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Apple Factory Conditions

ezekielrage_99 said:
how many companies lower there profit margins to give their employees better working conditions, I can't really name any.
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Everytime a company improves a break area, installs air conditioning, puts in soft mats to stand on, builds a daycare center, aren't they taking a lower profit margin to improve working conditions? My company spends $60,000 a year paying people to pick up cigarette butts, and begging the smokers to be neater. Couldn't they save $60,000 a year, plus the cost of air conditioning and lighting the smoke shacks, by simply banning smoking on their property? Lots of good companies spend money on impovements that they don't have to make to benefit their employees. Are they doing this out of the kindness of their hearts? I doubt it. They are just hoping the the saying "A happy worker is a productive worker" is true. I guess they aren't actually taking a lower profit margin, they are investing some of their profit and hoping to get a good return via better workers.
 
another angle

ezekielrage_99 said:
Wouldn't that be ignorance rather than arrogance?
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Oh yes, it's arrogance. If one doesn't accept the cultural norms of China where the communists control all aspects of life and regulate people having children, how they worship, how they work and their conditions, then you aren't accepting their "cultural norms" and need to refrain from doing so.

This is an age old argument to justify anything and everything in regard to Human Rights.

Next, we'll hear about how it is the internal affairs of another country and we shouldn't interfere. That was the old Soviet stand by.

Funny how those thoughts are now trotted out here. :cool:
 
'mericans & attitude

lord_flash said:
National Inquirer, anyone? Certainly British tabloids have a knack for sensationalising stories, but it's not the same as making them up. That's something you 'merikans can claim credit for. Also, so you know, the Mail is tabloid format - as are virtually all british newspapers these days, including the Times - but is targeted at midscale market. A fascious, but not wholly inaccurate, summary of the British press (courtesey fictional minister Jim Hacker):
- The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country;
- The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country;
- The Times is read by people who actually do run the country;
- The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country;
- The Financial Times is read by people who own the country;
- The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country;
- And the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is."



What? On what is this random comment based? Do you have any vidence, whasoever to support your claim? Apple get a similarly generous press in the UK as they do in the US. They've not sold that many because they're really expensive.
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Loved the newspaper reader list ;)

First I am British not 'merican (funny how you assumed that) and I my reference to anti- Apple issues in the UK is based on nearly two decades of running a large Apple Computer dealership in Britain. Experience in dealing with government policies related to supplying Apple and seeing everything from the BBC Micro onwards. What is your expertise based on?

BTW Trick out a PC to the same level as a Mac in hardware and software and throw in support and down time... Macs ... have always been LESS EXPENSIVE in reality.

The Manufacturing issues by any company in 3rd World factories is a serious matter and this whole topic is seeing some very deep and interesting comments from all view points.
 
First I am British not 'merican (funny how you assumed that) and I my reference to anti- Apple issues in the UK is based on nearly two decades of running a large Apple Computer dealership in Britain. Experience in dealing with government policies related to supplying Apple and seeing everything from the BBC Micro onwards. What is your expertise based on?
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I'm a tech journalist and author on number of Mac-reated books, but beyond that I'd go so far as to say that I just read a lot here. So what you're saying is that Apple not so much get a bad press (let's be fair, this story aside, iPods and macs are generally quite well regarded), but it's hard to sell into government channels. Nobody ever got fired for buying Dell, sort of thing? That's fair enough, there's a lot of truth in that.

BTW Trick out a PC to the same level as a Mac in hardware and software and throw in support and down time... Macs ... have always been LESS EXPENSIVE in reality.
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Well, yes and no. Support and downtime might be a fair point, but the thing is it's not as easy for a consumer. If their Dell never breaks then they've got 100%. Only in a much larger organisation do things like that start to average out so you can work out whether you're making a saving. A case in point: I've owned 4 computers since I had to abandon RiscOS, a grey-import Win 98 laptop which never had any trouble, a beautiful Sony Vaio (Win 2k) which similarly operated perfectly for years and still does, though the fan is a bit noisy. Next my Apple PowerBookG4 has been the least reliable machine I ever bought, appauling screen flaws, eventually repaired on recall only for them to mess up the rest of the machine. It had to be returned and took another month to fix. I've also got a G5 iMac which is fine. So, I know it's just bad luck, but I've had most trouble from the most expensive computer I've ever bought, and my first Mac.
 
PC Mac

lord_flash said:
I'm a tech journalist and author on number of Mac-reated books, but beyond that I'd go so far as to say that I just read a lot here. So what you're saying is that Apple not so much get a bad press (let's be fair, this story aside, iPods and macs are generally quite well regarded), but it's hard to sell into government channels. Nobody ever got fired for buying Dell, sort of thing? That's fair enough, there's a lot of truth in that.



Well, yes and no. Support and downtime might be a fair point, but the thing is it's not as easy for a consumer. If their Dell never breaks then they've got 100%. Only in a much larger organisation do things like that start to average out so you can work out whether you're making a saving. A case in point: I've owned 4 computers since I had to abandon RiscOS, a grey-import Win 98 laptop which never had any trouble, a beautiful Sony Vaio (Win 2k) which similarly operated perfectly for years and still does, though the fan is a bit noisy. Next my Apple PowerBookG4 has been the least reliable machine I ever bought, appauling screen flaws, eventually repaired on recall only for them to mess up the rest of the machine. It had to be returned and took another month to fix. I've also got a G5 iMac which is fine. So, I know it's just bad luck, but I've had most trouble from the most expensive computer I've ever bought, and my first Mac.
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OK I agree with you mostly however on the Mac v PC cost of ownership I think you will find it isn't a hardware argument - it is an OS one. The Gartner Studies found Macs cost less to maintain than PCs and I believe it is all down to problems with Windows at the end of the day. Now PCs and Macs are both Intel that is all that's left to differentiate them anyway. Your Forum handle indicates you have a high opinion of your own beliefs so i won't argue further ;) OK back to The World Cup ...
 
Why is it bad that America is outsourcing? I think it's fine that they do it, it's called capitalism.

And sure, $100 a month seems low to us here demaning much higher wages, but in China and other countries, employees aren't forced to work at the apple plants. They can easily choose to leave and go to another manufacturing plant if apple is mistreating them.
 
TallShaffer said:
Why is it bad that America is outsourcing? I think it's fine that they do it, it's called capitalism.

And sure, $100 a month seems low to us here demaning much higher wages, but in China and other countries, employees aren't forced to work at the apple plants. They can easily choose to leave and go to another manufacturing plant if apple is mistreating them.
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Capitalism is acquiring and has been for the last little while, the reputation of Communism since the collapse of the Soviets as we gradually find out what Capitalism means in terms of its benefits and downfalls now that the cold war propaganda days are over. Starting a new set ot middle east propaganda days...

You can't point away from yourself and say it is okay if "they" get paid 100 dollars a month. So much for "all men are created equal". We're talking the same companies who used to employ americans and somehow they valued that American workers deserved more money and better treatment since the power for this kind of stuff is all in their hands. This is typical exploitation, and we're seeing a great comeback in human resources exploitation under capitalistic countries now that we did back in the USSR/China communism days, and further back in the western slave labour days.

Talking about alternatives for the workers - it's not much of an alternative when there are a total of 5 or 6 major ODM's in the world (who provide the actual manufacturering of products), and they are all more or less in the same place - southern china. If you have no trades or skills (due to costly living and education in china), you are stuck doing labour jobs. There is no alternative, you have to remember, these Southern Chinese people don't drive around in vehicles and many can't even afford bikes, travelling itself becomes an expensive affair for those living in the remote, which is where the factories are built (suburbs). The situation is entirely biased toward the big companies. Like it was here just after the ending of slavery - the black people had no jobs, and had no where to go. You also have to keep in mind that in China, the government can take away your farm land when it thinks you will likely live just as well being employed by someone else in a factory with no air conditioning in southern china as being employed by yourself doing whatever you want.
 
Romanesq said:
Oh yes, it's arrogance. If one doesn't accept the cultural norms of China where the communists control all aspects of life and regulate people having children, how they worship, how they work and their conditions, then you aren't accepting their "cultural norms" and need to refrain from doing so.

This is an age old argument to justify anything and everything in regard to Human Rights.

Next, we'll hear about how it is the internal affairs of another country and we shouldn't interfere. That was the old Soviet stand by.

Funny how those thoughts are now trotted out here. :cool:
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Whatever, all I said, essentially, was have some context before opening your mouth. I'm quite surprised to get berated for that opinion.

It's arrogant and ignorant to have absolutely no sense of Chinese culture before commenting.

Or would you have us believe that there are no gray areas in life, that right and wrong is absolutely objective and self-evident? What is acceptable or unacceptable in one culture, is exactly how it should be in all cultures. Please :rolleyes:
 
You should just give up. You are not going to win arguments with people who employ seriously incoherent logic. i.e. Maxx Power.
 
TimDaddy said:
If a company can't make money without moving production to China, I'm still trying to figure out how the Ragu plant near Bowling Green, KY can pay its production workers $18.00 per hour, but still sell the product for less than $3.00 per jar.
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Actually, it's very simple how US companies can pay their workers high wages in manufacturing facilities and still make money. They replace the low paid workers with machines. Show me a factory with $18/hr workers and I'll show you a highly automated facility.
 
another localized analogy:

Youve heard it said: "Wow! People (in the USA) only made $5 a day back in the 1900s!!!!?"

True. But then, in the 1900s you could buy a 4 bedroom House on a 1/4 acre of land for $2000, a loaf of bread was a nickel, a new car for $500... etc etc etc.

So if you made $5 a day-you were fairly well off.

Today, you can make $2,000 a month, but that 4 bedroom house might cost
half million-depending where you are located, -and be out of your reach, financially...so the $5 a day guy in some ways had MORE purchasing power than we do today.

On the other hand comsumer 'gadgets' if they existed at all back then were expensive, but due to mass production are very cheap today.

Remember in 1997 when DVD players came out-they were $800-1000?

Now you can practically get them free in every specailly-marked box of Kelloggs Raisin Bran...
 
Maxx Power said:
Like it was here just after the ending of slavery - the black people had no jobs, and had no where to go.
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And it's just like that today... all the "black people" live in Alabama etc., and Detroit is 100% honky white.

Hmmm... no, that's not right... how DID all those "black people" get up there, anyway??? :confused:
 
lord_flash said:
But, surely, the solution here is that the multination companies take a small hit on their own ludicrously high margins. We all know, as Mac users, that a Mac costs more to buy than an equivalent spec PC. A lot more. We all justify this in terms of product quality, getting iLife etc., but in reality they could sell iPods on a lower margin without any trouble. The iPod margins - even after R&D - are very high, and could be a lot less. Apple are a rich company, sitting on vast reserves, unlike many others. They are well placed to lead the way towards fairtrade, or at lease banning sweatshop conditions, if they choose to.

They choose not to. That they're not embarassed about partenering with Nike says a lot, and you can't imagine Bono and Steve seeing eye to eye on that either.
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Yes, Apple is sitting on vast reserves. However, you are also talking about a company that was close to bankrupt less than 10 years ago.
 
Yamson said:
Pretty much, yes.


Second, this is the way work is in China. This isn't abnormal. East-Asian culture values hard work very much, above all else. These people WANT to work 15 hours a day and probably would work more if given the chance.

I'm not saying it's pleasant, but it's what people accept and live with. And, honestly, they're okay with it for the most part.
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Come on... this is NOT true! People in India or China don't work 15 hours a day because they like it, they wouldn't work "even more if given the chance" - they do it because they HAVE TO - because otherwise there'll be not enough bucks to buy food, pay the rent, and other BASIC stuff. They can't get a decent wage because the whole economic system of this world is pretty screwed up, so while we get fatter and go to mc donalds' on our S.U.V. where we listen to our iPods while we wait for our big mac, they either work 15 hours a day or NOT survive.

There's no point in trying to say that they do it 'cause they like it. I'm sorry if the truth gives us all a guilt trip, but that's the way it is.
In Asia reality bites and they have the tooth marks to prove it.
 
bluefido said:
You should just give up. You are not going to win arguments with people who employ seriously incoherent logic. i.e. Maxx Power.
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Something about your statement with the word "incoherent logic" compounded with "just give up" with the intention "win arguments" puts you on the list of posters here who is interested in winning arguments for personal satisfaction rather than enlightenment.
 
greenstork said:
Or would you have us believe that there are no gray areas in life, that right and wrong is absolutely objective and self-evident? What is acceptable or unacceptable in one culture, is exactly how it should be in all cultures. Please :rolleyes:
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What is acceptable and not acceptable in different cultures is no excuse to exploit the lack of human rights and labour laws. By moving manual labour from the U.S. to Asia, you are not experiencing aspects of culture, for one, culture by definition doesn't even include labour codes of conduct, that is a very modern, western norm. Secondly, I seriously doubt that you, along with other people who attempts to justify and trivialize this matter really understands China, or manual labour. If you haven't experienced living in third world countries or was a member at one time, you can not possibly relate to these people. The media and corporate-institutions we have in north america does a very good, and hard job of trivializing human resources exploitation by classifying it as business, or even turning it into a good thing for those being exploited. If you think about it, what good have slavery done to the african american population of today ? It just breeded hatred and racial segregation. These people being exploited will not look back 25 years 25 years in the future to say that manual labour from the grace of western gods was a good thing, even if they live to see that day.

If I have different norms and values as, say you, I certainly still want Apple to honor their code of conduct to me or to you. This applies to those people in Asia too. Exploitation is not okay in our culture, and I think it is more than fair to say, that it is not okay in their culture either, I know, because I lived there for half my life.
 
TimDaddy said:
Everytime a company improves a break area, installs air conditioning, puts in soft mats to stand on, builds a daycare center, aren't they taking a lower profit margin to improve working conditions? My company spends $60,000 a year paying people to pick up cigarette butts, and begging the smokers to be neater. Couldn't they save $60,000 a year, plus the cost of air conditioning and lighting the smoke shacks, by simply banning smoking on their property? Lots of good companies spend money on impovements that they don't have to make to benefit their employees. Are they doing this out of the kindness of their hearts? I doubt it. They are just hoping the the saying "A happy worker is a productive worker" is true. I guess they aren't actually taking a lower profit margin, they are investing some of their profit and hoping to get a good return via better workers.
Click to expand...

Some good points but it still comes back to companies need to get the most out of their employees for profits, I'm not saying they are evil I'm just stating how it can be.
 
Romanesq said:
Oh yes, it's arrogance. If one doesn't accept the cultural norms of China where the communists control all aspects of life and regulate people having children, how they worship, how they work and their conditions, then you aren't accepting their "cultural norms" and need to refrain from doing so.

This is an age old argument to justify anything and everything in regard to Human Rights.

Next, we'll hear about how it is the internal affairs of another country and we shouldn't interfere. That was the old Soviet stand by.

Funny how those thoughts are now trotted out here. :cool:
Click to expand...

Ignorance - To refrain or be destitute from knowlegde (Macquarie Dictionary).

Arrogance - Making unwarrantable claims or pretentions to superior importance or rights (Macquarie Dictionary).


Personnally I was leaning towards the ignorance factor.....
 
Hey -- I don't hang around here very much, but thought you all might be interested in a translation of a Chinese report on the iPod factories (with pictures). Having been in China for two years, I can say that nothing in these pictures looks really bad, or out of the ordinary. As for the dorms, keep in mind that Chinese university students at the top schools usually sleep 6-8 to a room on bunks.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm
 
It seems that there may be some evidence that Apple's "Huh? What, me?" attitude about the working conditions isn't quite right.

If it's true that Apple surveyed and approved the working conditions, as stated in this article, I'm sad to hear it.

That said, I also think it's totally possible for the Apple staff to get a tour of the facilities that make the place look great, interview "workers" who are all "happy and healthy" and leave thinking that their production facility is an island of justice in a sea of predatory anarchy...and still have this story crop up.
 
I am outraged by this and will not buy another Apple until this is rectified. Apple need to speak out about this and not use the silent defence as they are want to do. This is the kind of activity that a company MUST not be able to get away with. We need to understand what led Apple to believe that this was OK. It is worrying that the company that we have all loved so much is now making profits at any cost.

If I do not hear a decent explanation for this my next machine will be a Windows machine. It is one thing to break monopoly laws, it is another to abuse workers and take advantage of another country's poor labour laws. Morally outrageous.
 
jacobj said:
If I do not hear a decent explanation for this my next machine will be a Windows machine. It is one thing to break monopoly laws, it is another to abuse workers and take advantage of another country's poor labour laws. Morally outrageous.
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As if a Windows Machine is somehow not going to be the same story.
 
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