Apple Facing Imminent U.S. Antitrust Lawsuit

[transpo1]

Apple. I want to use Signal as my only messenger but I can't because Apple won't allow me to send (or receive) SMS messages from it. On Android you can set the default SMS app in Settings > Apps > Default apps > SMS app

So you’re preventing you from u

If the Apple watch works better with iPhone because it is a better product, then it is fine. However, if the AW works better with iPhone because Apple allows AW access to some APIs that it denies Pebble watch access to, then it is a problem. They will have to provide the same access to Pebble as they are providing to AW. Otherwise, they are being anti-competitive.

No, they don’t. You can always choose Android which presumably does not do that. No one is forcing you to choose an iPhone. This is not a monopoly, this is your choice. It’s called capitalism. Your argument is the same as saying I have to give someone else’s products the same placement in my brick and mortar store as I give my own. No, I really don’t. They can choose not to sell their products at my store but that’s the only recourse they have.

 

[Beautyspin]

So companies aren't allowed to make their product offerings more competitive? Complaining about limiting ad tracking makes them lose all credibility. That was a great thing.

Apple Is Tracking You Even When Its Own Privacy Settings Say It’s Not, New Research Says

An independent test suggests Apple collects data about you and your phone when its own settings promise to “disable the sharing of Device Analytics altogether.”

gizmodo.com

Did Apple’s privacy feature help to drive its own ad business?

Apple is the one tech giant that has never been associated with ads, proudly declaring its customer a jewel it will never sell to advertisers. But it seems that Apple is now immersing itself deep into the ad business. Will its promises be kept?

adguard.com

"
According to MacRumours, Apple has recently told advertisers that conversion rate for iOS 15 users with and without Personalized Ads enabled is about the same.

While Apple effectively tracks users on its own platform, the pre-installed apps are exempted from displaying a message asking permission to track users."

 

[rjp1]

Good. I hope Apple leaves the USA

Their heart is already in China 😂🤣

 

[rjp1]

Do you have an Apple Watch? Have you had a competing watch? Genuine questions because I honestly do not see how Apple Watch could work on Android. They can't even make their own watches work well. It's not worth trying to square that peg.

I don't think this is about Apple Watch on Android, but rather other watches on iOS. I have to completely agree here. They should open up APIs for the watches so other watches could compete directly with the Apple Watch. I'm a runner and I hate how bad the GPS on the Apple Watch is at tracking runs (among other things). I would LOVE to switch to a Garmin or something else. I only stick with Apple Watch, because of the tighter integration with iOS.

 

[MacGekko]

It’s all lies really. The U.S. government is after one thing they don’t have access to: All your data on your iPhone. Everything else is a smokescreen. 🤬

Just your opinion, as all theories go, conspiratorial or otherwise, I welcome evidence of this behind the scenes conspiracy by the U.S. government.

 

[Beautyspin]

EXACTLY how I feel. I feel that Apple is a garbage company with terrible business practices. But they make some good products. It is THEIR right to operate however they please. If all of this stuff was such a big deal to the REAL judge -- the consumer -- they'd have switched to Android already. But they haven't. Why? Because the market wants iPhones. Clearly. The market is the judge, NOT tyrannical governments.

So, it should not matter if they become less anti-competitive. People will still vote with their wallets and embrace Apple.

 

[MacGekko]

Man….as a kid 25 years ago if you told me Apple would be one of the biggest companies on the planet that changed/created entire industries and being sued by the US government I would’ve spit my pop-rocks out !

What? Did you miss the "Microsoft being sued by the US" headlines in the late 90's? It is the natural life cycle of a huge business, they become too big and sometimes monopolistic, none of this is shocking.

 

[vipergts2207]

You assumed I was against anti-trust and you failed miserably. I addition, I am not and never will be your guy.

Additionally, resources are consumed. A radio frequency waveform is never consumed nor destroyed. The federal government is simply ENFORCING the same anti-trust behavior they're supposedly fighting while profiting from it. The "big three" are the only ones able to afford the prices the FCC sets. Thus, you direct the breakup of these companies as the solution to the problem when they are not the creator of the anti-trust situation in the first place.

Of course the electromagnetic waves aren’t consumed. That’s not how electromagnetic radiation works, nor did my post imply that. The big three couldn’t afford all of the spectrum if they were broke up into smaller companies. Also your claim that they aren’t the creator of the anti-trust situation in the first place is very much untrue considering that Verizon and AT&T are composed of six of the seven baby bells that were created by the Bell system’s breakup. But whatever you say, my guy.

 

[MacGekko]

EXACTLY how I feel. I feel that Apple is a garbage company with terrible business practices. But they make some good products. It is THEIR right to operate however they please. If all of this stuff was such a big deal to the REAL judge -- the consumer -- they'd have switched to Android already. But they haven't. Why? Because the market wants iPhones. Clearly. The market is the judge, NOT tyrannical governments.

I'm not certain they have a right to operate however they please, what if for example, they discriminated against a certain race or religion in their hiriing practices, that aside it seems like you have a complete free market attitude, I would vote for that experiment if you took every subsidy and tax break and lobbying ability from Apple and every other corporation.

Your assumption that the consumer is always right is faulty, do you not think the millions if not billions of dollars Apple has in marketing does not influence the consumer, or the ability to buy companies that are rising up with products or patents that threaten Apple's products.

Look, I see nothing wrong with Apple being only concerned about Apple, and fighting to the death to make money for their shareholders, but if the US government wants to push back on some things, well, that is what the US courts are for, Apple's high wattage attorneys are ready to fight like Gordon Gekko to destroy the government's case.

 

[transpo1]

Because Apple keeps some APIs for themselves and won’t let other apps use them. I.E., they purposefully limit what the competition can do.

That’s how it’s Apple’s fault.

You forgot to add, "they purposefully limit what the competition can do..." in their store. It’s their platform. It’s their right. You just don’t like the principle of ownership. Toyota doesn't have to let Ford parts in their store at all, never mind give them access to Toyota's technology to make them work just as well on Toyota's cars.

Its not flawed. its very accurate.

Okay, haha. If you don't address any of my points, I can't take you seriously. Saying "I'm right" over and over again is not a debate; it's a tantrum.

Apple. I want to use Signal as my only messenger but I can't because Apple won't allow me to send (or receive) SMS messages from it. On Android you can set the default SMS app in Settings > Apps > Default apps > SMS app

Nope, wrong. You are. By choosing Apple, you are preventing yourself from using SMS on Signal. You don't have the right to use SMS on Signal on iPhone.

Fully agree. 👍🏻

And since Apple has been acting like the (quasi) government to its own iOS fiefdom, making and enforcing its own laws, regulating what is legal or morally acceptable and what’s not, enacting security and policing rules that claim to protect its citizens from harm, as well as taxing businesses (with rates that aren’t determined competitively)… we should be just as skeptical about Apple.

What a government is and acts to its territory, Apple is and does to iOS.

Except Apple is a corporation. I'm always skeptical of corporations, too. But what's funny is you just described the EU extremely accurately. Should we then sue the EU to force them to change their anti-competitive and immoral taxing of businesses (with rates that aren't determined competitively) and break up their "business model?" It really hampers competition between those European states. ;-)

Freedom of the market of those who want to use another sms app

It's already a free market -- you're free to choose Android any day of the week. I think some people have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a free market actually works.

They do not have to share the tech. They just have to make it interoperable, which means they have to create APIs that other messaging services can use for making their messaging platforms interoperate with iMessage.

Since when do companies have to make something interoperable? Again, there is a fundamental misunderstanding here of free market capitalism (not talking completely unregulated, but somewhat regulated, which is the system we have). I'm under no obligation to let your products have the prime space in my store. None. You are free to choose another store (Android in this case) but my store has rights, too. Namely, to give my products the best placement.

Quite the contrary. Apple can and could protect “protect” their business. They overshot in doing so by resorting to behaviour that was found anticompetitive, illegal - and outlawed by new laws (DMA in Europe).

Toyota doesn’t form a duopoly with ford - and they aren’t serving as a platform for other businesses.

And most importantly:

👉🏻 when pizza delivery businesses buy and use small Toyota cars for their deliveries, does Toyota reserve the right to charge a commission on every pizza?

Are rabid Toyota fans clamouring on online forums how Toyota deserve their 30% revenue share of the pizza 🍕, because “they created and spent billions on creating the platform, hardware and its operating system used by pizzaiolos to deliver pizzas 🍕 in little cars 🚗 to consumers?

Nice pizza analogy, I'm getting a little hungry! But it doesn't quite work. A more accurate one is: Toyota builds a car with an infotainment system. They allow Apple CarPlay and Google Whatever access to their infotainment system. But they don't have to give Apple and Google the same level of access that the car's built-in apps have. And the government isn't forcing them to. Toyota is allowing those apps access, maybe charging them for access and that doesn't mean those companies have the right to access the rest of the car's techology. It's got nothing to do with pizza, actually. ;-)

 

[Beautyspin]

I honestly couldn’t believe my eyes when I read this. Unless I completely misunderstand, the Justice Department has this bass ackwards. We need to strictly and severely limit the amount of data that the advertising industry can gather. We need sweeping privacy legislation in the U.S. Instead, we have growing evidence that NO ONE is looking out for consumers in this area. Our cars, computers, ISPs, appliances are all spying on us and allowing our personal information to be sold to third parties. I subscribe to the Netflix ad-supported tier. This week, Netflix would no longer allow me to navigate to their home page - unless I provided them with my birth date and gender so that ads can be “customized” for me. It seems the notion of privacy is now a quaint notion from a long-gone sepia-colored past.

ATT limits the amount of data third parties can gather. However, it does not stop Apple from gathering the same data and using it for its Ad platform. That is why there was an increase in Apple's ad earnings once ATT was introduced. That is the whole reason Apple introduced ATT, not for your privacy.

Did Apple’s privacy feature help to drive its own ad business?

Apple is the one tech giant that has never been associated with ads, proudly declaring its customer a jewel it will never sell to advertisers. But it seems that Apple is now immersing itself deep into the ad business. Will its promises be kept?

adguard.com

That is why it is anticompetitive. Apple should not think that Governments cannot understand its intentions.

 

[transpo1]

Just your opinion, as all theories go, conspiratorial or otherwise, I welcome evidence of this behind the scenes conspiracy by the U.S. government.

Certain agencies of the U.S. government would love to have that data, but I believe the real reason the DOJ is after Apple is they hate success; and they want to control it. And eventually, if they abuse Apple enough, all the great things that make us love their ecosystem-- the ease of use, the hardware and software working seamlessly together-- will be destroyed.

 

[MacGekko]

So you’re preventing you from u

No, they don’t. You can always choose Android which presumably does not do that. No one is forcing you to choose an iPhone. This is not a monopoly, this is your choice. It’s called capitalism. Your argument is the same as saying I have to give someone else’s products the same placement in my brick and mortar store as I give my own. No, I really don’t. They can choose not to sell their products at my store but that’s the only recourse they have.

Yes, that is it. Never underestimate the government bureaucracy’s desire for power and control. They don’t like it when companies get too successful and they are greedy— like the EU, they want settlements, they want fines, and they want control.

And the market is already regulated— that’s why Apple needs FCC approval on every device it brings to market. This level of control has gone WAY beyond antitrust into government overreach.

Just because you are okay with gov’t over-regulation doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

Interesting arguments on both sides of this but I think some people are forgetting the role of the US government in fostering the very technologies that Apple and Big Tech have made billions on: https://hbr.org/2013/03/taxpayers-helped-apple-but-app

 

[MacGekko]

Yep, pretty sure Apple will be in Russia or China ten years from now. 🤪

Between being potentially thrown out of a Russian hotel window or pledging fealty to the Chinese Politburo, rumors are that Tim Cook is considering Saudi Arabia and a year long hotel house arrest as his preferred punishment for stepping out of line.

Many shortsighted people in this thread, governments are run by people, and people are needed to work for Apple and all of the Big Tech companies, look there is no doubt that Americans are way better off because of Apple/Microsoft/Google/Amazon, our GDP and stock market would probably be halved without them, but Apple needs talent, they need engineers, they need smart people to work for them, and our University system still attracts talent from all over the world.

 

[JordanCautious]

• How App Tracking Transparency impacted the collection of advertising data.

Now, I'm not saying Apple shouldn't be sued or anything but I find it funny how this was snuck into the list of potential complaints by the DOJ.

 

[007madmac]

That is just one aspect the DOJ investigated. We won't know for sure what is going on until the DoJ decides to bring suit against Apple under the Sherman and Clayton acts. At the end of the day, the government is legally allowed to intervene to insure a healthy market.

Just how many times has a gov't intervened, for the consumer, and screwed up a good product, making it worse? TOO OFTEN. They can't govern efficiently, so why should we think they can run a business.

 

[007madmac]

I absolutely hate how lazy Apple has been on improving iPhone’s hardware and iOS. But I’m too invested in other Apple products (which I love) to move to an android phone. It’s about time Apple enjoy less of an ecosystem advantage and for other companies to have a more level playing field.

Just how could they improve? Just what are you looking for? Is it something that is on another product? How do you know that they are not working, behind the scene, on this right now? Maybe the BIG improvement comes in smaller, increment, steps, allowing for adjustments along the way.

 

[MacGekko]

It’s because the “Divas” are lobbying Governments around the world.

That’s what they know how to do best, instead focusing on running their own businesses.

Just be sure to include all of Apple's lobbying efforts.

 

[MacGekko]

I wish the regulators would go after the real problems in the tech space - Meta and Alphabet

I wish they would force Apple to enable anyone to use an Apple Watch without any smartphone, joking of course, but how much longer does Tim Cook need to goose the sales further by tying the Apple Watch to the Iphone, free the Apple Watch.

 

[DeepWebinar]

you can always tell on these threads who is getting paid by apple and who is normal

 

[I7guy]

Did anyone mention how Apple should really pull out from the U.S. yet?

Buy the government is more like it.

 

[MacGekko]

Stunts like this are what cause company's like Apple to leave and go to other countries that are happy to have jobs for people just saying .

And where are you going to recruit for new top tech talent, there is a reason Silicon Valley exists, it might be losing to other American cities: https://www.wsj.com/tech/personal-tech/smaller-tech-hubs-rise-of-the-rest-6c2b142f

But for now, still America.

 

[MacBH928]

I am more surprised that the justice system can go for 5-7 years discussing the same case. Even the lawyers and judges probably forgot what was going on.

 

[DeepWebinar]

why should the government tell a company how to operate?

why does the government know better than the people purchasing the product(s)? if people don't like it, they can vote with their wallets.. as they do with LITERALLY every other company.

don't like something? don't buy it.

maybe we should deregulate food and water and housing too. let the companies decide! people will vote with their wallet and issues like monopolies and corporate consolidation and greed will magically disappear!

 

[MacGekko]

maybe we should deregulate food and water and housing too. let the companies decide! people will vote with their wallet and issues like monopolies and corporate consolidation and greed will magically disappear!

Those man on the street interviews really give me confidence as to the intelligence of the American consumer, pure folly that the consumer is always going to purchase the best or safest or whatever, and again for those that don't understand, this is not a complete free market, not while Apple and most major companies are taking government subsidies, last I checked Apple received about a billion from local and state governments, and their high powered tax attorneys can pull off "Double Irish" schemes.

And Tim Cook can look an interviewer in the face and declare that Apple can't have factories in American cities to build Iphones because Americans don't have the skills, sure, sure Tim, look I get it, if we built the Iphones in America, it would be $1700 vs. $1000 per phone, but don't let him get away with that BS, throw an Apple factory in Detroit and I bet people would learn real fast how to build an Iphone.