 

[visualseed]

Because people are being pedantic and ignoring the implication behind the term "gatekeeper". They are ignoring the fact that to actually be a gatekeeper, an entity would have to have enough share of a given market to be able to dictate terms to prospective participants in that market - particularly participants who would compete with the gatekeeper.

No, because the “gatekeeper” designation can apply to companies that have not nor may ever be considered monopolistic (or actual monopolies) in their markets, much less abusive, and applies ex-ante regulation to mandate compliance rather than an ex-post instrument to punish violations.

The EU, like the US, already had a good Competition (antitrust) Law, but decided that it did not allow them to micromanage market segments to their advantage so they made a new category of “anticompetitive” laws to apply to companies and behaviors they deem potentially “harmful” despite no definitive proof of “harm.”

PS: Even the EU specifically said it is not an antitrust law. It is asymmetric sectoral EU internal market regulation similar to telecom or financial service regulation.

 

[strongy]

Let’s see if Apple changes their tune once the EU fines them for this violation the the DMA

then the court can charge epic with contempt and awards Apple double what the eu fines them that’s entirely possible too they could also add additional penalties if they wanted

The courts ruling applied to any and all subsidiaries including the eu one

 

[Analog Kid]

@Cchase88754321 accurately pointed out that Apple didn’t like what Epic said about them which Schiller’s letter clearly corroborates. It’s clear and uncomplicated.

Schiller's letter didn't say they don't like what Epic said about them. It said that Epic acknowledged in court that the last time they were talking this way about Apple's policies it was a prelude to violating their terms and Apple simply requested clarification on whether that would happen again before making the good faith gesture of readmitting Epic to the developer program.

It is clear and uncomplicated when you read it, so I don't understand why you and others are misrepresenting it.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

It's actually worse.

Epic itself is half owned by Chinese conglomerate Tencent.

That's what this is really about. Tencent owns tons of crappy, borderline fraudulent mobile "games" that are designed to addict customers with elements of gambling, only a small fraction of which are available in the App Store.

What you got to realize is that those products make 90% of their money from whales, aka the most profitable 1% of customers who are addicted and get drained for tens of thousands of Dollars.

iOS customers on average are wealthier targets and now they'll have unhindered access to this customer base.

I was going to post why this action is driven by Tencent about 12 pages earlier. Apple has announced, along with its entire supply chain manufacturers that by 2026 25% of all their manufacturing in China will move to India. As it stands that is nearly 10% now.

This, along with Google and other actors that spent the past two decades manufacturing in China will cause the Chinese economy to crater, not because they want to, but because it is just intelligent to globally diversify your manufacturing options to protect your company against future recessions/depressions wherever they occur in a global economy.

 

[brofkand]

How exactly did Epic make amends again?

Apple deleted their account like 3 years ago because Epic broke the rules. Epic and Apple came to an agreement and the account was reinstated. Epic has complained, sued, and publicly spoken out against Apple but that isn't against the developer agreement is it?

When you have been on the receiving end and you see the same repeated behaviour from the perpetrator then would you stick around to find out if going to be a repeat offender or would you take action to protect yourself before they repeat.

What repeated behavior? After Apple reinstated their developer account a few years ago I thought Epic has been behaving as far as their developer account goes. Have they broken the rules since?