Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account

[jz0309]

I did. But the insinuation of your and other posters is that the EU won’t dare to take on the US. But they will if it is in violation of EU law. US law doesn’t trump all other laws, and US rulings may not fly in other jurisdictions.

it's not about "dare", both Apple and Epic are US companies. in that long legal fight Epic lost and a judge rules that Apple has the right to terminate any and all of Epic's developer accounts, including subsidaries.
IF the EU "forces" Apple to give Epic access to the platform, Apple will fight that in EU courts, and the eventual outcome is not cut and dry and will take years. And it will impact other businesses here and there.
I think the EU knows that and therefor will not go down that way, that is my opinion.

 

[hans1972]

I remain convinced that, in their defense of Apple, too many folks don't actually understand what the actual 3rd party goals are.

We completely understand what developers wants. It's just that we don't share those goals.

Very often, I want the opposite of what developers wants, and that's why I consider so many of them be treated like enemies or violent criminals.

 

[jakey rolling]

Selling something to a business is a business relationship and it will be some kind of contract between those to companies.

I would not say that I have an ongoing business relationship with Wal Mart just because I bought a pack of hot dogs from them once. Most people can understand the wide chasm between a nominal fee for a development tool and the need for a long-term relationship predicated on the continued utilization of supplementary bundled services.

 

[cupcakes2000]

We completely understand what developers wants. It's just that we don't share those goals.

Very often, I want the opposite of what developers wants, and that's why I consider so many of them be treated like enemies or violent criminals.

I mean, what?!

 

[hans1972]

Off topic and consoles, and the differences, have been covered ad nauseam in all these back and forths.

Yes, but the DMA doesn't deal with computers or smartphones since they're not core platform services. Bringing up that game consoles should be treated differently because they're not general purpose computers show a complete lack of the DMA.

You and others have probably never read it.

 

[gatorvet96]

Game consoles are not marketed as general purpose computers. Smartphones are.
Aside from that, perhaps the EU should also focus on Sony, MS, and Nintendo. I think they would find, however, that any such enforcement would result in game consoles in the EU inflating in price to be similar to smartphones. Pretty sure EU citizens would not be happy spending $1200 for a Nintendo Switch.

I don’t think it is fair to make exceptions based on how much someone charges for their devices. Also who cares if it is marketed as a general device or gaming device. Both deserve to make money for apps that are installed on it. Or make everyone.

 

[jakey rolling]

IF the EU "forces" Apple to give Epic access to the platform, Apple will fight that in EU courts, and the eventual outcome is not cut and dry and will take years. And it will impact other businesses here and there. I think the EU knows that and therefor will not go down that way, that is my opinion.

The EU took the time to write a law specifically targeting Apple's anti competitive activities and were probably very well aware that Apple would fight any enforcement tooth and nail. It would be quite silly to assume that the EU went through all that trouble to write a law just to decide not to actually enforce it because there will be a court battle.

 

[gund1234]

Apple behaves like a huffy snotty brat!

Epic is behaving like they are entitled.

 

[gund1234]

If people are thinking that customers will benefit from this fight, you are wrong, we won't see a single penny, companies will keep the extra money.
if people want freedom to install any app store they want, they can buy an Android phone, people have options.
Government is not the solution to most problems.

 

[jz0309]

The EU took the time to write a law specifically targeting Apple's anti competitive activities and were probably very well aware that Apple would fight any enforcement tooth and nail. It would be quite silly to assume that the EU went through all that trouble to write a law just to decide not to actually enforce it because there will be a court battle.

the EU wrote that law to protect European businesses, this is a dispute between US companies ...
But, whatever, time will tell

 

[hans1972]

It's not Apple's device, it's my device. If Apple or Microsoft tried to control app distribution on macOS or Windows in the same way Apple is doing on iOS, people would be up in arms. Just because Apple has normalized this insane level of control doesn't make it acceptable.

I support Microsoft limiting application distribution on Windows and take full control.

 

[gund1234]

Why does everyone hate Epic so much? Does Tim Sweeney have an annoying voice or something? For the life of me I can't fathom why so many people celebrate when one company can stomp out another's ability to distribute apps on a major platform.

Because Epic wants competition, but Epic games does have exclusive games.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I don’t think it is fair to make exceptions based on how much someone charges for their devices. Also who cares if it is marketed as a general device or gaming device. Both deserve to make money for apps that are installed on it. Or make everyone.

See now. Why do they deserve to make money on apps installed on the device?

 

[AiPone12mini]

Perhaps EPIC should invest making games for Snapdragon Gen 2, 3+ etc powerful Android phones that are open and just Quit Apple.

 

[gund1234]

It should worry absolutely everyone, even the fanboys, that Apple thinks they have the right to decide whether or not people are allowed to install certain apps from certain developers on devices that they own.

If people want freedom to install any apps then they can buy Android phones.

 

[Timpetus]

But a subsidiary company can be independent from the parent company. So US court might not apply to this particular subsidary company in Sweden. But I will find it very strange if the EU forces Apple to accept Epic as a customer, because Hermes and Porsche are much worse when it comes to refusing customers.

In the end, Android has about 70% market share in the EU. Apple should make it 100% by putting Android on their iPhones in the EU because there is no point of iOS anymore.

The subsidiary in Sweden is still trying to make an agreement with the same US-based Apple, and I believe the possibility of Epic's subsidiaries being based elsewhere was countenanced in the court's decision.

 

[gund1234]

Does Apple have to allow anyone to have access to their development tools? Or does Apple get to have a say ?

Apple should make their Chip design, iOS/MacOS open source to benefit every one and China especially

 

[cupcakes2000]

If people want freedom to install any apps then they can buy Android phones.

You keep repeating this, but it’s irrelevant to an iOS user - so stop it!

 

[gund1234]

Imagine building a company with blood, sweat, and tears that got as big as Apple one day. You gained all these customers based on your product offerings and services. One day, another company decides that they are entitled to take your customers and try to move them over to their app store and not pay you for the platform you created to begin with that gives them access to your customers. Go a little bit further and have a government jump in and tell you how to run your business. Crazy!

Curious why Sony Playstation Store and XBOX doesn't get the same scrutiny with their digital store fronts and 30% fees?

Epic games also takes a cut right ?
as some one said, can apple launch Apple music in Epic games app for free ?

 

[hans1972]

Are you arguing that an US company doing business in the EU and entering a contract in the EU is subject to US law instead of EU law?

It could be if the EU company agreed to the contract being under US law.

 

[GrayFlannel]

It wasn't a fair characterization as I understood it.

@Cchase88754321 accurately pointed out that Apple didn’t like what Epic said about them which Schiller’s letter clearly corroborates. It’s clear and uncomplicated.

 

[jakey rolling]

I don’t think it is fair to make exceptions based on how much someone charges for their devices.

Perhaps, but when crafting laws that govern entire countries, it would be incredibly stupid for a government to ignore the differences in the different marketplaces and industries that they are trying to regulate. The very question of "why is Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo allowed to act differently than Apple or Google" ignores the fact that these are two very different market segments with very different competitive landscapes, and that enforcing the same rules on one will have a far different effect on the market than enforcing those same rules on the other.

Also who cares if it is marketed as a general device or gaming device.

Well, for starters, we're not using Nintendo Switches to run stock counts and manage inventory issues in our warehouses. We're using Android or iOS based scanning devices. Our employees aren't using their XBoxes to track time and expenses to whatever construction projects they are on. They are using laptops and iPads.

Both deserve to make money for apps that are installed on it. Or make everyone.

Sure. I'm pretty sure charging $100/yr on a development kit and $1200 for an iPhone goes a long way to helping Apple make billions of dollars on those devices.

 

[0339327]

It's sad to see so many people supporting the Goliath

I'm not sure if many folks realize that it ultimately comes around to "get you too" when we have the entrenched power "winning".

Root for the smaller guys -- the underdogs -- the upstarts

(relatively speaking in this case - relative power matters a lot here)

That USED TO BE APPLE!
That is what created the company we loved

1. Root for what’s right! Being a “small guy” doesn’t make you’re right. In fact, many times the small guys lacks experience and knowledge and is, in fact, wrong.

2. Compared to most businesses, Epic is a mammoth. The small guys have revenues in the thousands, not millions or billions.

3. In this case, I don’t really care anymore. The EU makes up ad-hoc rules and fines. Meanwhile the US said Apple did no wrong.

4. Is there a freedom of enterprise or not? Considering the EU is mandating side loading, Apple shouldn’t need to deal with Epic anyway. Let them do their own things and stay far away from the App Store.

5. The tech world is controlled by a handful of companies that compete with other. I understand that the options are limited, but in 2007 there were many more options yet the consumer choose to abandon RIM/Blackberry, Windows, Palm, and others in favor of Apple and Android.

 

[hans1972]

Apple prevents me from enjoying Epic's content on my phone.

Didn't you but the software as-is? Why buy stuff which doesn't satisfy your requirements?

 

[Abazigal]

I think I am starting to see what Apple is trying to do here.

Apple Terminated Epic’s EU Developer Account

Popcorn-eating-wise, I’m genuinely curious about Apple using a U.S. court decision as grounds for banning Epic’s Swedish subsidiary from holding a developer account.

daringfireball.net

Apple is possibly testing how much jurisdiction they have in deciding who gets to operate a third-party App Store on iOS, and who doesn't. Because if it's not up to them, then who gets to decide, because I don't think the EU wants the responsibility of vetting, approving and monitoring them.

It also appears that Apple had absolutely no intent of allowing Epic back onto their platform anytime soon. The approval that Epic supposedly received then was part of an automated approval system that was subsequently caught and overturned by Apple.

So it seems like the DMA may end up handing Apple more power than before, if they now get to block app stores and evidently don't even need to justify them to anybody but themselves (unlike on their own App Store, where they can only boot apps for violating App Store rules?).