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Austin is a rat pit. The weather sucks, the people suck, the local government is terrible, the racism is blatant and outrageous, bigotry in every fabric of daily life tears families art at an enormously high rate, and most had rather cut you ear to ear with a beer bottle than look at you.
I was going to post that but I am from CA and except the people, government, torn families, cut you, everything is different here.

Apple is trying to reduce risk by physically spreading. Resistance is not only not futile but is surprisingly intense and evidence of why business cannot thrive in this country.

Rocketman
 
Welcome!

Wow. They will go to Phoenix. Too bad for Texas.

C'mon to Phoenix: Sunny skys, no hurricanes, no earthquakes, no volcanos, inexpensive property, extraordinary geology and biota, great universities, Intel expanding here also, Phoenix is closer to Cupertino than TX is, Phoenix a major transportation hub, home to sports, the world's largest municipal park and a plethora of regional parks. Also (despite what some media might imply) one of America's friendliest population centers!
 
It is not a zero-sum game. If the income to the local government generated by a business exceeds the cost of the tax breaks given to the business, then the local government realizes a net increase in their revenue, regardless of what other businesses are being taxed. In this case, the long-term economic gain to the local economy is likely to be substantial.

It doesn't.
 
For all Austin's reputation as a progressive haven, the city government is incredibly pro-business, and has been kowtowing to developers and corporations for decades. The city is getting overbuilt and quality of life is deteriorating for average citizens because for the Powers That Be, it's all about attracting big hotels, big corporations, big national retailers, big real estate developments. In addition to its largesse toward Apple, the city just gave a massive handout to a convention hotel that had already made it clear it was coming here regardless. Who cares if longtime homeowners have to sell and move away because their property taxes are through the roof? Somebody from out of state will see Austin on one of the many Top 10 lists it has made, move here and pay $600K for that house that was $150K 10 years ago and not even care that the taxes are now $8000/year.

So as one of the many citizens who can barely afford the rising cost of living, I'm glad to see Travis County actually, belatedly, start to pay close attention to what they're getting in return for corporate welfare for Apple.

Of course, as the proud owner of 100 shares of Apple stock, a tiny little part of me is going "Yeah, let those teachers and police officers pay higher property taxes, to make up for the taxes Apple won't be paying! I want my stock to go up another 1%!"

BTW, there has been much discussion about how serious a rival Phoenix really was/is:

http://www.usatoday.com/USCP/PNI/Business/2012-03-23-PNI0323biz-applePNIBrd_ST_U.htm
 
3,600 people paying income tax and sales tax and homeowner taxes and car taxes provides lots of revenue.

It's up to Texas and Arizona to fight over that revenue.

What do you suggest? If you're on that city council you'd say "yeah, sure. Go send all that money to Arizona. We don't need it"? (Not to mention that your unemployment rate is worse since there are 3,600 fewer jobs than there otherwise would have been.)

That's not a move that will get you reelected.
Then give us a solution. What should that city council do?


Texas doesn't pay state income Tax 0%, property tax is only around 1% once a year and auto is like $75 less than 1% a year! So I think Austin will be ok, Texas has one of the best unemployment %'s in the country.
 
3,600 people paying income tax and sales tax and homeowner taxes and car taxes provides lots of revenue.

For starters, Texas doesn't have income taxes, and all other taxes are incredibly low. An influx of 3600 (odds are, many of these new employees are from outside Travis County) might have a significant impact on local services and infrastructure, and the county has a right to be concerned about that and expect fair payment to use those services and infrastructure. Secondly, it's not like the unemployment rate is hurting: Texas has an unemployment rate at a healthy 7%, and Travis County has an even better 6%. While improving the economy is always important, job creation is not at the forefront here. Travis County can afford to haggle with Apple, and Apple can afford to take a $30 million hit. Furthermore, even if Apple's fortunes were to suddenly change (a certainly plausible scenario), that only gives Travis County a reason to haggle, so as to avoid losing money outright.

To give an example of what happens when you simply cave to every corporation's demand, look at what happened with San Francisco: They gave startups in the late 1990s a bunch of tax incentives with a 6-year expiration. By the time that expiration came around, all those companies had disappeared for various reasons (buyouts or bankruptcy), with the city not gaining a cent from them. Around the same time, a bunch of corporations forced out the 1.5% payroll tax, causing further losses in revenue and declines in quality of service for public transit and education. Now Edwin Lee, Willie Brown's Shih Tzu, is repeating the same mistake his master did by basically giving up taxing the current generation of startups, with a recent instance of caving to Twitter's demand of refusing to pay a measly $875,000 in taxes shortly after being given nearly 1000x that by the Saudi royal family. Twitter threatened to move to Brisbane, a very inaccessible and useless town to the immediate south of the city, if Lee didn't cooperate. (Notably, Wal-Mart has their internet operations there as well, and it hasn't particularly helped Brisbane)

Finally, let's not forget what Mitt Romney said: Corporations are people too. Thus, they should expect to pay taxes, rather than take every damn opportunity to avoid them.
 
Apple is trying to reduce risk by physically spreading. Resistance is not only not futile but is surprisingly intense and evidence of why business cannot thrive in this country.

Rocketman

Don't make me laugh. Businesses cannot thrive because they need to not pay taxes? If that is the case, then they are not running businesses, but criminal rackets. Businesses do not exist in some separate bubble, above the call of mean ol' big government and dem dirty libruls. They exist in the real world, and while they can create jobs, there is a cost to being a business: They use the same roads and the same services as anyone else. Who owns those roads? The state and local governments. Who runs those services? Local governments. As a consequence, a municipal government has a right to be worried when, for example, 3000+ more cars start clogging the highways during rush hour (given this is Texas, carpooling and/or shuttle would laughed off stage) without some form of reparation, especially one that can be used to perhaps alleviate said highway clogging. Now unless Apple is willing to force their employees to live on-site, build roads specifically for company use, and create other infrastructure (hospitals, fire department, power grid, etc.) to suit the needs of their employees, they are going to use those highways, and those services. Travis County is only asking for what is close enough to fair with some compromise.

But wait, you say. Why don't they use income, sales, or property taxes to get what they want through these new employees? Well, barring aside the fact that Texas has no income tax and very low taxes otherwise, what you are suggesting is that employees take on the additional burden of what their employers should be paying (since, more often than not, those forms of taxes are regressive and tend to rise). The words greedy, imbalanced, selfish, and sociopathic are not strong enough words to describe what you are suggesting. Immoral may be an appropriate term, but most of your type (not saying you specifically) seem to assign that to petty kulturkampf issues. Remember, there is a cost to everything. Plenty of successful and thriving businesses have paid it in the past. If you can't pay that cost, you should not be doing business.
 
Of course...and I totally agree. But I do think, in general, businesses run America too much and get the better end of the stick on a vast majority of business incentives.

I'm not saying we need widespread reform or that businesses get totally shafted...but it just seems the towns/states concede so much.

That's just part of living in a consumerist society, and that's a discussion not fit for macrumors!
 
Forget about that it's Apple for a second. Why shouldn't American corporations that are doing well pay the same taxes as every other company? Isn't the American thing to help out the American economy during its time of need?
 
I find it funny that some people think Apple should get tax breaks, but other big corporations should not. I think the fanboys are showing.
 
Share the Wealth

Apple is the top earning tech company in the USA with record breaking revenue, mounds of profits, and is only looking up,up,up with the new iPad, next iPhone, and all the Macs they can sell!

So, Apple doesn't need tax breaks.

Apple should listen to the 99% of the rest of the country, pay their fair share, and stop treating the good people of Austin, Texas like their underpaid suicidal FoxConn sweatshop workers.

Occupy Apple! - The Buffett Rule should apply to corporations too.
 
Tax breaks are wrong?

Everyone on this forum recently prepared their tax forms, and it's safe to say that everyone, regardless of income, tried their best to pay as little as possible. Why should Apple do any less?
 
Go to Phoenix. I live in Austin and see NO reason to give a corporation
with 100 BILLION in the bank tax breaks.

Corporations just play cities against each other to blackmail them into these tax breaks.
 
For one thing, we didn't ask for special tax breaks to be created just for ourselves :)

Of course you did. You asked for breaks for childcare, college tuition, home ownership, the tax collector's appraisal of your house, etc., etc., etc. You just went through an agent (your congressperson, etc.) instead of negotiating directly. I've been involved with new plant construction, and once cities get wind of expansion plans they begin knocking on your door with all sorts of offers why their town should get the plant, and the jobs that go with it. Some offer a good pool of potential employees or great weather, or low housing costs. Others offer tax incentives and in some cases will even share the construction costs. Any company that wouldn't consider the best deal would undoubtedly have to answer some difficult questions from their shareholders.
 
Careful who you call ignorant. Local governments set tax rates to pay for local services, such as police, fire, schools, water, sewer, roads, etc. If they allow some taxpayers to pay less than their share, then by definition, the rest of the locality's taxpayers have to make up the difference. The argument that the jobs created offset the shortfall is null, since computing their tax value is speculative, at best, and as far as I can tell, nobody even tries to make this calculation. It's a subsidy, plain and simple. Companies threaten local governments with moving or locating elsewhere, and get a gift of the taxpayer's money.

I have read several of you posts and you have a hard time getting around this concept that the county's tax revenue base is not fixed, it can grow or shrink, depending on the amount of improved property, or sales tax.

Estimating the gain to Travis county's tax base is not speculative. There will be an increase of approximately $304 million in improved property. Travis county's property tax rate for the city of Austin is 0.4811/$1000. That's about $1.47M/yr. The center will employ approximately 3600 people. If the majority of the employees are call center representatives their average salary will be something near $30K. That's about $108M/yr coming into the county from Apple. There is no income tax, but the local sales tax is 8.25%. If we estimate that one-third of peoples salaries is spent on goods and services, i.e. the local economy, then approximately $8.9M/yr in sales tax will be collected, although I have no idea what part of that will go to the county. These two factors alone suggest that Apple's presence will add somewhere in the neighborhood of $10M/yr in tax revenue to the state and county.

According to the article:
"After the county approved its incentives offer to Apple in principle April 17, the total state and local government incentives package to the company was estimated at $35 million to $36 million over 10 to 15 years.

Of that amount, $21 million would come from the state's Texas Enterprise Fund, $8.6 million would come from the City of Austin, and between $5.4 million and $6.4 million would come from Travis County."

The language "come from" does imply "rebates" or direct payments; more likely it is taxes the state and local governments will forego collecting. It is not paid out from the budget. So they are passing on $36M they would normally collect to get a revenue of $100-150M over 10-15 years. Clearly the state and county are coming out ahead, not to mention the 3600 people that get jobs.

Again, this is not a zero-sum game. There are no other call centers in Austin, to my knowledge. They are not taking business away from a competitor. This is pure commercial growth for the region. I cannot understand your truculence on this subject.
 
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Those who still think that corporations in general and Apple in particular need any tax breaks should read this article: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Global Taxes
According to this article Apple pays the lowest tax rate among peer companies. They are by far the greediest ones.

who cares?

their employees pay sales and income tax and obviously the tax men collect more than 0 so they come out ahead
 
Those who still think that corporations in general and Apple in particular need any tax breaks should read this article: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Global Taxes
According to this article Apple pays the lowest tax rate among peer companies. They are by far the greediest ones.

The trouble isn't that they're gaming the system, they're doing what a company should do. Just like Warren Buffet, they're trying to minimize their taxes.

The problem is, the system is so gameable.
 
The trouble isn't that they're gaming the system, they're doing what a company should do. Just like Warren Buffet, they're trying to minimize their taxes.

The problem is, the system is so gameable.

Speaking of gameable

I wish I could use such games with my personal taxes. There are pretty much two tax rates in this country: standard rates and better rates you can take advantage of if you employ teams of lawyers and accountants.

Bureaucracy is the problem. Simplify everything to make it easy to understand and impossible to game.
 
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