Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Your lack of knowledge on this subject is readily apparent. The fact that Ericsson has 35,000 patents has nothing to do with the case. I'm also not sure you know what constitutes a patent troll. Having a lot of patents isn't a qualifier.;) Hard to characterize a $33 Billion company with over 100K employess as a patent troll.:rolleyes:

And not taking into account that it has been in the field since 1876.

I don't know who is right, but nor Ericsson nor Apple are patent trolls
 
Your lack of knowledge on this subject is readily apparent. The fact that Ericsson has 35,000 patents has nothing to do with the case. I'm also not sure you know what constitutes a patent troll. Having a lot of patents isn't a qualifier.;) Hard to characterize a $33 Billion company with over 100K employess as a patent troll.:rolleyes:

Apple is being sued for 41 patents. They previously paid the licensing fee so they acknowledge the patents are valid. They apparently don't want to pay anymore. They most likely will. The only question is how much.

You harping about Ericsson's patent portfolio is only a smokescreen that avoids the subject of the 41 specific patents in the lawsuit. Ericsson could have a million patents and 999,959 of them would be irrelevant to the topic.

Still, its kinda weird that these patents are not licensed by Qualcom. Why not?

I think this is mostly a negotiation play for both company. I don't see Apple really be forced to not sell its devices in the US. Samsung never got to that point even after several rulings. Congress/president would rather change the current system than let this happen anyway.

Yes, this is not exactly like the Smartflash thing. These are sort of valid patents. They are licensed way above what I think they should be valued. Apple probably knows something about how much they are licensed to others. But, going to Texas for it proves the courts there are distinctly favorable to patent suits (some people were arguing that his wasn't the case). If the filers and defenders know its the case (and articles online say just that); it is the case :).
 
that actually seems reasonable to me in that case.

Ericsson licenced patented technology to Apple so Apple agreed to it in the past
Negotiations broke down over continued licencing
Licence expired
Apple continued to used the tech without permission
Ericsson offered to have a third party determine a fair compensation
It seems clear from what little we know Ericsson wanted a higher rate per device on an existing FRAND contract, not merely a renewal of the rate on a larger number of units.

As most people know technology declared FRAND has to have the consent of the owner to enter that status, at which time all users license the tech at a fixed rate, widening license fees vastly. This tech critical to 2G, 3G, 4G wireless has entered that status with Ericcson's consent and agreement.

We also do not know if a second pool of FRAND tech has been added since the original contract.

Rocketman
 
Last edited:
Your lack of knowledge on this subject is readily apparent. The fact that Ericsson has 35,000 patents has nothing to do with the case. I'm also not sure you know what constitutes a patent troll. Having a lot of patents isn't a qualifier.;) Hard to characterize a $33 Billion company with over 100K employess as a patent troll.:rolleyes:

Apple is being sued for 41 patents. They previously paid the licensing fee so they acknowledge the patents are valid. They apparently don't want to pay anymore. They most likely will. The only question is how much.

You harping about Ericsson's patent portfolio is only a smokescreen that avoids the subject of the 41 specific patents in the lawsuit. Ericsson could have a million patents and 999,959 of them would be irrelevant to the topic.

Sorry I am not a patent attorney and my knowledge on the subject isn't to your liking.

I am merely asking the question about the patent system in general. In my mind patents should be something pretty revolutionary and ground breaking. But it seems that sometimes major corporations make and buy as many patents as they can almost as a hedge.

Ericsson clearly isn't the big name in cell phone manufacture any more, but they still get to claim that if a competitor builds a cell phone they need to get paid a fee.

At this point our cell network is like running water, electricity, broadband, gas, it's a utility. It doesn't seem right that anyone that makes a phone has to pay Ericsson a fee. And it seems Apple is of the same opinion at this point. We'll have to see how this case plays out.
 
And it seems Apple is of the same opinion at this point.

No, Apple doesn't have this opinion.

And I'm still trying to grasp what has to do Ericsson not being a major phone manufacturer with this particular case.

Do you really have read the article and what the case is about?
 
Apple is getting very good at battling in court, they thrive on both the headlines and any other attention they get. With a great legal team and money to burn, nothing is going to get in their way.

So Apple is allowed to steal tech and clog up the courts with appeal after appeal for something they did use without permission. Pay up Apple
 
Last edited:
This one seems simple. Either Apple feels they don't owe these royalties or they don't agree with the royalty numbers.

Obviously, Apple is going to protect it's cash and Ericsson will want the most they can get from Apple's pile of cash.

No evil here... just two companies trying to come to consensus. In some ways it's silly this sort of thing even makes the news radar screen.

BTW... i HATE patent trolls. Scum of the earth - but this isn't the case here.
 
So Apple is allowed to steal tech and clog up the courts with appeal after appeal for something they did use without permission. Pay up Apple

They probably see it as the cost of doing business. Do you know how much money Walmart pays out in litigation every year? According to Forbes, even ten years ago, they faced 5,000 lawsuits a year. I suspect that number is even higher now.

Any time you're a big fish, people are going to come after you for money. Even if Apple acted to the highest ethical standards in every single situation, they will still have to deal with suits.
 
They probably see it as the cost of doing business. Do you know how much money Walmart pays out in litigation every year? According to Forbes, even ten years ago, they faced 5,000 lawsuits a year. I suspect that number is even higher now.

Any time you're a big fish, people are going to come after you for money. Even if Apple acted to the highest ethical standards in every single situation, they will still have to deal with suits.

I agree with the "big fish" comment but Apple is always suing someone for infringing on their patents. The system works both ways,Apple is going to pay for this incident. They should too. Apple doesn't act to the highest ethical standards as do very very few corporations. Its about the $$$$. This incident is going to cost them.

I agree the other suit filed against them is garbage. That is patent trolling. This is NOT.
 
Still, its kinda weird that these patents are not licensed by Qualcom. Why not?

I think this is mostly a negotiation play for both company. I don't see Apple really be forced to not sell its devices in the US. Samsung never got to that point even after several rulings. Congress/president would rather change the current system than let this happen anyway.

Yes, this is not exactly like the Smartflash thing. These are sort of valid patents. They are licensed way above what I think they should be valued. Apple probably knows something about how much they are licensed to others. But, going to Texas for it proves the courts there are distinctly favorable to patent suits (some people were arguing that his wasn't the case). If the filers and defenders know its the case (and articles online say just that); it is the case :).

Why aren't they licensed through Qualcomm, who knows. Going down that road makes the issue no more clear than it already is.

Bolded from your quote: What does that mean? --> Sort of valid. Is there a question of validity surrounding these patents? This case is about how much the patents will eventually cost Apple. Also, I never saw any information regarding how much Apple paid for licensing the patents so how can it be said they are licensed above value? You can't use the $250-750 million as an estimate of (a) the previous agreement or (b) the request in the failed negotiations. That's an "ask for high amount, settle for less" litigation figure.

East Texas courts are a travesty of justice, legal strategy, proverbial stick to the carrot of negotiations, and until something changes, a permanent part of patent cases. Unfortunate as it may be.
 
Yet another sad case of Patent Trolls looking for Apple's money in Tyler, Texas. (I live in Dallas, it's nothing against Tyler. It's just the ambulance-chaser/troll mentality that kills me.)

Did you make the same accusation when Apple was suing Samsung because the SHAPE of their phone was similar to iPhone?

Didn't think so.
 
Sorry I am not a patent attorney and my knowledge on the subject isn't to your liking.

I am merely asking the question about the patent system in general. In my mind patents should be something pretty revolutionary and ground breaking. But it seems that sometimes major corporations make and buy as many patents as they can almost as a hedge.

Ericsson clearly isn't the big name in cell phone manufacture any more, but they still get to claim that if a competitor builds a cell phone they need to get paid a fee.

At this point our cell network is like running water, electricity, broadband, gas, it's a utility. It doesn't seem right that anyone that makes a phone has to pay Ericsson a fee. And it seems Apple is of the same opinion at this point. We'll have to see how this case plays out.

No I should be the one apologizing. The crack about your knowledge was unwarranted. What I bolded from your quote: That's a separate argument altogether. Valid topic, but unrelated to the issue at hand. Using it to argue points about this subject is where you're getting pushback because it waylays the progression of discussion on the actual issue.

As for the case, I don't think Apple is arguing the validity of the patents. They are arguing how much they have to pay for them. Again, not the same. Since we don't know what Ericsson was asking for in the negotiations no one can say they were asking a fair price or gouging. That's what the court will have to decide.
 
This is all a guess, but I bet it went down something like this.

I'm sure Apple was willing to role over the old agreement and pay at the same rates as last year. Erickson was probably looking for a big rate increase. Apple's response was, why are you making me pay more than what you are charging HTC, Motorola, and LG for the same license. Erickson response was, Well the iPhone makes more profit than those other guys.

And finally I'm pretty sure that isn't the way the essential patents are supposed to be charged for.

Apple eventually pays Erickson. That is probably a given. But the question is how much.
 
This is all a guess, but I bet it went down something like this.

I'm sure Apple was willing to role over the old agreement and pay at the same rates as last year. Erickson was probably looking for a big rate increase. Apple's response was, why are you making me pay more than what you are charging HTC, Motorola, and LG for the same license. Erickson response was, Well the iPhone makes more profit than those other guys.

And finally I'm pretty sure that isn't the way the essential patents are supposed to be charged for.

Apple eventually pays Erickson. That is probably a given. But the question is how much.

Apart that it is just speculation, I will bet that Motorola or Samsung pay less than LG, Apple or LG just because they also own essential patents for telephony.

People confuses FRAND with all the actors paying the same, this is not true, no one pays the same, they pay a fair amount.

And, by the way, if what Ericsson say is true, why someone that thinks that the fees are not fair would refuse that a mediation court would set them?
 
Dude Seriously You Are Just Upset That It Is Your Favorite Company Getting Sued

They probably see it as the cost of doing business. Do you know how much money Walmart pays out in litigation every year? According to Forbes, even ten years ago, they faced 5,000 lawsuits a year. I suspect that number is even higher now.

Any time you're a big fish, people are going to come after you for money. Even if Apple acted to the highest ethical standards in every single situation, they will still have to deal with suits.

Were you this outraged when Apple tried to patent nearly the BASIC CONCEPT of a graphical-driven GUI and sued Microsoft? Or when they tried to pretty much patent THE BASIC CONCEPT of touch-screen driven mobile devices and sued Samsung? (It wasn't about Samsung's making devices that looked "too much" like an iPhone, because Apple continued the suit long after Samsung switched from iPhone copycats to phablets. Their goal was to use either lawsuits - or "licensing agreements" or "design changes" under the threat of lawsuits - to make it impossible for Android manufacturers to turn a profit. That was why they only sued Samsung and forced HTC into a licensing agreement instead of going after Google and Android itself.)

For goodness sakes, man, even this article on a pro-Apple site admits:

A) Ericsson patented and owns the technology in question and that the patents have value
B) Apple agreed to pay the patents in the past based on A)
C) Apple never contested A) but merely wanted to reduce the amount that they had to pay under the licensing terms. (The conjecture that Ericsson wanted to increase them is false. Ericsson would have been fine with Apple paying the same. Apple wanted to pay LESS.)
D) Ericsson offered arbitration. Apple refused. The licensing agreement expired. Apple refused to enter into a new one.
E) Ericsson sues Apple to force them into a new agreement.

Of course, Ericsson does not want to stop Apple from selling phones. Why? Because Apple's selling phones is the way that Ericsson makes money off Apple. But Ericsson will gain an injunction if Apple continues to infringe without paying. Now this is the difference between Apple and Samsung: Samsung claimed that they did not infringe at all (initially). They never had a licensing agreement with Apple. As Apple entered into a licensing agreement with Ericsson, they can't go that route, even as a delaying tactic. They admit to using Ericsson's technology but simply do not want to pay as much for it as they once did.

But it would be interesting to see their justification for their position. Why would the patent be worth less today than it was yesterday? Your argument: "cell phones are common and a part of life now like running water, electricity, broadband, gas" is backwards. The fact that cell phones are so vital to our daily lives - vital to the economy! - is precisely what makes the patents more valuable.

1. Modern society can't live without its cell phones

+

2. Cell phones can't exist without Ericsson's technology

=

Modern society can't live without Ericsson's technology!

And here is the deal. You think "cell phone" and immediately associate it with "iPhone" because Apple is currently the leading smartphone brand. So you are thinking that it is Apple's technology and design that gives Ericsson's patent its value in the first place. First off, even if that were true, that wasn't the position that Apple itself took when they sued Microsoft, as it was Microsoft who actually put Apple's UI design into the hands of more than like 5% to 10% of America's population. Second, it isn't true in the first place. Feature phones and even "dumb" cell phones were using Ericsson's technology long before the iPhone. And so were Blackberry, Symbian, Java Mobile, Windows CE, Palm etc. smartphones long before Apple entered the market. And Google's original prototype Android phone (based on the Blackberry) used it also. While obviously none of those companies were the 900 pound gorillas that Apple is now, they were making TONS of money back then so obviously the patents had value then.

And another angle: what was Apple before the iPhone? Didn't consider that did you? Without the mobile market that would not have existed without Ericsson's technology, Apple would still be puttering around with the iPod and not much else. No iPhone, no iPad. No smart devices cannibalizing the sales of Windows PCs and laptops and driving higher income people to abandon Windows altogether for Macs.

But Apple's claim that Ericsson's patent is somehow worth less today than it was yesterday is bizarre. Some - including Samsung - have claimed that patent values were worth more than their market value and either sued to break their patent agreements or were taken to court, but:

A) such patents weren't a major part of the product to begin with i.e. remove them from the product and it would still work and/or it could easily be replaced by a non-infringing component

B) something happened in the marketplace to reduce the value of the patent, i.e. the creation of a new, better technology

C) the company claims that the value of the patent was originally overstated

Apple isn't claiming any of this. They just decided that they were going to start paying less for something that they were paying yesterday.

Maybe it will work. Who knows. Maybe knocking Ericsson down a peg is some attempt to devalue the organization so they can acquire them (and lock the box on their patents, dealing a devastating blow to Samsung and other competitors in the process, similar to what Apple did when they bought the only company capable of making quality touch id hardware, forcing Samsung to be embarrassed for 2 years with their own clunky solution and keeping it from being in the Nexus 6 and therefore fully integrated into Google Wallet). Maybe Apple simply has money to burn and this is their way of spending it.

But honestly, if you are going to claim that Ericsson's actual hardware designs should not have patentable value, then I would REALLY like to know what you think of Apple suing Microsoft and Samsung over mere "look and feel" and/or "conceptual" matters that Microsoft and Samsung used their own technology (or code) to implement, and in many instances were rather different - and in some cases quite different - from the Apple IP that they were originally copying to begin with. Again, Ericsson's patents deal with actual hardware here. When Apple went after Samsung (as a proxy for Android) and Microsoft, they were trying to patent a particular method of computing or way that a device could be used. Granted, GUI based computing and touchscreen-based phones were probably more revolutionary - and more important in many ways - than Ericsson's hardware designs, but the latter is a lot easier to patent.
 
This is obviously Apples idea of pricing negotiation, because no doubt every other handset manufacturer pays Ericsson's fees. Yet Apple with one of the highest mark ups refuses..

Apple will have to somehow claim it's unfair to pay license fees to use technology they in no way what so ever invented and they use in all their mobile phones, the same as everyone else.

Good luck Apple. I have a feeling an agreement will be met outside of court, before Apple loses a massive case and it will lose. It has no legs to stand on at all in this matter.

And I also guess people posting on here are in their twenty's or younger? Judging by the comments.
 
This is all a guess, but I bet it went down something like this.

I'm sure Apple was willing to role over the old agreement and pay at the same rates as last year. Erickson was probably looking for a big rate increase. Apple's response was, why are you making me pay more than what you are charging HTC, Motorola, and LG for the same license. Erickson response was, Well the iPhone makes more profit than those other guys.

And finally I'm pretty sure that isn't the way the essential patents are supposed to be charged for.

Apple eventually pays Erickson. That is probably a given. But the question is how much.

Why would you assume Ericksson was asking for an increase? Could it have gone something like this?

Ericksson produced a pro forma contract with the same terms as the expiring agreement. Apple, with a reputation for squeezing vendors for margin, said we want to pay X% less on this contract. Ericksson's response was we charge you, HTC, Motorola, and LG the exact same price for the same license. Apple's response was we sell more phones that those guys so you can make it up on volume.

Here's where we converge: Apple eventually pays Erickson. That is probably a given. But the question is how much.

I have no skin in the game but both of those scenarios are equally probable and improbable at the same time. Schrodinger's cat and all.:)
 
Last edited:
Wow.

Apple can truly do wrong in a lot of people's eyes here, even when they're wrong.

And people calling Ericsson a patent troll and referring to this as a kangaroo court case? That's just a new low for the forums, no matter how you look at it.
 
Last edited:
Apple eventually pays Erickson. That is probably a given. But the question is how much.


Agreed! All a business tactic (Ericsson) to force the other side (Apple) to agree to higher prices.

They will get paid, just not the amount they want.

Doesn't make them bad guys.
 
And also chose to make it a standard, which means that it is forced on everybody and then they should only be compensated slightly above cost of developing that tech.

The INDUSTRY chose the technology as the standard. There tech was what worked best for the price, so everyone hopped on board. Why should they be compensated slightly more than cost of development? Does Apple charge slightly more for an iPhone than what for them to build? 93% of the profit on 19% of the sales of smartphones indicates otherwise.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.