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No one said anything about the FULL version of the OS. Your 2020 iPad is obviously not going to get features exclusive for M-series processors but that's not to day you won't be able to upgrade to a new iPadOS and get features that are non-M-series exclusive.
The full version is what this thread is about. The 2020 iPads should get all the same features as the M series.
It’s not useful if you need a larger screen. It’s the opposite actually.
If you need a larger screen get a iMac.
Mate, it’s a tablet. It’s just a big one. It’s not complicated.
The computer with a folio keyboard, and trackpad, and is heavier than half the mac laptops is not a tablet. Just because you can remove the doors from the jeep doesn't make it a motorcycle, and just because you can detach the iPad pro accessories does not make it a tablet.
I guess we just disagree. For me, the Pro is a much better iPad, YMMV.
The pro is a great iPad if what you really need is a laptop.
The numbers from Fortune were in the graph. It would be nice to know how they are counting.
Yeah. We don't know if they are treating Amazon and Mattress warehouse as each having one server, if they are counting how many clients they can support, or the number of HD. We don't even know if they are claiming that every copy of Windows includes a server. If we look at say, what does the top 1000 servers use we see MS drop to single-digit percentages.
 
I am a retired software engineer who has worked in the field for nearly 30 years and I can make some pretty good educated guesses as to what Apple is saying.

Let's tackle the main reason I think Stage Manager is limited to M1's. What many people here say is correct in that the amount of real physical RAM and flash speed make a difference in terms of performance, but something just about no one has mentioned is that the A-series do not appear to have the controllers to handle virtual memory, an absolute requirement for Stage Manager to even begin to function. I'm sure most of you have watched a ton of YouTube videos where people have examined how Apple builds their SoC's. They put in exactly what is needed for their long term plans, no more and no less. They customize their SoC's according to their target plans, such as putting Thunderbolt controllers or ProRes encoders directly into the silicon to boost performance, or even interface transistors to help tie two or more chips together into a single SoC like the M1 Ultra. These are not general purpose processors.

Virtual memory is no different. Requisite controllers are needed to efficiently handle the tremendous amounts of RAM contents that must be moved to and from a swap file. You'll notice that there is no shipping OS that runs on an A-series SoC that supports virtual memory. So why does anyone think the capability is present in the A-series chips? Apple builds into their SoC's only what is required. Anything else is an unnecessary risk since space on a silicon wafer is extremely valuable. The bigger the die, the fewer the chips and the higher the chance of low yields. This is why the A15 chip is left out even though the cores are newer than those of the A14, from which the M1 is based.

It has nothing to do with the performance of its CPU or GPU cores, but has to do with its memory and storage controllers. If they aren't built to handle virtual memory's demands, you're going to have very poor performance without the hardware support. You can simulate all of it in software, but it's not going to have acceptable performance. As an example, hardware ProRes encoder/decoders are orders of magnitude faster than software ones, which the M1 had to rely on, but the M1 Pro/Max/Ultra and M2 benefit significantly from the hardware encoders/decoders built into them. The M-series chips have the required controllers while the A-series chips do not since the M-series chips were built to run a desktop OS where virtual memory is second nature. It was never a requirement for A-series chips to do the same.

Now there are those who bring up the A12Z in the developer's toolkit that managed to run macOS. However, the dev kit was not a shipping system. It had a processor that was the latest capable of running the same instruction set as the future M1 would. The A12Z was Apple's only choice at the time. But how did it run macOS? It didn't without the help of supporting chips. Like an Intel or AMD system, the A12Z wasn't the only chip on the motherboard.

Windows PC's have a zillion support chips to handle things that the CPU/GPU can't. This is why every new release of an Intel/AMD CPU is accompanied by a new chipset. Some may be familiar with the terms, Northbridge and Southbridge. Those are chips that handle I/O for the system because PC's are rather distributed and not concentrated into an SoC. So was the A12Z Mac mini dev kit. It wasn't a shipping system, so Apple engineers cobbled together parts to handle things the A12Z could not handle on its own.

Among that was optimized memory controllers to handle virtual memory. So just because a kluged machine that eventually ended up in the trash bin could run macOS doesn't mean A12X/Z iPads could as well. Those iPads weren't equipped with the support chips the dev kit had and therefore cannot run virtual memory. No virtual memory, no Stage Manager. And as some have said, the dev kit had plenty of real RAM, too. Even if someone were to hack the system to "enable" Stage Manager on A-series iPads, the result would probably be an instant crash or severe out of memory errors. The A-series simply do not have the necessary hardware.

Stick an Intel CPU into a system without its chipset and you get a non-functioning system. The same applies to the A12Z. No support chips, no Stage Manager. No single chip works alone, not even an SoC.

We all guessed last year that Apple stuck the M1 into the iPad Pro because they didn't want to bother making an A14X. I guess we were all wrong. Apple apparently had a roadmap and made sure the 2021 iPad Pros had the required hardware to run desktop-class OS features. Apple doesn't do anything without planning years in advance. One thing it guarantees is that future iPad Pros and Airs will continue to have M-series SoC's. It'll be interesting to see what future features Apple has in store for M-series iPads.

I am extrapolating what Apple's press release said based on a lot of years of experience and having watched the evolution of hardware systems from cheese wedge (early designs are done on a board that looks like a giant cheese wedge) to completed systems. I could potentially be wrong since I have no inside information. The strongest evidence is the lack of virtual memory on any A-series OS which points to a lack of any hardware support, especially with the omission of the A15. Feel free to disagree, but this explanation seems to fit what we know. If you do disagree, tell me why. Please no, "it's because I feel they're lying" arguments. That's just a waste of time.
Excellent
 
The full version is what this thread is about. The 2020 iPads should get all the same features as the M series.

If you need a larger screen get a iMac.

The computer with a folio keyboard, and trackpad, and is heavier than half the mac laptops is not a tablet. Just because you can remove the doors from the jeep doesn't make it a motorcycle, and just because you can detach the iPad pro accessories does not make it a tablet.

The pro is a great iPad if what you really need is a laptop.

Yeah. We don't know if they are treating Amazon and Mattress warehouse as each having one server, if they are counting how many clients they can support, or the number of HD. We don't even know if they are claiming that every copy of Windows includes a server. If we look at say, what does the top 1000 servers use we see MS drop to single-digit percentages.
Really, though, the iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard is more like a PowerBook Duo with the Duo Dock. You can definitely use it without the Duo Dock (touch screen keyboard and pointing, handwriting input, or Smart Keyboard cover if you absolutely need hardware keys but want as light of a package as possible). It’s a nice to have, but absolutely not something that’s a 100% necessary part of your portable kit.
 
Of course it does. Would you really want an engineer to write your company press releases? No one except another engineer would understand it. Fortunately I'm an engineer and I perfectly understood the translation from marketing speak to engineering speak, so I know what Apple was trying to say.

As an engineer who has to deal with Marketing folk all too often, we speak very different languages and even Google doesn’t have a translator for that. I speak math, they speak Darmok.
 
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Sorry folks. Last year's models are like last week's newspaper on the floor of the bird cage. One did not need to be a rocket designer to realize that the M1 series was the future. Covid limited availability of many components. I expect the M1 to filter down the iPad line just like the laptop line.

You want the latest features, then pony up to the processor that is designed to run those features and quit belly aching. I see most of the complaints coming from false entitlements and or cheap skates who expect the five year old (fill in the blank) device or car to have the capability of the latest and greatest devices.

My 2019 16" Intel fully loaded MacBook Pro is outperformed by the first generation 2020 M1 MacBookAir. Surprised? No.

Apple said they were making their own silicone and all expected it would be more performance than the Intel world. One would also expect the M1 for iPads to have a feature set expanded beyond the "A" series.

I still have the Intel 16" laptop but added a fully loaded 14" M1 Max. Buying the fully loaded model helps future proof the device for the coming new features. I have a fully loaded M1 11" iPad and series 6 mini iPad I use as well for consumption at offices.

The 2022 Toyota Tundra gets 20 mpg vs last years 15 mpg. You want the better mpg, buy the new model. Pretty damn simple concept. There is no way to retrofit the new drive train into the old chassis.
 
I am a retired software engineer who has worked in the field for nearly 30 years and I can make some pretty good educated guesses as to what Apple is saying.

Let's tackle the main reason I think Stage Manager is limited to M1's. What many people here say is correct in that the amount of real physical RAM and flash speed make a difference in terms of performance, but something just about no one has mentioned is that the A-series do not appear to have the controllers to handle virtual memory, an absolute requirement for Stage Manager to even begin to function. I'm sure most of you have watched a ton of YouTube videos where people have examined how Apple builds their SoC's. They put in exactly what is needed for their long term plans, no more and no less. They customize their SoC's according to their target plans, such as putting Thunderbolt controllers or ProRes encoders directly into the silicon to boost performance, or even interface transistors to help tie two or more chips together into a single SoC like the M1 Ultra. These are not general purpose processors.

Virtual memory is no different. Requisite controllers are needed to efficiently handle the tremendous amounts of RAM contents that must be moved to and from a swap file. You'll notice that there is no shipping OS that runs on an A-series SoC that supports virtual memory. So why does anyone think the capability is present in the A-series chips? Apple builds into their SoC's only what is required. Anything else is an unnecessary risk since space on a silicon wafer is extremely valuable. The bigger the die, the fewer the chips and the higher the chance of low yields. This is why the A15 chip is left out even though the cores are newer than those of the A14, from which the M1 is based.

It has nothing to do with the performance of its CPU or GPU cores, but has to do with its memory and storage controllers. If they aren't built to handle virtual memory's demands, you're going to have very poor performance without the hardware support. You can simulate all of it in software, but it's not going to have acceptable performance. As an example, hardware ProRes encoder/decoders are orders of magnitude faster than software ones, which the M1 had to rely on, but the M1 Pro/Max/Ultra and M2 benefit significantly from the hardware encoders/decoders built into them. The M-series chips have the required controllers while the A-series chips do not since the M-series chips were built to run a desktop OS where virtual memory is second nature. It was never a requirement for A-series chips to do the same.

Now there are those who bring up the A12Z in the developer's toolkit that managed to run macOS. However, the dev kit was not a shipping system. It had a processor that was the latest capable of running the same instruction set as the future M1 would. The A12Z was Apple's only choice at the time. But how did it run macOS? It didn't without the help of supporting chips. Like an Intel or AMD system, the A12Z wasn't the only chip on the motherboard.

Windows PC's have a zillion support chips to handle things that the CPU/GPU can't. This is why every new release of an Intel/AMD CPU is accompanied by a new chipset. Some may be familiar with the terms, Northbridge and Southbridge. Those are chips that handle I/O for the system because PC's are rather distributed and not concentrated into an SoC. So was the A12Z Mac mini dev kit. It wasn't a shipping system, so Apple engineers cobbled together parts to handle things the A12Z could not handle on its own.

Among that was optimized memory controllers to handle virtual memory. So just because a kluged machine that eventually ended up in the trash bin could run macOS doesn't mean A12X/Z iPads could as well. Those iPads weren't equipped with the support chips the dev kit had and therefore cannot run virtual memory. No virtual memory, no Stage Manager. And as some have said, the dev kit had plenty of real RAM, too. Even if someone were to hack the system to "enable" Stage Manager on A-series iPads, the result would probably be an instant crash or severe out of memory errors. The A-series simply do not have the necessary hardware.

Stick an Intel CPU into a system without its chipset and you get a non-functioning system. The same applies to the A12Z. No support chips, no Stage Manager. No single chip works alone, not even an SoC.

We all guessed last year that Apple stuck the M1 into the iPad Pro because they didn't want to bother making an A14X. I guess we were all wrong. Apple apparently had a roadmap and made sure the 2021 iPad Pros had the required hardware to run desktop-class OS features. Apple doesn't do anything without planning years in advance. One thing it guarantees is that future iPad Pros and Airs will continue to have M-series SoC's. It'll be interesting to see what future features Apple has in store for M-series iPads.

I am extrapolating what Apple's press release said based on a lot of years of experience and having watched the evolution of hardware systems from cheese wedge (early designs are done on a board that looks like a giant cheese wedge) to completed systems. I could potentially be wrong since I have no inside information. The strongest evidence is the lack of virtual memory on any A-series OS which points to a lack of any hardware support, especially with the omission of the A15. Feel free to disagree, but this explanation seems to fit what we know. If you do disagree, tell me why. Please no, "it's because I feel they're lying" arguments. That's just a waste of time.

Great technical discussion however it is just an assumption on why Apple made this decision. Maybe it is a mix of 6k and SM. I do know in the past we had great multi-window support on JB devices. Now the 6k ….

If there is a real technical limitation, tell us Apple IF you are going to say anything. This current “reason” is to 90%+ of folks either Huh? Or don’t care. The remainder tend to question a reason that looks more like a marketing crafted excuse. Wrong audience.

btw - thanks for the post. Good reading.
 
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In the entire history of humanity, has anyone ever created a public presentation to show how badly their product runs? No, and they never will, but that's what you're asking for.

I'm pretty sure even if they somehow did, you'd find a reason to say the demo was artificially staged and that it really runs great. You don't believe them. That's just fine.

Yes. Recently Apple.
60hz vs 120hz.
 
When I switched to the Mac, I started with an iMac 2006 C2D with 1GB of memory. Coming from Windows, I was blown away by its smooth animations (Expose, Front Row, etc.) and multi-tasking capabilities. The last couple of A-series chips are so much better than that old T7200 chip, I’m sure Apple could have found a way to make it work. The Mac Mini A12 ran macOS wonderfully and it didn’t have that weird limit on opened windows.
It also had 16GB of ram.
There is always going to be a cut off that pisses people off. Apple better than anyone knows this.
Could they make it work? Sure, I bet they could make it work all the way down to a A10 chip. Would it work well enough to not butcher the experience? Most likely not. As there are more than enough iPad's out there that simply can't do this anyway. While unfortunately a "Pro" iPad is added to this list of unable to perform well enough. It's better to not add it. Verses adding it and having it "suck".
 
Not true. Multitasking was introduced in iOS 4 alongside background images. The first iPhones closed the app the moment you hit the home button if I recall correctly
That was a purely user/app level restriction. The OS, the darwin kernel and system, multitasked just fine from day one, and did so fully for any process that wasnt restricted.
 
With the new media engine in the M2, I wonder if that will allow desktop Pro apps on M2 iPads?
Would that be an excuse that they were waiting for the media engine?

Likely not Unless it is already in the pipeline for M1.
Looking at some of the technical aspects the M2 is more like a M1.5. An M1 with more cores.
Great for video though.
 
Well, once a lier always a lier, Apple lied so often that even the die hard fans don’t believe what they say anymore.
Don’t forget that we are on a pro-Apple site, and even here most of its users don’t believe that BS.

Apple is working hard to f’up their reputation, it’s about time to eject Tim Crook.
This seems like an overreaction.

I cannot say with certainty whether Apple (as a company) is a "liar" or not.

All I care about is whether or not I am happy with Apple's current products, and I have to say that I am quite happy.

As far as Tim staying or going I don't care either way, but given the company's financials it seems you'll be waiting a while for him to get "ejected".
 
Apple actually surprised me with this. What this statement says is anyone who bought a regular iPad or an iPad Mini this year cannot avail themselves of the new features of iOS 16. I wonder what the iOS 16 upgrade will look like for non-M1 iPad owners.
 
Sorry folks. Last year's models are like last week's newspaper on the floor of the bird cage. One did not need to be a rocket designer to realize that the M1 series was the future. Covid limited availability of many components. I expect the M1 to filter down the iPad line just like the laptop line.

Strictly speaking, the M1 iPad Pros are last year’s models. :p
 
That’s why I don’t get why you think they did it deliberately just to force people to upgrade?

If they thought it was a killer feature that they could easily add to existing iPads I think they’d just do it as logic dictates that they would sell more devices at every price range.

The most likely explanation is the one they gave. I.e. the M1 iPads are more powerful and can do this work more easily with less performance degradation and that’s why it’s only implemented there.

I’m more confused why they couldn’t add full screen to external monitors for other iPads rather than just the stage manager stuff. And why it needs a mouse / keyboard plugged in? I feel apple don’t know how to expand the iPad as a device and are very wary of turning it into a mac.
They are actually hoping it will be an enticing enough feature to encourage users to upgrade. So, it’s hoping here.
 
The full version is what this thread is about. The 2020 iPads should get all the same features as the M series.

They won’t for the very reasons Apple said, no matter how much whining goes on here.
If you need a larger screen get a iMac.

If you need a smaller one get an iPhone.
The computer with a folio keyboard, and trackpad, and is heavier than half the mac laptops is not a tablet.

Sure it is.

The pro is a great iPad if what you really need is a laptop.

Nah, it’s great because of its versatility and power.

Yeah. We don't know if they are treating Amazon and Mattress warehouse as each having one server, if they are counting how many clients they can support, or the number of HD. We don't even know if they are claiming that every copy of Windows includes a server.

That’s always the problem if we can’t see the underlying data. even so, even RedHat’s numbers, a company that would benefit form minimizing them, shows Windows as a serious player.

If we look at say, what does the top 1000 servers use we see MS drop to single-digit percentages.

What I’ve seen is for the top 1000 websites, not servers. Even so, tha has teh same problem as other conclusions since we don’t know if websites are running on separate servers, or are clients on 1 server, etc. In addition, teh top 1000 sites are a small percentage of all the servers in use and a subset of what servers are used for in computing.
 
Sure it is.
In that case, the Mac Studio is the most powerful tablet on the market. Get that one instead. At some point we have to draw the line, and even if Apple calls the iPad pro a tablet doesn't make it so. Marketing is marketing and hardware is hardware. The pro is an entry-level MacBook, not a tablet.
 
Shame? Why?
Well, the way you worded it was that you tried to work it out using an iPad instead of a laptop (I assumed that as meaning you wanted to give it a go 🤷). You couldn’t get it to work.

Therefore: that’s a shame.

I could get an iPad to fit in my workflow.

Therefore: it worked for me.

Don’t worry. It’s a correct use of English.
 
The 2022 Toyota Tundra gets 20 mpg vs last years 15 mpg. You want the better mpg, buy the new model. Pretty damn simple concept. There is no way to retrofit the new drive train into the old chassis.
Except, as has been mentioned over and over again, the newest iPads don’t have M1 chips. It’s not a matter of being “cheap” if someone buys the newest Apple product only to discover that the update works with hardware that is over a year old but not a few months old.
 
In that case, the Mac Studio is the most powerful tablet on the market. Get that one instead.

Yea, as soon as it gets a built in screen and battery power.

At some point we have to draw the line, and even if Apple calls the iPad pro a tablet doesn't make it so.

No, it's a tablet because it is a tablet, just like the mini is a tablet even if it's really just an overrated iPhone that often doesn't even have all the capabilities of an iPhone.

Except, as has been mentioned over and over again, the newest iPads don’t have M1 chips.

By your argument that's because they are tablets, not MacBooks and thus need not have the same features as real computers.

It’s not a matter of being “cheap” if someone buys the newest Apple product only to discover that the update works with hardware that is over a year old but not a few months old.

Of course they don't get those features, only MacBooks get them, thus it makes sense for the iPad Pro to get them while the iPhone/iPads don't since they are just tablets and not real computers.

Shirley you understand that.
 
Yea, as soon as it gets a built in screen and battery power.



No, it's a tablet because it is a tablet, just like the mini is a tablet even if it's really just an overrated iPhone that often doesn't even have all the capabilities of an iPhone.



By your argument that's because they are tablets, not MacBooks and thus need not have the same features as real computers.



Of course they don't get those features, only MacBooks get them, thus it makes sense for the iPad Pro to get them while the iPhone/iPads don't since they are just tablets and not real computers.

Shirley you understand that.
LOL. So you agree with me, but only when it lets you disagree?
 
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