Apple Files Appeal in Epic Games Lawsuit, Asks to Delay App Store Changes

[Krizoitz]

I don't think Apple will successfully appeal that part of the Epic vs Apple trial judgement. The fact that you can sign up for some VoD providers like Netflix on their web site and download the related app from the store shows they are already doing it.

You can do the same for Epics V-Bucks already. Nothing prevents developers from offering payment options outside the App Store already. They just can’t link to it in their apps, Netflix can’t either. That may soon change to some extent thanks to Apples agreement with the Japan Trade Commission, but it’s never been about what Apple CAN do, it’s about forcing them to do things they don’t want to.

 

[Krizoitz]

If the App Store is in a state where changes can lead to irreparable harm to consumers then Apple has definitely abused its position and needs regulating.

That makes absolutely zero sense.
Apple is saying IF they are forced to change BY regulation it will harm customers. How does that mean they have abused their position, when the harm hasn’t occurred now but would in the future if regulation forced a change? You are completely backwards on this…

 

[Krizoitz]

Apple should be forced to do changes in the way how they operate App Store.

Why? Just because you say so?

App Store should be separated from Apple and they Apple should be treated as just another developer.

Again why? Apple (and others) have proven over and over that tight integration between hardware and software can offer users significant advantages. I and MANY others like me choose iOS precisely BECAUSE of these advantages.
And where do you draw the line? Can Apple include any software with its hardware? Or does the iPhone come completely blank and customers have to figure out how to install everything. No App Store. No OS. NOTHING. That’s the logical conclusion of your argument after all.

All mega corps should be broken down. All of them are abusing due to their position

All of them? Really? 😆 No hyperbole there 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Wildkraut]

Me developer, not going to become upset, go ahead implement… 🤣 They better put a survey of developers that would become upset and not upset on the table…

 

[Xtir]

Heh. Not surprising at all.
I’d be actually surprised if somehow apple caves in without cannibalising their own culture, tradition and pride.

Culture and tradition of what? Ripping off? Monopolizing everything on your property? Why do you think apple (until now) haven’t applied the same strategy for your Mac? Would you still buy one?

 

[mariusignorello]

Apple are different in that they look out for us, they protect our privacy, they keep us safe with the App Store, they deliver security updates to every supported device on day one.

Now if you are referring to the likes of Google and Facebook as giant mega corps that need breaking up, I'd absolutely agree with you.

It’s not wise to give Apple the title of world savior. That didn’t bode well with the kiddie porn scanning thing and it went straight to their head.

 

[mariusignorello]

Why? Just because you say so?


Again why? Apple (and others) have proven over and over that tight integration between hardware and software can offer users significant advantages. I and MANY others like me choose iOS precisely BECAUSE of these advantages.
And where do you draw the line? Can Apple include any software with its hardware? Or does the iPhone come completely blank and customers have to figure out how to install everything. No App Store. No OS. NOTHING. That’s the logical conclusion of your argument after all.


All of them? Really? 😆 No hyperbole there 🤣🤣🤣

That point about Apple shipping the phone blank actually could work. They launched a MDM-specific feature that allows one single app to be automatically installed upon enrollment into a device management server in conjunction with Automated Enrollment.

What all that means is they could repurpose those features to install the App Store upon first boot of the new iPhone if the customer requested it at the time of purchase, similar to how you can custom build a Mac with ram, storage, etc. It just checks the serial number against the activation database and downloads the cloud configuration with the app manifest. From there, iOS could be offered as a “product” like macOS is listed in the Mac App Store. The groundwork has already been done, and if push comes to shove, they just might do it. I bet they’ve already played with it internally.

 

[Abazigal]

Culture and tradition of what? Ripping off? Monopolizing everything on your property? Why do you think apple (until now) haven’t applied the same strategy for your Mac? Would you still buy one?

I wouldn't be opposed to having the equivalent of an iOS App Store model for macOS as well, but I think the train has long left that station. With iOS, Apple had the luxury of being able to start off on a clean slate, which is why most developers see a walled garden as the norm. With macOS, the default is being able to download an app from anywhere, so it would not be feasible to close off that ecosystem if you aren't certain of getting most developers on board.

For me, it would be nice to be able to keep track of all my purchases, manage all my updates, and keep track of my subscriptions in one place. I wouldn't have to manually visit a website in order to download an app, or supply my credit card details, amongst other small annoyances that come with a conventional desktop OS.

Problem is - what's good for me as the end user may not necessarily be good for the developer, who amongst other things has to pay a cut to Apple. With iOS, Apple holds the cards, because that's where the money is. It's the opposite for the Mac, where Apple needs developers more than the other way around.

It’s not wise to give Apple the title of world savior. That didn’t bode well with the kiddie porn scanning thing.

I am not against such a move, honestly.

 

[svish]

So the battle is likely to continue for a long time

 

[bousozoku]

Instead of fighting progress, Apple should be embracing it. They won the court battle. They could just accept outside links to payment systems for most cases because governments all over the world are going to head in that direction.

 

[cyanite]

and wallah they did

Ah, the intricacies of the French language . Voilà!

You can do the same for Epics V-Bucks already. Nothing prevents developers from offering payment options outside the App Store already. They just can’t link to it in their apps

No, only certain categories of apps are allowed to that, i.e. “viewer apps” such as Netflix.

 

[haydn!]

You're talking about a dispute between Apple and a developer. None of that gives Apple the right to violate their customers' legal rights in retaliation.

But where would Apple be violating customers legal rights? If a app wants to direct a user to a stand-alone website outside the app for the user to make payment, bypassing any Apple infrastructure or system, Apple adding a notification to point that out would be simply factual would it not?

Or are you attempting to suggest Apple is responsible for all payments made on its device, even those in the browser? Because I couldn’t see that argument holding much water in any court room.

If you drive a Ford to Walmart, and when paying for your shopping you accidentally get charged for two bottles of milk instead of one. Is your “dispute” with Walmart or the manufacturer of the car that drove you there?

 

[AppliedMicro]

No, only certain categories of apps are allowed to that, i.e. “viewer apps” such as Netflix.

A tailor-made rule and concession for the few big media companies that actually do have some leverage over Apple.

Many customers do want to have an App-like experience when consuming media content such as books, movies and music. And the media companies want to have a way to enforce DRM or technical measures to prevent copying or recording of their content. They'd rather leave and support Android than give that up.

Apple knows that it would steer people towards purchasing less iPhones and iPads and more competitor (Android) products if the most popular streaming and eBook reading services weren't available on their platform. That is IMO why they've made that concession for "viewer apps".

 

[threesixty360]

it's funny how all this moaning would stop if people who dont like the "walled garden" just didnt buy the iphone. And developers who didnt like the terms and conditions just cancelled their contracts and stopped making software on the platform. Is that not democracy? Freedom of choice?

I dont know of any goverment service that mandates the use of an iOS product. So its not some neccessary tool for life.

And just to labour the point, it's not like Apple pulled a fast one and changed the rules half way through developers signing these contracts. They were always there.

Let the market decide right? If people like things they stay and if people dont they die.
right? People didnt like Blackberry and Nokia so they died. Simple.

 

[dumastudetto]

It’s not wise to give Apple the title of world savior. That didn’t bode well with the kiddie porn scanning thing and it went straight to their head.

Apple tried to engineer a complex privacy-focused solution to a very real problem that cannot be ignored. Hopefully they'll backtrack and decide just scan from the cloud for CSAM, like everyone else already does, as that feels far less invasive.

 

[Natrium]

Apple appeals the decision, like I predicted on this forum before.

The ruling is a major blow to Apple’s App Store business model, which is entirely based on restricting developers and consumers to Apple’s In-App Purchasing system and charging commission for every purchase.

For those that keep saying Apple is not harmed by the ruling, here is a quote by Apple themselves:

Absent a stay, Apple would be forced to permit developers to engage in conduct that will disrupt Apple’s App Store lawful business model.

 

[Michael Scrip]

it's not like Apple pulled a fast one and changed the rules halfway through developers signing these contracts. They were always there.

Exactly.

13 years and a million apps later... developers should know the rules.

Anyway... I'm interested to see what actually comes from all these lawsuits and investigations. I hope every party gets what they want. Though I feel some will still be upset about something.

 

[bgalakazam]

"Sell my items in your store and don't charge me rent, security and commissions. Thank you for generating income for me without any costs to me."

 

[Michael Scrip]

Apple appeals the decision, like I predicted on this forum before. The ruling is a major blow to Apple’s App Store business model, which is entirely based on restricting developers and consumers to Apple’s In-App Purchasing system and charging commission for every purchase.

If I understand the ruling correctly... Apple can still charge a commission fee.

So if a developer wants to use a third-party payment processor... they'll get their money from Stripe or PayPal or whatever... and then they'll have to turn around and send money back to Apple for their commission. Right? How else will Apple collect their commission?

But when a developer sells an app or IAP through the App Store under the current rules... Apple subtracts the payment fee *and* the commission fee all at once. And the money the developer gets is all theirs. There are no extra steps.

I'm curious to see how the new method will work in practice. And I wonder how many small developers won't want to deal with all the extra bookkeeping and accounting and just stick with the App Store for simplicity.

If you're a large developer... I wonder what the commission fee will be. It won't be 30%... but it certainly won't be 0%

 

[Natrium]

If I understand the ruling correctly... Apple can still charge a commission fee.

So if a developer wants to use a third-party payment processor... they'll get their money from Stripe or PayPal or whatever... and then they'll have to turn around and send money back to Apple for their commission. Right? How else will Apple collect their commission?

But when a developer sells an app or IAP through the App Store under the current rules... Apple subtracts the payment fee *and* the commission fee all at once. And the money the developer gets is all theirs. There are no extra steps.

I'm curious to see how the new method will work in practice. And I wonder how many small developers won't want to deal with all the extra bookkeeping and accounting and just stick with the App Store for simplicity.

If you're a large developer... I wonder what the commission fee will be. It won't be 30%... but it certainly won't be 0%

Even if Apple can still charge commission, on purchases made outside apps, it is going to be much more difficult to collect it and they won’t be able to charge 30% because that would render the injunction useless. Thus, the ruling still harms Apple’s business model, as Apple confirmed themselves in this motion to stay the injunction (quote above).

 

[Wildkraut]

This is the case that never ends,
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend,
Some people started suing it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue suing it forever just because...

🤣

It will end soon, give it a year, in this case they won’t be able to appeal:

Digital Markets Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AppliedMicro]

I dont know of any goverment service that mandates the use of an iOS product. So its not some neccessary tool for life.

While it's not strictly mandated, it is becoming increasingly impractical living without a smartphone. An de facto there's only two or three different brands of operating systems available - when purchasing a phone and when choosing a platform to download apps.

You can always make the argument that it's not government-mandated to have a phone number, bank account/payment card, electricity or a car - or that you can very well live without much modern technology like the Amish.

That doesn't mean it should be basis for public policy.

Let the market decide right? If people like things they stay and if people dont they die.

Yeah, why not let the market decide about in-app purchase methods?

If people like Apple's In-App Purchasing system, they stay.
And if they don't, someone else will process these transactions.

 

[KindJamz]

Not everyone want a giant mega corp to have total control of his/her life and determine what decision he/she should make.

In fact, people have been calling out breaking up these mega corps because they are way too powerful.

Unless you shill for apple and just want to fall in line and follow apple. Scary and sad.

 

[kiv.atso]

I don’t care. The number of 3rd party apps I depend on is practically zero.

I stopped downloading apps with IAP because many times developers changed business model to subscription and existing IAP purchases could not be restored anymore.

Close App Store and move all 3rd party apps to web browser. Problem solved.

 

[Natrium]

Unless you shill for apple and just want to fall in line and follow apple. Scary and sad.

Yes. It wouldn’t surprise me if many of the people defending Apple’s commission are at the same upset about the government’s sales tax (which by the way is much lower than Apple’s commission), even though the latter is used for the public good and the former ends up in Apple’s already deeply filled pockets.