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Switch platforms then. That'll fix 'em. I don't understand the perpetually bashing crowd. If I thought of Apple they way some on these forums apparently do I wouldn't want to be their customer. On the other hand some people bitch about everything just to hear themselves bitch.

Switch forums then. That'll fix us. I don't understand the perpetually bashing crowd. If I thought of Macrumors the way some on these forums apparently do, I wouldn't want to be a member. On the other hand, some people bitch about everything just to hear themselves bitch.

:p
 
You still haven't answered the central problem:

Why is it that those 100 calculator apps which clearly duplicate iPhone functionality are ok (as well as weather apps), but not PodCaster and/or MailWrangler?

So instead, we will start seeing EVEN MORE useless apps. Thanks Apple. Thanks.
Well this podcaster app is useless to me and I wouldn't use it, just like some of those calculator apps are useless to you. It is up to Apple to decide what gets in their store, sure some people will complain that their app got rejected by evil Apple and have some symphatizers but the world is not fair.

You people are the same people who say Apple should release their OS that they developed to help differentiate themselves from others to the likes of Dell, HP or else they are anticompetitive. Unbelieveable. If it was you guys in the same situation as Apple I'm sure you wouldn't make a different decision from them, in fact yours might even be worse.
 
p.s. anyone else see the irony in the Non-disclosure warning being leaked to the public? :p

NDA its getting old.
why Apple don't reinvent the vinyl tape and call it iNDA? this will shut up the developers mouth more quickly

Apple catch open source from developers for its OS X, then advertises as one of the best then close the OS to its products (ipod, mac, iphone..). There are developers out there that made contribuitions; closing a plataform with monopolistic intentions remembers me 1984, not the tv ad, but the Macintosh itself.
 
The joke is YOU, kid...

These are the same people who complain about the App store being filled with junk but Apple decides to control what gets in and they still complain. What a joke.

The AppStore IS filled with JUNK. You fail to see the irony in your defense of Apple's foolishness.

The restrictions have done NOTHING to improve the quality and selection of apps...even tho, when warned that what is happening now WOULD by those who know better, the apologist drank the kool-aid and ignored the fact that "illegitimate" apps would be able to offer far more integration, stability and functionality than the Dog and Pony ones.

There is a *very specific technical reason* that unfortunately, to protect Apple's ass,I had to sign an NDA to find out, why jB apps don't crash as much as legit ones do and have far more functionality and tighter hardware integration.

That reason would make you sad, if you were allowed to know it, and likely disgusted and angry. Sorry. I can't tell you. As an Apple customer, you have a right to know.

If you look at the actual output, the AppStore is full of safe "me-too!" apps precisely because of an, as the kids like to say, "EPIC FAIL" of the system.

These are the facts..as far as I can disclose them, of how the development process works:

1. You have an idea.
2. You pay Apple to have access to the full toolset to develop your idea.
3. You pay R&D to develop your idea.
4. Post development, you submit your non-malicious product for sale.

At this point, assuming you haven't developed the most basic of apps, you've spent thousands of dollars to do this.

Now, in a normal dev environment, you generally set up shop and sell the thing.

Of course, there are different models, usually a change in the above 4 steps, or a step 1a. You "pitch" your idea to the licensor for initial feedback/greenlighting.

This ONE CHANGE to the process would prevent a LOT of the ill will floating about.

Many "AAA" long-time Mac dev outfits that many of you know, love and have purchased from will NOT touch the iPhone with a 10ft pole...further increasing the level of "n00b" apps you are seeing.

They aren't doing this, because the current business model is quite insane when you look at 'the numbers'...and all of the fanboi cheering in the world backing up Apple on this won't change that.

I for one look forward to WWDC next year; it will be an...interesting...environment from what I've heard around the campfire if some policies don't change.

BELIEVE ME...there are devs out there waiting to write the kinds of innovative apps we all know the iPhone *should* be able to deliver...and will be happy to bring them to you once they are allowed to by the agreements and the business model.

All blame for the failings of the AppStore belong in Apple's lap; they deserve every bit of backlash they receive. It is the price to be paid for the path they've chosen and the sooner they, and their small but vocal segment of cheerleader customers come to terms with this, the faster the platform will grow to its greatest potential.

I mean, iPhone Apps are written in a variant of Cocoa...but most of the best Cocoa coders outside of Apple with the most experience want nothing to to with the platform...if they have to spend their own money on such risky business.

Hence the proliferation of 1. Games from Names (they have an 'in') and 2. Simple, low risk apps that don't really exploit the platform or are a clone or "different take" on apps already there.

Contrast this with the Android platform. Those apps are written in the Java language and use common, well understood things like XML.

Do we really think Apple is in a position *at this time* to make it...less attractive than moreso to develop for their platform?
 
Sounds like someone doesn't even know whats going on. Come back when developers stop making big applications due to apples ridiculous app approval system.
Why haven't they, I see more apps being added daily and Apple's app store seems to dwarfs everyone else's out there. Look how many downloads users downloaded, they sure seem to be doing something right, which is why developers will keep on flocking to it.
 
Well this podcaster app is useless to me and I wouldn't use it, just like some of those calculator apps are useless to you. It is up to Apple to decide what gets in their store, sure some people will complain that their app got rejected by evil Apple and have some symphatizers but the world is not fair.

Adjei, I suspect you are simply a troll, because you fail to acknowledge the basic issue that people are having. Read this carefully:

Most people don't care if Apple restricts an app for any reason. Apple should just publish what those reasons are, so you don't waste people's time.

arn
 
Well, the main topic of extending the NDA to the rejection letters seems pretty straight forward to me. I believe it has been stated that the NDA already covered that, but now they are making a point to emphasize that.

I would agree that the language is vague and certainly Apple needs to address the rejection issues sooner than later. However, developers need to clearly read what they are agreeing to, and like most people, just look for the "Accept" button without really taking a good look.

I'm not defending Apple because they do need clarify things and remove the ambiguity in getting an app approved and provide some consistent practices. They would be wise to look at the bigger picture. If someone develops a mail application, what's the problem? If the app does nothing malicious and provides functionality that users want, it really is a win for Apple. No one is paying for Apple Mail on the iPhone. Why not get more revenue from 3rd party sales?? That's what seems unclear to me in their decision making process. If they were selling Apple Mail, then that would be direct competition, but they arent.

In conclusion, developers need to pursue the avenues for getting this solved and remember you catch more Bees with honey and not vinegar. (or is it flies? and crap? you know what I mean)
 
Folks, this is only for the ability to sell it on their store. Apple doesn't block distribution of your program on your own.

Do you think that a retailer should be forced to sell just anyone's merchandise. I'm thinking back to Walmart refusing to sell RU486 in their pharmacies.

Apple, like Walmart, should post it's App Store policies more clearly. Or provide some process to pre-approve concepts.
Something like this would work, well said. Instead we have people comparing Apple to Nazis because of this, unbelievable.
 
Cool .... Apple is selling MacBooks with 10.4 Tiger again???? .... Yeah. I thought so!
3000 Apps .... Of whom 30 I actually want/find usefull. That's a quota to be proud of. Way you go AppStore!
OtoH Podcaster would be an app I could really use. I listen to lots of podcasts. Most of them are update daily. I find it very anoying that I can only update the episodes through iTunes.
So because you find the majority of the Apps useless, it means that there aren't others out there who find some use for them. :rolleyes:
 
Screw Apple. They should be getting bad press about their monopolistic policies preventing creativity and competition.
 
I completely agree with you about the Nazi comment, but I'm a bit confused by your Vista comments. Firstly, you can still buy XP on a number of machines (mainly the new breed of "Small, Cheap Computers"), but you try and buy a new Mac with Tiger on it...

Just from the angle that apparently most people prefer XP to Vista, and MS apparently decided to stop giving people the choice of XP or Vista, because no one would choose Vista.

I haven't heard the same complaints about Leopard vs. Tiger. I was glad to get Leopard, and don't want to have Tiger anymore. Apple generally makes improvements in their software over time, not like MS.

Cheers.
 
The AppStore IS filled with JUNK. You fail to see the irony in your defense of Apple's foolishness.

The restrictions have done NOTHING to improve the quality and selection of apps...even tho, when warned that what is happening now WOULD by those who know better, the apologist drank the kool-aid and ignored the fact that "illegitimate" apps would be able to offer far more integration, stability and functionality than the Dog and Pony ones.

There is a *very specific technical reason* that unfortunately, to protect Apple's ass,I had to sign an NDA to find out, why jB apps don't crash as much as legit ones do and have far more functionality and tighter hardware integration.
[snip]
Do we really think Apple is in a position *at this time* to make it...less attractive than moreso to develop for their platform?

QFT - this is probably the best post in the entire thread.
As an aside, we did some basic research among our customer base (who are almost exclusively blue chip companies) as to what sort of apps they would find most useful on the iPhone platform. We came away with half a dozen or so really positive ideas and then found out we couldn't actually develop any of them due to restrictions either in the SDK or the license agreements.
 
Hmm, as a potential developer, I am a touch annoyed by this. As many people have mentioned, there's no way to know if your hard work is going to be rejected or not. What if I do create an app that's non-offensive, useful and took me countless hours/days/weeks to develop. THEN I find out my app was rejected? This seems very counterintuitive.

Since Apple like patents so much, why can't we have a similar system? Submit your idea, how it will work and how you would implement it's functions. You should then get the green light to develop this app and only should be rejected due to run time issues such as crashing, interfering with the OS, etc. The app should then be retooled and resubmitted.

Apple wins, the developer wins and eventually the consumer wins.
 
Slightly wrong on number 2:
2. You pay Apple to have access to the full toolset to develop your idea.
3. You pay R&D to develop your idea.
4. Post development, you submit your non-malicious product for sale.
SDK and tools are free to use. You pay a big whopping $99 to be approved to distribute in the store. Not to take away from your point, but I don't want to discourage future app devs here ;-)
 
The AppStore IS filled with JUNK. You fail to see the irony in your defense of Apple's foolishness.

The restrictions have done NOTHING to improve the quality and selection of apps...even tho, when warned that what is happening now WOULD by those who know better, the apologist drank the kool-aid and ignored the fact that "illegitimate" apps would be able to offer far more integration, stability and functionality than the Dog and Pony ones.

There is a *very specific technical reason* that unfortunately, to protect Apple's ass,I had to sign an NDA to find out, why jB apps don't crash as much as legit ones do and have far more functionality and tighter hardware integration.

That reason would make you sad, if you were allowed to know it, and likely disgusted and angry. Sorry. I can't tell you. As an Apple customer, you have a right to know.

If you look at the actual output, the AppStore is full of safe "me-too!" apps precisely because of an, as the kids like to say, "EPIC FAIL" of the system.

These are the facts..as far as I can disclose them, of how the development process works:

1. You have an idea.
2. You pay Apple to have access to the full toolset to develop your idea.
3. You pay R&D to develop your idea.
4. Post development, you submit your non-malicious product for sale.

At this point, assuming you haven't developed the most basic of apps, you've spent thousands of dollars to do this.

Now, in a normal dev environment, you generally set up shop and sell the thing.

Of course, there are different models, usually a change in the above 4 steps, or a step 1a. You "pitch" your idea to the licensor for initial feedback/greenlighting.

This ONE CHANGE to the process would prevent a LOT of the ill will floating about.

Many "AAA" long-time Mac dev outfits that many of you know, love and have purchased from will NOT touch the iPhone with a 10ft pole...further increasing the level of "n00b" apps you are seeing.

They aren't doing this, because the current business model is quite insane when you look at 'the numbers'...and all of the fanboi cheering in the world backing up Apple on this won't change that.

I for one look forward to WWDC next year; it will be an...interesting...environment from what I've heard around the campfire if some policies don't change.

BELIEVE ME...there are devs out there waiting to write the kinds of innovative apps we all know the iPhone *should* be able to deliver...and will be happy to bring them to you once they are allowed to by the agreements and the business model.

All blame for the failings of the AppStore belong in Apple's lap; they deserve every bit of backlash they receive. It is the price to be paid for the path they've chosen and the sooner they, and their small but vocal segment of cheerleader customers come to terms with this, the faster the platform will grow to its greatest potential.

I mean, iPhone Apps are written in a variant of Cocoa...but most of the best Cocoa coders outside of Apple with the most experience want nothing to to with the platform...if they have to spend their own money on such risky business.

Hence the proliferation of 1. Games from Names (they have an 'in') and 2. Simple, low risk apps that don't really exploit the platform or are a clone or "different take" on apps already there.

Contrast this with the Android platform. Those apps are written in the Java language and use common, well understood things like XML.

Do we really think Apple is in a position *at this time* to make it...less attractive than moreso to develop for their platform?
Who are you to decide which apps are useless, last time I checked what's someone's garbage may be someone's treasure. If the App store was such a failure like you're suggesting why is the number of apps growing, why did Apple annouce 100 million downloads in 2 months, why did a small developer just make 250 000.
 
Who are you to decide which apps are useless, last time I checked what's someone's garbage may be someone's treasure. If the App store was such a failure like you're suggesting why is the number of apps growing, why did Apple annouce 100 million downloads in 2 months, why did a small developer just make 250 000.

Turning that around, who are Apple to make that decision either...
 
Slightly wrong on number 2:

SDK and tools are free to use. You pay a big whopping $99 to be approved to distribute in the store. Not to take away from your point, but I don't want to discourage future app devs here ;-)

To be 100% pedantic, I believe you pay that price (varies according to which programme you go for) if you want to put the app on an iPhone. So even if you only want to develop an app for personal use and never go near the iTunes store, you still have to pay.
 
When the Apple started getting rotten

Gosh...

I am shocked. I don't want to employ any outlandish metaphors or comparisons, but this is really poor. I have defended Apple's locked-in model to many in just the past week by saying that it promotes user ease-of-use. But this seems a move too far. I will not be throwing away my Apple hardware, but will seriously be considering my continued use of this company's products. I suggest that you email apple and register your complaint if you have an issue with this, as I have done. Restricting a competive marketplace is a fairly monopolistic thing to do and stifling the freedom to discuss the inability to sell products sounds very unAmerican. I'll be waiting for an appropriate humble response from Apple.
 
Turning that around, who are Apple to make that decision either...
It's their product, they developed it, put money into it and are deciding who they let into "their" store. There are countless other phones with other apps that these developers can develop if they don't agree with Apple. Android just came out and from what I hear they have no restrictions, should be a developers dream.
 
There are two simple arguments here:

1. Apple is being EVIL
2. Developers are being WHINY

Neither of these cut to the core:

Apple is being STUPID

Regardless of whether Apple is allowed to reject any apps it damn well pleases, or whether developers have the right to bitch and moan about their app being rejected, the net result is that developers are now unsure as to what the rules are for making a profit with their application.

Until Apple fixes this, they're going to lose developers by the week - who's going to take the risk of developing an app over three months time only to find out *at the very end* that it gets rejected? Especially now that Apple's trying to take away even the Kremlinology option.

No, Apple's shooting itself in the foot here, and yes, they're perfectly within their rights to do that.

I like Apple though - I don't want to see them shoot themselves in the foot then loose the 100m to the guy on crutches.
 
Totally agree. Now Apple doesn't even want you talking about the fact you've been rejected from their store? That's pretty damn weak.
I disagree.

If you look back at the rejections we know about, each one of them was a PR disaster, and with the exception of the fart app, each one of them was rejected for valid reasons that could be found right in the agreement. You can argue that Apple has a serious problem with communication (I think they do), but having disgruntled wing-nuts shouting bad things about them when they are supposed to be under NDA is hardly something that should be tolerated.

Every instance of a rejection that comes to mind right now also involved some blog posting that kind of wildly spun the rejection as something close to pure evil. Then later, when we find out the facts, it's pretty easy to see why they were rejected. Meanwhile, Apple gets bad PR for days.

Apple is being smart to remind these folks that bad-mouthing the hand that (could be) feeding them is neither smart nor good manners. there are other places to go if you don't like developing for iPhone.
 
Thanks Phil...

QFT - this is probably the best post in the entire thread.
As an aside, we did some basic research among our customer base (who are almost exclusively blue chip companies) as to what sort of apps they would find most useful on the iPhone platform. We came away with half a dozen or so really positive ideas and then found out we couldn't actually develop any of them due to restrictions either in the SDK or the license agreements.

...this is the difference between people that *know* what they are talking about and what is going on...and what they THINK they know.

Your case above has been repeated more often that I think many here can, or are willing to believe.

Idea pitches are out there. It is always a little sad when someone comes up with a "FANTASTIC!" idea for the platform that they just CAN'T BELIEVE someone hasn't done yet.

I usually have to tell these companies, in the nicest way possible, that it isn't because we are idiots or lack imagination, that you don't see Clever App X with Obvious Feature Y...it is simply that no one is allowed to develop such an app.

After convincing them that no, I really DO understand what you are saying...it is just that such an app *cannot be developed for the platform*...and no, I can't tell you *specifically* why or what part of the license your idea violates.

People just don't seem to understand what we are really dealing with here, unfortunately, Phil. What is worse, many do not seem to *want* to understand, because they cannot see that Apple is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT COMPANY in a B2B relationship than in their much touted C2B role.

I've been dealing with it for years *shrug*
 
Shame on Apple.

Once a company I highly respected, now my respect for that company is getting lower, and lower.
 
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