Apple Facing Potential Suspension of Italian Sales Amid Warranty Concerns

[dellata]

Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

Finally somebody who knows what is writing about. Thanks for your clear and precise statement.
Apple must simply accomplish EU laws. That's all
Regards

 

[organerito]

Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet.

----------



Oh God. Not again.

Isn't it one of the most intelligent things we have heard today?

 

[Glideslope]

Isn't it one of the most intelligent things we have heard today?

Just the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. Creative quote splicing there.

 

[Mad-B-One]

Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet.

lol yea, I will pay over $800 for my new phone and will be perfectly happy if it breaks after 13 months... NOT. This is not a throw-away toy. It's expensive and should work for 2 years at the least. Has nothing to do with socialism - just with common sense. Just because the USA does not protect the customers as it should does not mean that others shouldn't either. Actually, since you don't pay more in the EU for the same equipment but have a better protection means you get ripped off in the USA. Well, at least you can put your foil hat on and call it "socialism" instead of realizing you just got ripped off.

(for those who still don't get the price difference, read my prior posts )

 

[Stephen123]

Here's what Apple says where they sell Apple Care. The translation from Italian to English is an auto translation by Google. Apple is not accused (at this time) of lying about the warranty, or of failing to disclose the 2 year guaranteed warranty. They are accused of not being sufficiently aggressive in explaining Italian law to their customers.
-----
"Up to three years from original date of purchase of your computer, thanks to AppleCare Protection Plan will enjoy direct access telephone support from Apple qualified for questions about Apple hardware, Mac OS X, iLife and iWork. In addition you'll enjoy the full coverage of repair costs for your Mac (both in terms of spare parts and labor) through convenient service options. *

We've made it easy to register. Basically you have to do anything. When you purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan along with a new Mac, you'll be automatically registered in the plan. Immediately after sending your Mac, we'll send you an AppleCare Welcome Packet, which includes a valid certificate of coverage, and a Getting Started with the terms and conditions of the plan.

* The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details
For convenience, we recommend that you keep this package along with the rest of the Apple documentation."
-----
The "click here" link goes to:
http://images.apple.com/it/legal/warranty/additional_warranty_italy.pdf

 

[Mad-B-One]

Here's what Apple says where they sell Apple Care. The translation from Italian to English is an auto translation by Google. Apple is not accused (at this time) of lying about the warranty, or of failing to disclose the 2 year guaranteed warranty. They are accused of not being sufficiently aggressive in explaining Italian law to their customers.
-----
"Up to three years from original date of purchase of your computer, thanks to AppleCare Protection Plan will enjoy direct access telephone support from Apple qualified for questions about Apple hardware, Mac OS X, iLife and iWork. In addition you'll enjoy the full coverage of repair costs for your Mac (both in terms of spare parts and labor) through convenient service options. *

We've made it easy to register. Basically you have to do anything. When you purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan along with a new Mac, you'll be automatically registered in the plan. Immediately after sending your Mac, we'll send you an AppleCare Welcome Packet, which includes a valid certificate of coverage, and a Getting Started with the terms and conditions of the plan.

* The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details
For convenience, we recommend that you keep this package along with the rest of the Apple documentation."
-----
The "click here" link goes to:
http://images.apple.com/it/legal/warranty/additional_warranty_italy.pdf

Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.

 

[manu chao]

The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad.

I would be curious how you come up with the 142% for Germany. One major difference between Germany is for example the export surplus or the growth rate over the last decade.

 

[Nuvi]

Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country."

While they're at it Apple should then leave whole EU region. Every single company operating in EU has to provide two year warranty.

 

[MacinDoc]

Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.

You make a good point. Explaining the difference is more than saying "click here" to see what your rights are.

This isn't really all that difficult to do. Makes me wonder why Apple is taking so long to do it.

 

[gnasher729]

There you go.

Manufacturer's warranty is one year. Completely thruthful.

While they're at it Apple should then leave whole EU region. Every single company operating in EU has to provide two year warranty.

No manufacturer has to provide a two year warranty. Retailers must sell goods that are 'as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality'. Calling it a 'two year warranty' is oversimplifying.

I'm tired of Apple ignoring compulsory warranties, they pretend it doesn't apply to them or something! It should be just as easy to get a faulty product fixed within two years than it is within a year, and they simply say that you're out of warranty after a year, which isn't true.

An excellent argument, except that you are wrong. There's a manufacturer, and there's a retailer, and there are different rules for them. For most goods that you buy, you don't have a clue who the manufacturer might be, you deal with the retailer. That's why the EU laws put obligations on the retailer, not the manufacturer. Apple, as a manufacturer, has actually no obligation at all to give any warranty. But if you buy a product from an Apple store, online or retail, then Apple has an obligation, whether the producct you bought is made by Apple or not.

In the UK for a £2000 laptop Apple could be forced to fix a defect up to 5 years after purchase.

Not Apple, but the retailer. And you may be confusing that you have a certain time to make a claim, and how long a product has to last.

 

[doobybiggs]

I love Italy for standing up to Apple.

Curious to see how this goes when its all over.

 

[tdmac]

The standard "free from defect" warranty is two year; yet Apple's web-page shows the manufacturer warranty of one year. This is why the fine is justified.

Either, they add a third column - and spell out that the one-year manufacturer warranty is actually better (personally, I assume they are the same); or they change it to show two years of free repairs (repairs of defects that were present at the time of sale). This is the European law (Italy, Germany, etc are part of the EU by the way).

PS: I know from first-hand experience that Apple stores in EU do try to downplay the 2-year "free from defect" warranty. So it's not just about the web-site; it's about Apple's (read: Apple as seller to end-users) business practices as well. Usually, if you give the staff a hard time - they will accept it; but again: the law is clear; there should not be any argument in Apple stores (bricks-and mortar and on-line via 800-number).

No they do not need a third column and I personally don' think Apple is doing anything wrong here. The EU warranty is "Strictly" for defects that were present prior to purchase. This is not a direct correlation to a device/computer is defective if it dies after 12 months. As a consumer you have to then prove that this was a result of a defect that existed in that phone when you bought it. Something I think is extremely difficult and imagine time consuming. All the while you are without a replacement until that question is answered. If there was a mass problem that affected multiple devices then the warranty claim under EU would be that much easier.

What I am perplexed about is if this EU warranty applies to "ANYTHING" purchased from a store or only certain items. If so, then this is so commonplace that everyone should know this already. If obscure that it only applies to electronics or certain electronics then I could understand.

However, there is no comparison between what Applecare offers and the standard EU warranty. You get allot of value for the $$ for Applecare. Coverage for any defect that occurs after the unit is purchased. Phone support beyond the initial 90 days. Rapid replacement of iPhone & iPads, etc.

 

[Mad-B-One]

I would be curious how you come up with the 142% for Germany. One major difference between Germany is for example the export surplus or the growth rate over the last decade.

Wikipedia - even if it is the 2010 numbers, it isn't that much different right now. I know it has to do with productivity, but that is why the GDP is a good measure: if you have a higher GDP, you produce more. Ergo, the numbers being about equal in Italy and the USA means that they are about the same amount in debt by means of being able to pay it back - except that the sheer amount of the US debt can have a way more desasterous impact in case the debt will grow to the extend that everyone sees it won't be repaid. Also, there is no power on earth which could bail out the USA. Italy though is way less system critical and can be bailed out undr certain circumstances, at least partially. There is a lot of wealth amongst the people though which could be invested. Part of the Italian problem is that small business owners do not reinvest into the comany and don't thrive the grow but rather stagnate. Corruption and organized crime on the other hand are problems Italy is facing in higher per capita rates than other first world countries... The USA has the highest expenses for military per capita or GDP or in % of budget. This does not really create revenue though. As I stated, the problems are different.

 

[Nuvi]

Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet.

One year might be norm in US but two years is the law in EU. Its simple as that. BTW. Socialism?!? (don't use big word you don't understand...) Try consumer rights and democracy...

 

[Starship77]

Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.

Well, but if you DO click, this is what you see:

*image attached

My italian is not the best, but I think it explains quite clearly the differences between Apple Care and the government mandatory warranty.

 

[jagolden]

I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

Yes, America screwed the worlds economy. Apparently the rest of the world thought it was great or they wouldn't have tied themselves into it.
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

 

[boozezela]

The issue here is that the law is a 2-year warranty enforceable against the merchant, not the manufacturer.

This is important because it would be impossible for the governments to monitor and control every manufacturer from every country for compliance.

What Apple is offering is an extension of THEIR warranty from 1-3 years on computers, 1-2 years on iDevices, where they take care of everything. That includes phone support for 2/3 years instead of 90 days, repair and replacement of products, etc. This is not the same thing as what the 2-year warranty provides.

That Italy claims otherwise is a shakedown effort. They want Apple to bribe them. This is how it works in Italy (and much of the world, including smaller towns in the USA). Bribes and kangaroo courts.

It will all be sorted out. Italy will raise the fine and they won't grant an stay on appeal, so Apple will have to pay the fine in order to stay in business, even during their next appeal.

The typical uniformed and ignorant comment.

In Italy the manufacturer must provide coverage for 12 months.
The merchant must be able to provide coverage for 24 months.

When you buy let's say a TV, if it breaks down within the first 12 months you can choose to go back to the manufacturer or to go back to the shop. If it breaks down afterwards, you go back to the merchant and the merchant is supposed to cover for defects in the product without even flinching.

When it comes to Apple, as soon as you claim a defect after the 12th month they will tell you basically "Oh, noooo you see, we are the MANUFACTURER, not the merchant so we only need to cover you for 12 months. What a pity, next time you should buy an AppleCare".

This is all this is about. It is about Apple refusing to cover a product as a merchant and pushing an extended warranty as a manufacturer. Also be very well aware that "Apple the manufaturer" and "Apple the merchant" operate as separate companies in Italy.

It is not about failing economies (for which we all have to thank greedy american bankers), bribes, horses' heads or "offers you cannot refuse".

Very simple to understand if you actually know what you are talking about.

 

[Mad-B-One]

The EU warranty is "Strictly" for defects that were present prior to purchase.

What else would a warranty be? A warranty guaranties it won't break in a certain amount of time - ergo the parts used are not defective to the point that your purchaise is defaulting within that time frame.

The Apple Care Plan is not only an extended warranty but also an insurance because it covers things a "warranty" by definition cannot cover such as accidental damage.

This is not made clear. Simple as that.

 

[Nuvi]

No manufacturer has to provide a two year warranty. Retailers must sell goods that are 'as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality'. Calling it a 'two year warranty' is oversimplifying.

In many EU countries consumer can choose to request the repair or replacement either from the seller or manufacturer. However, the two year guarantee (not warranty since there is no premiums to be paid by the consumer) is fact and not open for debate.

Wherever you buy goods in the EU, you have two years to request repairs or replacement if they turn out to be faulty or not as advertised. If a product cannot be repaired or replaced within a reasonable time or without inconvenience, you may request a refund or price reduction.

The two-year guarantee period starts as soon as your goods are delivered, and you must inform the seller of the fault within two months of discovering it.

The seller is always liable, and in some EU countries you also have the right to request a remedy from the producer

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

 

[GS17]

Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested, and make very clear to the Italian public when and how to give feedback to the government about the unreasonable portions of law or regulation. Let the locals enjoy all costs and benefits.

Let them know pricing is connected to local rules including standards, fines and tarrifs. Give the example of Brazil tarrifs as an extreme example.

Rocketman

That's total nonsense, I haven't seen the packaging or promotional material in Italy (and I'm sure you haven't either), but I believe that Apple was aware of the 2 year EU law when they entered in business there and adjusted prices accordingly otherwise they will be willingly infringing the law by only doing 1 year just to not increase their prices.

The fines and possible ban on products is related to the fact that they seem not to be explaining to people the fact they are covered for 2 years and the extra coverage (AppleCare) is for years 2-3 which will make them lose 50% of their money's worth unless in the EU it actually covers years 3-4 and if it works this way many people will choose not to get AppleCare because they will not keep their equipment that long.

 

[Mad-B-One]

I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

FIRST: Nope, National Law following a EU guideline.
THIRD: That is German Law which exceeds the EU guideline. I think the guideling states 6m and then the switch but I might be wrong on that.
FOURTH: Yes, it is basically an insurance. Tha talso means that sometimes other insurances give you a similar or even better protection. I went with my phone carrier, for example, instead of the Apple Care Plan. It covered more and I needed less proof - such as "I lost my phone."

 

[dpasc]

I never get this legal mumbo-jumbo...

I'm moving to Italy in September, but I'm buying my laptop here in Canada (with apple care). Does this mean that Apple in Italy may not repair my laptop if I have issues?

 

[organerito]

Just the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. Creative quote splicing there.

I could have sworn you are from Alabama, Arizona, Texas or any other horrible thing like that.

Just before I laugh at you, is, according to your truth, Socialist=Bad?

 

[j4zb4]

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

I really do agree with this point of yours... Especially since two years ago my business having suffered the result of American greed... The only reason the American economy is still standing is because of their banks... And we all know where the banks got the monies from (if you don't please google it)... But not many people understand the finer terms... people ted to look at the fake picture and think all is well...

Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

You hit the nail right on the head... Took the words straight out of my mouth...

 

[Mad-B-One]

Yes, America screwed the worlds economy. Apparently the rest of the world thought it was great or they wouldn't have tied themselves into it.
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

Actually, Germany has roughly half the unemployment rate compared to the U.S. with better benefits for the ones which actually loose their jobs e.g. starting benefits after working for 1 year, not 1.5 years, mandatory affordable health care covering 100% of your health care corsts (except a prescription co-pay of about $7 per medication without limit on how many medications), etc. I worked in both economies and a lot of people - including you - don't even know the difference between "socialist" and "social free maket" - but then again, WalMart has a special on tin hats.

Edit: German Constitution (Art 14 (2) GG) states "Ownership is a Duty" - my free interpretation. It simply means that you having wealth own it to the society to give back because they made it possible for you to have it in the first place.