Apple Factory Conditions

[Zarathurstra]

Apple knew of worker exploitation

Companies like Apple exploit Chinese labor to keep manufacturing costs down and bottom lines up! It's ludicrous to believe that Apple executives did not know that Chinese workers were being abused and exploited, when they are there for that very reason! It's unpatriotic, in my opinion, and, un-Christian to give American jobs to non-American workers simply to exploit them for greater profits. I'm willing to pay an extra $20.00 for my ipod to be made by American workers! Are you?

Jack Chamberlin

 

[Shadow]

See post 133 on the first misconception. The Mail's a rag, but it's not the Daily Sport. And yes, you're right, Britain is feverishly anti-Apple. Forget stories about the royal family, the world cup or asylum seekers, hating Steve Jobs is right at the forefront of consumer consciousness here. It's the first thing an evil lying hack would think of on a slow news day.

Thats why I'm going to Manchester (yes-a few hundered miles) JUST to buy a MacBook?! Hey, if I'm gonna buy a Mac I wanna do it in the most classy way possible! That reminds, me...MacBook in 2 days!

 

[Choppaface]

What a way to use satire to ruin a perfectly good point, even if the satire is done for satire's sake. :/

I was attempting to point out that sweeping housing prices under the mystical economics umbrella of demand doesn't really explain anything, or back up the poster's point. Demand is not this static concept, but rather an amalgam of a lot of concepts and factors. So saying that the price of an item is /just/ based off demand is over-simplifying it.

you're still wrong because you didn't say that prettily enough. "sweeping ... under the mysical ... umbrella" and "amalgam of a lot of concepts" are so cliche, like omg times a thousand.

it's kind of ironic that apple is having this PR case and yet their stock's rep just got fluffed

THIS POST CERTIFIED ORGANIC

 

[henryhbk]

They don't prefer to work 12 hours a day, they are forced(according to the article) to do so... To make a decision you normally have choices, I don't really see the choice here.

You are living in a compound, start work in the morning, 8 hours later you stand up, head out, and some guy says you have to sit your rear down for another 4 hours, you say "hell no, I'm going home" and the guard chuckles and says "what home? from this moment you don't have one"

So again, what decision???

It's sort of like all of us physicians who did a residency (we worked often longer than that, had no choice (if you want to be boarded you have to complete a residency). And we made around $10/hr (some residencies are 8 years long, after 4 years of school which cost $150,000+). In New York City, that was not a living wage when you had a family, and spent about 50+% of your income on rent (sound familiar? Sounds just like those workers!). Nurses often have mandatory overtime. Many other positions do to.

In most lower income brackets people spend about 50% of their wages on room & board. The fact that they can purchase this for about 50% of their wages, mean that the wages are not really out of line with their living expenses.

And finally, China has a HUGE unemployment problem, and I am sure that if these people were given the choice (and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would take the job if they didn't want it) they would keep their jobs.

 

[Maxx Power]

I do agree with some of your points. But what is the other option? To allow the government to restrict free markets and free trade because of a few ignorant and short sighted players? These failures are there own downfall, and goverments typically are reactive and restrictive, rather than proactive, with inplementing policies of "fairness" that end up hurting all members of a open market.

Yes, I do believe in the THEORY, that the markets will end up taking care of the bad companies, more so than gov't.

Yes, look at Microsoft. They got to be powerfull by producing a product that was of benefit. But they did not start out as a monopoly, I hope we all know that. Bill Gates is not a all powerfull Sith, as much as we would like to believe so.

So, yes they were/are a monopoly, but as a result they stiffled there own in innovations and a company like Apple was able to capture the segments of the computing market by innovation. Even though Microsoft is, or was, a monopoly, their power was still limited to the markets. And the markets, in the case of online music and devices, choose Apple. Is it really that hard to believe that for 10 or so years Microsoft simply produced the best computing products?? Well we could argue again that people were forced, but than were back were we started, not accepting that the other computing companies simply had crappy products.

Apple didn't accept that Microsoft was a monopoly. They did not run for cover and scream for the goverment to kill the evil company, instead they turned around and fought Microsoft on a territory that was believed to be owned. Firefox is doing the same thing!

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anarchy. Free markets still have rules, and those that cheat should get punished. But more often than not, protectionist ideals don't only hurt the so called bad companies, the "Microsofts", they hurt everyone else who plays the game.

You see, to propose a proper alternative to current globalization, you need a neutral party. The U.S. is never going to represent the interest of the rest of the world. Hence the version of the current globalization is geared toward unilateral benefits. Not to mention there is still no such thing as free trade with the U.S. heavily subsidizing its own production of various products like grain. But however, such a measure requires equal political powers we have not seen since the time of the Cold War. In the interest of economics that will never happen, since the interest is self-perpetuating.

There isn't a proper solution to this problem under the current global situation since the global economic relationships have already been established by dominant forces who then go on to change the laws of every country it touches. A proper solution would necessitate the eradication of our current system in place, which I do not think most people who have financial resources (who will become investors in the new system) would like to participate.

 

[greenstork]

no, greed is the right word...what you just said is that greed is endemic in capitalist production. systematic greed doesn't really make me feel better than the greed of one particular company.

on the other hand, i get frustrated when people enamored with macs think that apple is somehow different from any other tech company when it comes to the basic building blocks of corporate structure. to put it another way, nike always takes the PR hit but adidas has factories right next door...the logic of globalized marketplaces (which extend directly from historical colonial expansion) has always been to transfer wealth and resources from poorer regions of the world to richer ones. the term 'free market' is a misnomer...it always been about who gets to set the rules. because there are rules...and if apple wants to sell electronics worldwide they play by them.

it sucks. and if an alternative to capitalism meant no ipods, i would still be all for it.

<reality check> Corporations are in business to make money. Responsible corporations that don't earn a profit go out of business. </reality check>

You, and a hundred others on this thread make a dangerous assumption. That is, you assume that wealth and salaries in developing nations are inadequate or unsatisfactory to have a meaningful quality of life. I'm not saying that's not, mind you, I'm just not willing to jump to that conclusion automatically because it doesn't meet my cultural norms.

The only people qualified to even comment on this thread are people who have some understanding of the culture of China (i.e. working conditions, pay scales, corporate culture). Otherwise, you're forming an opinion of what the quality of life is like for these workers in China based on your cultural norms, which is rather arrogant...

 

[Maxx Power]

You have no idea what you are talking about...you would have been much closer to the truth if you had said something like

Globalization = Big Business taking over world

Then, after you are done saying that, use the term "Multinational corporations" a few times, and make sure you tie it to "controlling the world"

Look, business and captial gain is COMPETITION. You live in a dream world if you think anyone (outside of Christians and Philanthropists) is really interested in advancing the condition of the human experience.

Oh, and put your money where your mouth is before you reply

And in your humble opinion, sir, ethically good and morally upright people are the richest people in the world, since you can't be much of a philantropist without money to give.

You live in a dream world full of car exhaust and pesticides if you think that people out of your circle don't want to improve their lives and that the earth is approx. 6000 years old.

Business and capital gain and their competition is like competition in the olympics, whoever takes the most steriods without being caught wins the race. You can't possibly compete against heavily subsidized U.S. grain industry for example, even if you have been producing non-GMO grain in third world countries for decades if not centuries.

To the outer world, there is no distinction between an American corporation and an multinational corporation, since the States rightfully granted corporations private citizen status and protects them with the same laws that govern individuals. Hence one of the reasons why just about all Japanese big businesses have subsidiaries and divisions in the U.S., it's not just for moving products.

Oh, and please don't normalize everyone elses' perspective of what "human experience" is to yours, that's so American...

 

[Maxx Power]

<reality check>The only people qualified to even comment on this thread are people who have some understanding of the culture of China (i.e. working conditions, pay scales, corporate culture). Otherwise, you're forming an opinion of what the quality of life is like for these workers in China based on your cultural norms, which is rather arrogant...

Exactly. If you were born and lived here all your life, please don't say anything you learned on this subject matter, it's very offensive to most of the population in the world.

 

[seashellz]

Heres where we are at: first-the overseas workers cannot afford to live on $100 a month-unless the average rent of a 1 bdrm apt is $40-we dont know if $100/month in China makes you dirt poor or middle income-can they live fairly well off that or not?
Second, with all the manufacturing moving out of the country, (USA)we here will be left with either: lower paying service jobs, or no jobs at all-how will we be able to buy the things they are making over there?
With the price of oil and gas=transportation rising, the price of getting the stuff over to us is going to make things more expense, and further out of reach;
IF the price of oil/transport get TOO high-it might make financial sense to move the factories back to the US-as long as they dont try and pay us 'service worker' wages, in which case we will not be able to afford buying the products we produce here anyway.
We know the dollar is not very healthy.
And Ive just read somewhere that the price of electronic is ready to crash-
if true, you could buy an iPod and get a FREE G5 Desktop in the bargain!
Just kidding (I hope)

 

[greenstork]

You see, to propose a proper alternative to current globalization, you need a neutral party. The U.S. is never going to represent the interest of the rest of the world. Hence the version of the current globalization is geared toward unilateral benefits. Not to mention there is still no such thing as free trade with the U.S. heavily subsidizing its own production of various products like grain. But however, such a measure requires equal political powers we have not seen since the time of the Cold War. In the interest of economics that will never happen, since the interest is self-perpetuating.

There isn't a proper solution to this problem under the current global situation since the global economic relationships have already been established by dominant forces who then go on to change the laws of every country it touches. A proper solution would necessitate the eradication of our current system in place, which I do not think most people who have financial resources (who will become investors in the new system) would like to participate.

The U.S. is going into debt as a result of globalization, and China is running a massive surplus. So much so in fact, that they're buying U.S. companies like IBM's computer division, now Lenovo, and have made a failed bid to buy U.S. oil company Unocal. You may cite problems with workers' conditions as a result of globalization, but China is developing into a world economic superpower on the backs of greedy American consumers who don't know when to stop spending and borrowing.

If we had this conversation again in 20 years, you'd be singing an entirely different tune.

 

[corvus]

Oh, and "forever remain a mystery"? Isn't that a bit breathlessly tabloidy?

Yes. I learned the trade sort of through the Scripts-Howard organization with their "man bites dog" mentality: Action verbs. Small words. Short Sentences. Good spelling. (http://www.spellingbee.com/) Incomplete sentences. The whole bit.

 

[geefunk3]

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I know for a fact that Apple does in fact enforce (or at least inspect) factories that they work with. My friend's father works at a company that builds parts for Apple in Taiwan and China and they had to go through an extremely rigorous inspection before Apple would sign the deal. The factories had to be spotlessly clean and ISO certified. $100 a month may not seem like a lot to us in the States but I believe it is a satisfactory wage for factory worker in China. A lot of times, the workers are also housed and boarded in the factories, which cuts down on their expenses. It may seem cruel or harsh to us, but many Chinese laborers still live in conditions without running water, electricity, or regular income. I know it sounds like an excuse, but let's keep an open mind and not judge other cultures based on our own standards of living. Maybe German people look at us and pity us for not having 6-8 weeks of vacation every year. If these companies are mistreating their workers, I'm sure that Apple will resolve the issue, their public image is at stake.

 

[Maxx Power]

The U.S. is going into debt as a result of globalization, and China is running a massive surplus. So much so in fact, that they're buying U.S. companies like IBM's computer division, now Lenovo, and have made a failed bid to buy U.S. oil company Unocal. You may cite problems with workers' conditions as a result of globalization, but China is developing into a world economic superpower on the backs of greedy American consumers who don't know when to stop spending and borrowing.

If we had this conversation again in 20 years, you'd be singing an entirely different tune.

Okay, you overlooked my point. If you speak of China as a singular entity, and not of its constituent people then, maybe. I'm talking about the fair and equitable treatment of its constituent workers and the exploitation. Superpower or not, if you give all the money of the U.S. to China, and then give it to the people, you are still talking pittances per person. China is draining the U.S. the way the U.S. was draining the Soviets back in the days of the Cold War, and use the surplus to invest in national defense, an investment that can't backfire because you shoot other people with it.

In 20 years, it is estimated that the major rivers in China will stop flowing due to loss of inland glaciers from global warming (this time, locallized warming). That, plus surging natural gas and oil prices would put a huge dent in the development of Chinese economy and further the decay of the US economy. They will never reach the pinnacle of economic supreme that the U.S. did, there is simply not enough land and resources left over...

 

[corvus]

someone earlier said that this is what life in china is like and that most are ok with it.... the former is true the latter is not.....

i live in china and there is a growing amount of discontent in this country......most workers are not ok with it.. they simply have no other options economically and more importantly they have no rights to unionize.....

Actually this is good news. Hopefully the Chinese people will someday be able to pull off a velvet revolution. The Soviet Union and the East Block fell when the people had had enough. Free trade can possibility help this happen in China. I believe and hope it will. Give people a little look at freedom and there is almost no turning back. Freedom is a core need of humans.

Also, while no one really believes big business consists of nice people who want equal opportunity for all---duh---it's much easier to control a business which only has money, than to control a government which has folks who like to play with machine guns against their neighbors. Now, if the bigness of business and government join together, that could be a problem.

 

[greenstork]

Okay, you overlooked my point. If you speak of China as a singular entity, and not of its constituent people then, maybe. I'm talking about the fair and equitable treatment of its constituent workers and the exploitation. Superpower or not, if you give all the money of the U.S. to China, and then give it to the people, you are still talking pittances per person. China is draining the U.S. the way the U.S. was draining the Soviets back in the days of the Cold War, and use the surplus to invest in national defense, an investment that can't backfire because you shoot other people with it.

In 20 years, it is estimated that the major rivers in China will stop flowing due to loss of inland glaciers from global warming (this time, locallized warming). That, plus surging natural gas and oil prices would put a huge dent in the development of Chinese economy and further the decay of the US economy. They will never reach the pinnacle of economic supreme that the U.S. did, there is simply not enough land and resources left over...

You were quick to point that finger at globalization as the culprit and I think the concerns you raise are more a result of political and socioeconomic decisions within China, that's all I was saying. China is profiting greatly from globalization. As the country rapidly develops in the coming decades, with the continued influx of more western money, the cultural landscape will change. Look at how much it has already.

 

[Maxx Power]

You were quick to point that finger at globalization as the culprit and I think the concerns you raise are more a result of political and socioeconomic decisions within China, that's all I was saying. China is profiting greatly from globalization. As the country rapidly develops in the coming decades, with the continued influx of more western money, the cultural landscape will change. Look at how much it has already.

However, big businesses and political leaders are the ones who are most benefitted from our current globalization. The problem is still present in that while globalization brought some chinese people economic viability, it has left behind most. I don't think I can walk down a street in China not finding people who are out of jobs and would like to be employed by whomever, and whatever means necessary. The interesting thing that is different in china compared to here is that, while under socialist regime, most people worked for state-ran industries, and since WTO, these people have been laid off to compete with western efficiency. We're looking at a huge proportion of unemployed workers who rallied the streets. All that influx of western money just means that those who have them can consolidate their power, and those who don't fight over it like hungry hyenas. China has changed a lot over the last while since the Deng Xiao Ping years. But that doesn't mean it necessarily became simultaneously better in all aspects. Environment for example went for much worse than predicted, the desertification of Bejing is a real threat to China (related to hosting the olympics too). Employment, especially employment in career deployment sectors really went down the hill since the state nolonger provides employment, and placement strategies. Education at secondary levels took a turn for the worst being no-longer state sponsored became too expensive for some to afford. Local producers and farmers are pushed out of business due to the subsidized equivalents found at local WalMarts. The gap between the rich and the poor significantly widened. All the while, the government still retaining a strangle-hold on the population the way it did when it was purely socialist. In essence, globalization improved a few aspects but bringing with it, the downfalls of western civilization and worsening other aspects. That at least, for the short term only, it is a mixed blessing for China (the political entity), that for the long term is just as unsustainable as it is for us.

 

[morespce54]

I am truly starting to believe that most of the posters on this board are a bunch of naive 10 year olds . Do you really think that they aren't outsourcing the production of these ipods and computer for monetary reasons? I'm sure Apple like every other large billion dollar company is trying to squeeze every penny out of it cost of production, for the sharholders and their uppermangemant's pockets.

Maybe, but does it mean we have to fatally accept this? I think it's good that peoples which disagree with this type of behaviour can stand up and say it. Will it change the way America see the world and make their (capitalistic) rules? Probably no.

I still think that it's better that people that disagrees with these comportments to say it than to simply watch the train goes by.

 

[Counter]

$50USD PER MONTH???? What??????? Is that what people usually get paid in china??????

Hello world

 

[adroit]

<reality check> Corporations are in business to make money. Responsible corporations that don't earn a profit go out of business. </reality check>

You, and a hundred others on this thread make a dangerous assumption. That is, you assume that wealth and salaries in developing nations are inadequate or unsatisfactory to have a meaningful quality of life. I'm not saying that's not, mind you, I'm just not willing to jump to that conclusion automatically because it doesn't meet my cultural norms.

The only people qualified to even comment on this thread are people who have some understanding of the culture of China (i.e. working conditions, pay scales, corporate culture). Otherwise, you're forming an opinion of what the quality of life is like for these workers in China based on your cultural norms, which is rather arrogant...

very well said.

And for those of you who thinks it would cost $20 more to built an iPod in the US please go do some more reasearch before you post anything like it. First of all, it will take a lot more than 1 hr of human time to build an iPod. Second, it cost a lot more to build an operate a factory in the US due to property price etc. Don't you think that if only cost $20 more to built it in the US, Apple would just take a save in the shipping cost and import dealies.. and move their factory here already?

 

[bluefido]

OK, some prevailing ideas on this thread: this is business, they wouldn't work there if they didn't choose to, they probably make more at this job then at other jobs, etc.

Because it is business and because this may be a market wage in China does not make this acceptable conditions. What's described here is what occurs frequently in China: capitalist work camps (no joke) -- young men or women sign up to work at foreign contractors manufacturing plants where on-compound dormitories are provided (but paid for by the employees). They work 12 to 14 hours a day without much legal recourse or flexibility because a) they're in China b) they signed a contract without knowing it's intentions.

Listen, I have a Mac and an iPod, and I'd be a hypocrite to say I'm free of the shared guilt for buying goods that were probably made under poor working conditions. But this is the consequence of globilization, where the pursuit of profits and free markets is an excuse for ignoring the human condition.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but on the whole, I believe globalization is good and beneficial even for those Chinese factory workers working 12-14 hours a day.

One, you do not exactly see China closing its doors to oppresive capitalist regimes. The reason being that it is actually beneficial to China as a whole to accept free trade and globalization. The last time I checked the Chinese were buying US Treasuries like the Golem hoards his Precious and China's trade surplus vis a vis the US was quite healthy. China recently purchased Boeing airplanes as a gesture of goodwill. If anybody should be complaining, it's the Americans living in the manfacturing rust belts. They are the ones who clearly have a lesser standard of living than they are used to.

Second, there is a demand for those jobs in China. No, they do not enjoy what Americans and other Western countries reasonable working conditions. However, the previous available jobs, if any, would not in our opinions be very reasonable either. As cost of labor and working conditions in accordance with Chinese law goes up naturally as it has in the US (read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair to see what working conditions were like in early 20th century US), corporations will look elsewhere for cheap labor as well. See also South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore where free trade and globalization have enabled those economies and countries to provide much higher standards of living within the past fifty years. Whereas, all the clothes, shoes, and other random goods use to be, "Made in Taiwan or Korea." Now, it is "Made in China." No one can honestly suggest that globalization and capitalism were overall bad things to those countries.

Third, maybe some people like to pay 50% - 100% premiums on iPods made in US. More power to them. But I guarantee you, that the other 99% of consumers would not. Creating much less incentive for Apple to develop iPods and similar products.

Fourth, there are many other arguments that in favor of globalization including the increasing numbers of qualified and highly educated Chinese and Indian engineers and software developers. They increase competition, wages, and the quality of life for more people than less.

Fifth, I often work 12-14 hours in this oppressive US of A....

 

[bluefido]

The U.S. is going into debt as a result of globalization, and China is running a massive surplus. So much so in fact, that they're buying U.S. companies like IBM's computer division, now Lenovo, and have made a failed bid to buy U.S. oil company Unocal. You may cite problems with workers' conditions as a result of globalization, but China is developing into a world economic superpower on the backs of greedy American consumers who don't know when to stop spending and borrowing.

If we had this conversation again in 20 years, you'd be singing an entirely different tune.

Agreed. In about 25 years, people will be complaining on this forum about the capitalist Chinese pigs. Globalization is not perfect, but overall, it benefits more people than less.

 

[Chang-er]

Working in asia

Guys guys...

Please keep in mind that much of the world's standard of living is not as high as it is here... I grew up in Asia, and until recently worked there..

The standard wage out of college in Hong Kong, albeit a higher standard of living than China itself is approximately, $705/month USD

and Across the border standard out of college, with a BA degree is appox. $400-450/Mo.... USD maybe less...

so if you factor in no college education, and being an assembly line worker.. $150 is not too bad.

And as an example rent for a mid to high quality apt in the same area as where the Apple factory is, is approximately $400-$500/mon USD.... also a large meal for 6-8 people at a good restaurant will only set the whole table back $40USD TOTAL..

So when you factor in all these things such as corporate living, and cheaper eating expenses.. its not too bad. People over there make money go a long way.....

Yes apple is making money but you must factor in all the costs it takes to advertise, package, design all these things... if they made the IPODs here we'd all be paying upwards of $1000 each..

so Please don't compare numbers. its two different worlds..

 

[Counter]

so Please don't compare numbers. its two different worlds..

Well said, thread ender.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

But, surely, the solution here is that the multination companies take a small hit on their own ludicrously high margins. We all know, as Mac users, that a Mac costs more to buy than an equivalent spec PC. A lot more. We all justify this in terms of product quality, getting iLife etc., but in reality they could sell iPods on a lower margin without any trouble. The iPod margins - even after R&D - are very high, and could be a lot less. Apple are a rich company, sitting on vast reserves, unlike many others. They are well placed to lead the way towards fairtrade, or at lease banning sweatshop conditions, if they choose to.

They choose not to. That they're not embarassed about partenering with Nike says a lot, and you can't imagine Bono and Steve seeing eye to eye on that either.

Yeah I totally agree with your point however how many companies lower there profit margins to give their employees better working conditions, I can't really name any.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

<reality check>The only people qualified to even comment on this thread are people who have some understanding of the culture of China (i.e. working conditions, pay scales, corporate culture). Otherwise, you're forming an opinion of what the quality of life is like for these workers in China based on your cultural norms, which is rather arrogant....

Wouldn't that be ignorance rather than arrogance?