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Apple Factory Conditions
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Maxx Power said:
All valid points. And we've reached the point on those products after years of purchasing lower-priced products. So many industries have been lost that it's probable that they'll never return to the US. Someone else mentioned tools (e.g. wrenches, pliers, etc.) and I think that's a great example of people purchasing based on price not on quality.
wronski said:Not everything is about fuel anyhow, and they have a lot of it. China keeps making more and more of it's own products thanks to all they've learned from making products from other companies. Their economies will go up and they'll make their own Apple. Then all these company plans for cheaper labour will backfire and China will take over the world. Bwahaha.
Just about everything is about fuel, think about it, all plastic products, average food in the US is transported 1500 miles before it reaches your dinner plate, all organic chemicals synthesized in the lab, which means pesticides, household cleaners, etc. If there is no more storage of this kind of "free" substance, we would have to make things the old fashioned way.
And about how much is left, precisely December of 2004 we have officially past the half point of all petro on earth, that is including an optimistic speculation of another 25% undiscovered conventional oil (recoverable by current means). That literally means we've past the 75% mark for all currently stored oil. Did you know that (if i remember correctly), before the U.S started pumping its own oil, the oil reserves in the U.S. was approximately 72% of the entire planet's (back then). The U.S. never even envisioned of having to use oil from the Middle East, that surely backfired 20 years down the road.
China is growing but feeling the immense pressures of oil shortage, already, they are using all natural gas/propane based buses in large to middle sized cities, just due to the pollution alone. The taxi's are fitted with the same natural gas/propane tanks in conjunction with petro, which is a lot more expensive in China.
If you want a good read though, you can actually dig up all the independant assessment data and geological data used by the Bush Admin (and other admin's) and big oil companies to predict the oil lifespan.
blitzkrieg79 said:
The movie "Rollerball" was about a futuristic time when corporations ruled the world. For the US and Europe (especially in the US), the future is now. You say it is 'corporate greed', but it is our own greed that has allowed this to happen. I must shamefully admit that I am among you. Our insatiable need for material wealth allows us to excuse the flotsam aftermath which provides it. Attempting to burn Apple for existing in the same world as the rest of the providers is unbelievably hypocritical. I would expect that the 'end manufacturing facility' was probably single, or double sourced from the original company Apple contracted with. This would be consistent with common arrangements of this size.
If we are really interested in the exploitation of our fellow man, I suggest we all look within ourselves and ask what we are REALLY doing to make a better world. There are a lot of ways to do it and I am not promoting any one agenda. The truth is out there................
Apple insider has pictures. The uniforms remind me of a jail.
Anyways Apple is completely to blame though should deserve some (though its hard to say since Apple is my religioun...).
Anyways Apple is completely to blame though should deserve some (though its hard to say since Apple is my religioun...).
One question though? What is the cost of living in China or how about what is the current exchange rate from Dollars to what ever the chinese currency is (excuse my ignorance).
I know that is not considered living if they are really not able to see the outside world and all, I'm just curious if 50 dollars a week is like a minum wage their once converted back or if it really is like getting pennies.
This is what I mean "Keep in mind when you convert RMB into USD that while the salary may seem low, it is appropriate and comfortable for the cost of living in China. For example, you can buy a meal here for about RMB 5-10. Ordinary clothes cost between RMB 25-50.
Do not expect to earn a lot of money through teaching, but even an ordinary foreign teacher can live an comfortable life by local standards, and more importantly, enjoy the venerable hospitality of the Chinese people." qouted by Abroadchina.org
They went on to say "Some employers offer high pay but may not include some benefits, and may request longer hours, so don't use the wage number as only factor in making your decision."
"A 4-star hotel will set you back about £80 for the night in summer, though this obviously varies. A decent 3-star will be about £50, but you can get rooms for £20, or even less in the off-season" by China Britian Business Council.
Links are :http://www.cbbc.org/china_guide/currency.html
http://www.abroadchina.org/salary.asp
My whole point was a cause from my economics class. We were talking about outsourcing and not paying the right wages. We got to the discussion how some tabloids will come back with workers only getting $20 a day, but once converted to their currency, they made what would be equivalent to somone around the minumum wage in America ($5.15. (but as we all know you can't live off 5.15 unless your employer is giving you a place to stay)
(Sorry about spelling errors, I was in a rush.)
I know that is not considered living if they are really not able to see the outside world and all, I'm just curious if 50 dollars a week is like a minum wage their once converted back or if it really is like getting pennies.
This is what I mean "Keep in mind when you convert RMB into USD that while the salary may seem low, it is appropriate and comfortable for the cost of living in China. For example, you can buy a meal here for about RMB 5-10. Ordinary clothes cost between RMB 25-50.
Do not expect to earn a lot of money through teaching, but even an ordinary foreign teacher can live an comfortable life by local standards, and more importantly, enjoy the venerable hospitality of the Chinese people." qouted by Abroadchina.org
They went on to say "Some employers offer high pay but may not include some benefits, and may request longer hours, so don't use the wage number as only factor in making your decision."
"A 4-star hotel will set you back about £80 for the night in summer, though this obviously varies. A decent 3-star will be about £50, but you can get rooms for £20, or even less in the off-season" by China Britian Business Council.
Links are :http://www.cbbc.org/china_guide/currency.html
http://www.abroadchina.org/salary.asp
My whole point was a cause from my economics class. We were talking about outsourcing and not paying the right wages. We got to the discussion how some tabloids will come back with workers only getting $20 a day, but once converted to their currency, they made what would be equivalent to somone around the minumum wage in America ($5.15. (but as we all know you can't live off 5.15 unless your employer is giving you a place to stay)
(Sorry about spelling errors, I was in a rush.)
China, Laos, Camboja, Vietnan, and even here in Brazil, Bolivia, Peru... always the same crap. They treat people like ****, but this is not news, and everydody here knews it.
It is really strange that now people few unconfortable reading this news. This the reality of the country, and the average salary is compatible with the reality of the country.
YOu have a lot of workers begin for a job, with little education, flexible labor laws... This is called capitalism.
This is how it is in the third world. It will never change.
It is really strange that now people few unconfortable reading this news. This the reality of the country, and the average salary is compatible with the reality of the country.
YOu have a lot of workers begin for a job, with little education, flexible labor laws... This is called capitalism.
This is how it is in the third world. It will never change.
Typical news report with exaggeration, lack of social understanding and reality.
From what I know, I am sure there are aspects of worker rights that can and should be improved. But at the same time, these issues have to be put into perspective of the local social condition. China has a huge rural man/woman power that's under utilitzed, they typically travel to the industrial zones to seek for work. And these factories typically employ these so called migrant workers who would work, sleep and eat in the factory and then go back home with their savings at Chinese New Year and other major traditional holidays. Their savings are typically significantly better than what they can earn back at home. The girls typically come out to work and save for a few years and then would go back home to get married and end their migrant working life.
As for the communal living and security. Well, let's just say even with the level of security, unauthorized iPods still leak out of the factories from time to time.
Bottomline, we can not use exactly the same expectation to judge the arrangements in other countries and society. Things needs to be taken in perspective.
From what I know, I am sure there are aspects of worker rights that can and should be improved. But at the same time, these issues have to be put into perspective of the local social condition. China has a huge rural man/woman power that's under utilitzed, they typically travel to the industrial zones to seek for work. And these factories typically employ these so called migrant workers who would work, sleep and eat in the factory and then go back home with their savings at Chinese New Year and other major traditional holidays. Their savings are typically significantly better than what they can earn back at home. The girls typically come out to work and save for a few years and then would go back home to get married and end their migrant working life.
As for the communal living and security. Well, let's just say even with the level of security, unauthorized iPods still leak out of the factories from time to time.
Bottomline, we can not use exactly the same expectation to judge the arrangements in other countries and society. Things needs to be taken in perspective.
Economics unfortunately is not something that the majority of people will understand. Human compassion is. It comes natural to us. Economics...not so much. Too often, we as Americans tend to look at nations like China and blame the workers conditions on the wrong thing. Remember, we are talking about a nation where should you have more than a single child, the government will FORCE the woman to have an abortion. If she has the child in secret, more often than not, the child will be killed within the first year. We are NOT talking about a civilized nation. The fact that working conditions are crap is no suprise. And we wonder why people are dying to get to the USA to work manual labor jobs that no suburbian teenager would be caught dead doing. Not so long ago (a blink of an eye in the history book) America was treating its workers the same way. I believe Apple does owe it to its shareholders to make an effort to improve its conditions. However, to expect Apple to change the political/economic system of China/India is silly. Apple knows very well that it can not sustain profit at the iPod's current price if factories were moved to the US. For anyone who has ever owned a business, you know darn well that an employee making 12.50 an hour is really costing you ~30.00 an hour. Im not talking in benefits etc either. Workers comp, employeer taxes, etc. etc. You know, in CA workers comp for a factory position is over 100%!! That means that if you pay someone 10.00 an hour, you are paying another 10.00 an hour in workers comp insurance for that person! I am all for protection of workers, but the US is forcing itself into a very tight economic niche. Apple could not be competitive (or even survive!) by selling a 750 dollar US made iPod. Many of the things that we take for granted as everyday items are made possible by the hard work of other people. You want to know who is going to be the next rising star in the economy? Look for a country where people bust their hump for their daily bread...givem a hundred years or so...let the economy fall into place (it always does). Everyone wants to criticize, but no one wants to give up their stuff. And the corporations are the evil ones? No, no no...the corporations wouldnt be in business if there wasnt a plethera of people clamouring for their fix of cheap goods. You really want it to change, than you better be willing to do a job like coal mining, or factory work, etc. Because 85% of the industries that most of you work in wouldnt exist if there was not a difference in countries economies. You want to give them more...well, what are you gonna give up? Really not trying to sound preachy...just pointing out some basic economics that many people seem to forget.
topgunn said:
I absolutely refuse to believe that. Take one Japanese automaker for example. Honda. This company has demonsrated high levels of ethics in everything they do. They were first to reform their manufacturing processes to be more environmentally friendly and spend millions of research dollars to meet and exceed emissions guidelines on everything they make YEARS before required. Honda has been building and continues to build many of their cars in the United States. Not only are their cars assembled and in many cases designed here, but a large portion of the parts are made here including many of their engines and transmissions. They have even expanded and built more factories in the U.S. Currently the Civic, Accord, Odyssey, Pilot, Ridgeline, and a few Acura models (I'm sure I missed some) are all assembled in the U.S. with very high U.S. made parts content. Honda just announced in May they would be building a new factory and employing about 1,500 new people. Now, from what you are saying Honda should be losing money since the prices of raw materials are increasing and because American labor is so high. Well, actually they posted large gains in profit last quarter and are expanding their U.S. assembly presence.
Hyundai even just built a brand new state of the art factory in the U.S. Why would Hyundai do this if it's more profitable to just keep using their overseas plants?
The Toyota Camry has a U.S. parts content of 80% and is assembled in the U.S. Toyota has had amazing record growth in sales quarter over quarter. How can this be explained?
Granted these companies employ less people per factory than American automakers (better efficiency), but it is still better than seeing factories shut down and the equipment shipped to Mexico where people will get paid pennies on the dollar to operate it.
U.S. automakers are being forced to move overseas because they refuse to trim off unnecessary managerial bloat and increase their efficiency. Having good business ethics is not a bad thing. Capatalism is great, but what economists forget is that it only works properly in a world free of greed. This is not that world. This is why companies that play by the rules and follow a set of ethics and play the capatalist market fairly always seem to get ahead.
Edited for more elaboration.
i don't doubt the article is false. Things like this happens all the time. Only reason apples production is in China is due to cheaper labor, duh! With cheaper labor means cheaper pay for employees...harsh environments, MORE profit for Apple. No one is that stupid to believe they actually follow the "rules/guidelines" in the factories. Are there Apple factory QCs over in China at all times? I think not, does Apple care? I doubt it, until someone writes a report like this. Then, they just try to cover it up somehow and let everything cool off a bit. After that, it's game on with the mentality of "as long as production gets finished, anything goes"... People, this is the real world...no one survives by the "rules" on paper...
Just another one of those things you wish you didn't have to hear about, right?
It's a very tiresome thought exercise to imagine how it is we are supposed to fix problems like this. You have to convince people that want the most profit that cheap labor will end up costing people more in the future, you have to convince buyers to fork out a few more dollars to buy something they bought yesterday for less, you have to figure out what is "right" in terms of labor expectations and the global economy. Eh, it's no fun, and almost guaranteed to be depressing.
In this particular case all I am hoping for is that Apple makes it a point to make sure that whatever they say their policy is on labor is upheld. It is really the consumers responsibility to figure out what effect the products they buy are having on the world. Caveat emptor, no?
It's a very tiresome thought exercise to imagine how it is we are supposed to fix problems like this. You have to convince people that want the most profit that cheap labor will end up costing people more in the future, you have to convince buyers to fork out a few more dollars to buy something they bought yesterday for less, you have to figure out what is "right" in terms of labor expectations and the global economy. Eh, it's no fun, and almost guaranteed to be depressing.
In this particular case all I am hoping for is that Apple makes it a point to make sure that whatever they say their policy is on labor is upheld. It is really the consumers responsibility to figure out what effect the products they buy are having on the world. Caveat emptor, no?
fitzg2md said:
You are elaborating on my earlier post, although I certainly do not claim ownership of the theme.
I DO understand economics, manufacturing and activity based accounting. The assembly of an average electronic component should be >10% of the total cost (material accounting for ~90%). I will concede that exceptions exist. So, you make an item. $90 is material cost, regardless of locale. If it cost 1 hour to assemble it at $1/hour, as opposed to $15/hour, the final savings would be $14. The consumer sees $115, or $101 (minus markup). How many American consumers would take the position of "$115 keeps jobs in America and is a good thing", or the "it's all about me" approach?
We are a nation fully of greedy, self-indulgent consumers. Why pretend otherwise? That is who we are. So, let's drop the hypocrisy. As consumers (hate that word), most of us will abandon any loyalty to a proven product to save a perceived amount.
blitzkrieg79 said:
I cannot say that I totally agree with your statement.
For one, we should applaud Apple for having a supplier code of conduct. I will not comment on Apple's watch over this program however. It could be a few greedy (or LAZY) souls that are letting this happen, and it could be that the BOD doesn't even know about it. Or not, either way more info is needed.
Now talking about China. I will admit I am the first to stand up for American jobs, but... While it may seem like exploitation, and in many cases it will be, it is not clear cut. For these under-developed or developing nations things like this are necessary. The more money invested in that country, means more jobs, and a higher demand for labor. When the demand for labor is high enough, the laborers can demand a (albeit slightly) higher wage. That higher wage may take time to fold over and over. But what that leads to is more investment in an economy as a whole, which leads to better education, etc.
Now you say it wouldn't cost much money to pay higher wages --- but in the end it DOES. And another poster was correct, it is a company's duty to please the stockholder. One of the basic things I learned in biz school is "a company is in business to make money." That is a given. What happens in the US is that we DEMAND the lowest prices. Despite a following of Anti-Walmart folks, there are still enough Americans who are looking for the lowest price to make it viable. Do I look for the lowest price when shopping for an iPod, of course! Does it make me a bad person? No. Here is another example: How many times have you told a perspective Mac buyer not to purchase RAM from Apple? Reason=price!
I am of the personal belief that investing in your community is a good thing. I personally shop at local hardware stores, local non-chain restaurants, etc in the town of 17,000 in which I live. Do a pay a little more, yes I do, but I don't mind. But I also think it is personally "fair" to then go out and look for the best deal on a Macbook when they aren't sold locally.
I guess the overall "point" of this rant is that yes, bad things happen, to good people, and peope are always going to be taken advantage of. However, any kind of investment usually means a better fate when it eventually comes down to it, only time will tell. Look at Iraq: People bust Bush's chops because Iraq doesn't operate like the US. I don't know how long it has been since history class, but I do remember they said it took longer than 3 years to develop the US into what it is. Heck, look at 50 years ago and racism. Everything changes, it just takes time.
Just to let you guys the know, the average working wage in China is about $120 U.S a month. So moral outrage on how they pay the workers should be in view with what the market in the country will bear.
macgeek2005 said:
$50USD PER MONTH???? What??????? Is that what people usually get paid in china??????
Yes. Time to wake up. And I'm pretty sure it isn't the worst salary there. This is how the world runs now. China is a fast growing market, but a big part of this growth comes from workers that can be compared to slaves.
How much do illegal immigrants get paid for a job in US??
topgunn said:
no, greed is the right word...what you just said is that greed is endemic in capitalist production. systematic greed doesn't really make me feel better than the greed of one particular company.
on the other hand, i get frustrated when people enamored with macs think that apple is somehow different from any other tech company when it comes to the basic building blocks of corporate structure. to put it another way, nike always takes the PR hit but adidas has factories right next door...the logic of globalized marketplaces (which extend directly from historical colonial expansion) has always been to transfer wealth and resources from poorer regions of the world to richer ones. the term 'free market' is a misnomer...it always been about who gets to set the rules. because there are rules...and if apple wants to sell electronics worldwide they play by them.
it sucks. and if an alternative to capitalism meant no ipods, i would still be all for it.
fitzg2md said:
Speak for yourself, not somewhere you know nothing about other than what western propaganda has provided you. That was a bunch of top grade, curb-side, sun-baked dog *****. There are no forced abortions, the government gives incentives to let you have only 1 off-spring, and if you exceed that limit, they will take the deductive incentives away. Having lived there, trust me, I know. No one there wants to have more than 1 child, it is prohibitively costly to keep. Not to mention in the upbringing and parenting process in China, the parent-child interaction is a lot more labour intensive in China than it is here. You seem to forget that a lot of parents in North America don't care nearly as much about their off-spring than people do in Asia, cultural differences.
And other countries by your judgement of being "uncivilized" deserves poor treatment ? Is that why we used black people for slavery ? Is that why Hitler killed all those Jews, and all the Indians in North America got killed ? And the Japanese invasion of China ? And the Opium War ....
That is fascism. Please don't spread fascism on the internet.
Apple is an excellent lightening rod for this very hot topic. The popularity of the ipod (and huge market share) makes it a great target. With success comes scrutiny, responsibility, and a lot of criticism.