Apple Files Legal Challenge Against EU Law as Sideloading Requirement Looms

[bsolar]

It gets better. Article 14 of the German constitution states that: Property is a responsibility. It's use shall at the same time benefit the common good. 🇩🇪

You'll never be able to own something to a degree that you're allowed to use it against the public interest of everybody else. Go figure!

There is actually a similar concept in Protocol 1 of the European Convention of Human Rights, where the right to enjoy property is balanced against the general interest:

ARTICLE 1
Protection of property

Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.

The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That’s why innovation is dead in the EU. Big tech was allowed to grow because it wasn’t hampered by regulations that prevented innovation.

Sigh, who is designing the same software every American company uses to flourish? EU companies.

Who designs the technology to even make modern processors? EU companies.

Who killed the entire American industry of processor manufacturing? EU companies.

And who helped kill the American industry? The U.S. government because they played favourites while EU did the opposite.

 

[Wildkraut]

That’s why innovation is dead in the EU. Big tech was allowed to grow because it wasn’t hampered by regulations that prevented innovation.

LOL, Innovation is not dead in the EU, the US often build stuff with help of EU innovations.

The thing is, we innovate in other areas than the US, we are strong at medicine, machines, tools, automation of production chains, networking, etc..

Companies like KUKA, ARM, ASML all have EU roots.
But yes, we were often stupid, e.g. for allowing the Chinese to buy e.g. KUKA

In the automotive area we lead for many decades, now it's the Chinese turn, because the EU and the US were stupid to allow companies to manufacture in China, and while doing it - they copied and improved. The Chinese are clever, and they see copying like a appreciation of that product. China will flood the world with state-subsidized cheaper cars with poor support, and that's why the US and the EU needs a regulation for that area.

If you look at the AI sector, sure OpenAI/ChatGPT (US) went around the world, fancy funny AI.
While the EU is mainly researching and developing AI stuff in other areas, like e.g. medicine.
The top mRNA Covid vaccines came all from EU.

So just because this is mainly a computer related forum don't underestimate the innovation power of the EU in other areas. I would go so far and say that these other areas are far more important to care about than any fancy lifestyle gadget made by Apple.

The US and the EU have different goals and innovation areas.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

LOL, Innovation is not dead in the EU, the US often build stuff with help of EU innovations.

The thing is, we innovate in other areas than the US, we are strong at medicine, machines, tools, automation of production chains, networking, etc..

Companies like KUKA, ARM, ASML all have EU roots.
But yes, we were often stupid, e.g. for allowing the Chinese to buy e.g. KUKA

In the automotive area we lead for many decades, now it's the Chinese turn, because the EU and the US were stupid to allow companies to manufacture in China, and while doing it - they copied and improved. The Chinese are clever, and they see copying like a appreciation of that product. China will flood the world with state-subsidized cheaper cars with poor support, and that's why the US and the EU needs a regulation for that area.

If you look at the AI sector, sure OpenAI/ChatGPT (US) went around the world, fancy funny AI.
While the EU is mainly researching and developing AI stuff in other areas, like e.g. medicine.
The top mRNA Coved vaccines came all from EU.

So just because this is mainly a computer related forum don't underestimate the innovation power of the EU in other areas. I would go so far and say that these other areas are far more important to care about than any fancy lifestyle gadget made by Apple.

The US and the EU have different goals and innovation areas.

Indeed without the necessary technological possibilities you can scream all you want about lifestyle gadgets that can’t and won’t exist anyway.

If ASML tomorrow refuses to sell their product to AMD/Intel/Nvidia then they would all collapse because the last 10-20years of processors wouldn’t have been possible to manufacture.

If ASML tomorrow refused to allow Apple to use their IP to have their M1 chips, A16 chips etc then apple would collapse as a company immediately because none of their chips would be possible to be manufactured.

If Americans wants Apple to pull out, Wel I think ASML and ASP should pullout from apple and se what happens 😂.

Let’s see who suffers the most. Europeans not being able to buy some Apple products, or Apple being unable to sell any products at all or manage their internal company structure.

 

[Gudi]

In the automotive area we lead for many decades, now it's the Chinese turn, ...

Don't repeat this propaganda nonsense! China is subsidizing junk for the graveyard.

OpenAI/ChatGPT (US) went around the world, fancy funny AI.

AI is the new Bitcoin. Just another get-rich-quick scheme without a real use case.

So just because this is mainly a computer related forum don't underestimate the innovation power of the EU in other areas.

He has no idea about his own country, let alone other countries. Like a stereotypical American he is filling in the blanks with assumptions. That's the only way he can make sense of the world. If some Hollywood movies weren't based on true events, he wouldn't know anything. That's the sad reality of being raised and (mis-)informed by US television.

I would go so far and say that these other areas are far more important to care about than any fancy lifestyle gadget made by Apple. The US and the EU have different goals and innovation areas.

We're actually allies and dependent on each other. No industrial country would be this rich without trade and cooperation with other industrial countries. The idea of winners and losers of competition is largely false. For the most part we're all benefiting from the division of labor and specialization on those parts of the economy, where we can contribute and innovate the most.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Let’s play a game. Who will buckle first.

• Apple pulls out of EU
  • Untill EU remove the DMA or just grants American companies an exemption etc

VS

• ASML and SAPputs RPM contracts that their IP isn’t allowed to be use for Apple.
  • Untill Apple follows the DMA and returns to the EU market.

 

[Shirasaki]

They are arguing against the rules. Any way they can. It is a democracy in the EU still. I hope Apple wins it case. But, when a union of countries wants to create rules that make doing business unnecessarily difficult. I say, it's time to go. There are other countries that aren't so difficult to deal with.

If they can figure out how to work within the rules and still make a buck. As a shareholder, I'm ok with it. As a customer, I'm perfectly fine with them walking away from the EU. I'm sure Apple would rather stay and do what they do. But, if push keeps coming to shove. Then, cut the losses. There is only really one other alternative to an iPhone. So let them have it. It's more popular there anyway. And if someone in the EU really wants an iPhone. They will find ways to have it shipped to them. Or when they travel, pick one up in a neighboring non EU country. It will probably cost less outside the EU too.

Every business wants to make money. And as long as that is reasonably possible, they will continue to operate in the EU. But, that can only go so far. If it becomes untenable, then they will leave. And again, as my opinion on the matter. I'd prefer it if they left. I think the rules go too far. It would be a hit to the bottom line. But, there are other countries to focus these efforts to.

Fair.
Only Time will tell.
Wonder what will happen if US also decides to push sideloading, cause Apple cannot reasonably quit US market.

 

[Shirasaki]

AI is the new Bitcoin. Just another get-rich-quick scheme without a real use case.

This comment will age like fine milk.

 

[Wildkraut]

Don't repeat this propaganda nonsense! China is subsidizing junk for the graveyard.

AI is the new Bitcoin. Just another get-rich-quick scheme without a real use case.

He has no idea about his own country, let alone other countries. Like a stereotypical American he is filling in the blanks with assumptions. That's the only way he can make sense of the world. If some Hollywood movies weren't based on true events, he wouldn't know anything. That's the sad reality of being raised and (mis-)informed by US television.

We're actually allies and dependent on each other. No industrial country would be this rich without trade and cooperation with other industrial countries. The idea of winners and losers of competition is largely false. For the most part we're all benefiting from the division of labor and specialization on those parts of the economy, where we can contribute and innovate the most.

Yep,well…

#Automobile Industry
Regarding the junk i totally agree, but there are different kind of CN junk, that vid shows the extreme.
If the EU and the US allows them to flood the market without having affordable alternatives, they will flood successfully.

Simply because currently you have to put 50k€ for somewhat acceptable EV on the table, and they‘re also build to die in max. 7-8 years with a battery failure, which is equal to total loss. That’s a sales price with maintenance costs the mass can’t afford these days anymore, specially with the current high interests for credits.

Then comes the Chinese with an inferior subsidized „junk“ for 15k€-20k€, well they are junk in term of features and hardware and software hiccups, but they drive from A-B and will probably get the safety approvals to drive on our roads, and on top comes there is no alternative for the mass at this price range.

We‘ll see, but non-Chinese EVs won’t mass succeed with mainly 50k€ cars where e.g. swapping the battery cost 20k€, they have to get down to 15k-25k€ sales.


Xiaomi is already around the corner.
In my opinion the car industry will become like the mobile phone industry, and there are plenty of people using 150€ mobile phones.

#AI
AI has real use-cases already, e.g. for early cancer diagnosis.
There aren’t many “serious“ use-cases yet, most current use-cases are in the artistic and search area.
But yes it’s mainly a hype now, every company it trying to implement nonsense AI, just to be able to say, „Look, we have AI, too!“.

The same we had with „Cloud and SaaS“ which was just a new fancy buzzword for mainly file serving and few other services on top.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Yep,well…


#AI
AI has real use-cases already, e.g. for early cancer diagnosis.
There aren’t many “serious“ use-cases yet, most current use-cases are in the artistic and search area.
But yes it’s mainly a hype now, every company it trying to implement nonsense AI, just to be able to say, „Look, we have AI, too!“.

actually AI have enormous use case in research and analytics and serious use cases.

Ai for example is the reason why you can highlight text in pictures and crop out people. It has many advantages in hidden functions as wel.

 

[4odomi]

Apple today filed a legal challenge against the European Union's Digital Markets Act ahead of the impending requirement to enable app sideloading on its devices (via Reuters).

The Digital Markets Act (DMA), which came into effect on November 1, 2022, requires "gatekeeper" companies to open up their services and platforms to other companies and developers. The DMA will have a significant impact on Apple's platforms and it could result in the company being forced to make major changes to the ‌App Store‌, Messages, FaceTime, Siri, and more. For example, Apple will be obliged to enable users to "sideload" apps from outside the App Store. The company appears to have already put preparations in place to acquiesce to this demand in early 2024.

Apple's new legal case takes issue with specific decisions taken by the European Commission under the DMA, but the exact details of the challenge have not yet been publicized. The case is expected to include an argument against the App Store being included on the EU's list of gatekeeper platforms, which requires app sideloading to be an option to allow users to avoid the App Store if they wish. In a statement at the time, Apple told Bloomberg, "We remain very concerned about the privacy and data security risks the DMA poses for our users." Meta and TikTok have filed similar appeals disputing the European Commission's inclusion of their services.

Article Link: Apple Files Legal Challenge Against EU Law as Sideloading Requirement Looms

Wasting their time and money, the European court exists to do the EU Commission's bidding, that's just a fact 😏

 

[4odomi]

I prefer the Apple that gets people to buy its products through innovation.

Not the one that guards every cent that it can squeeze out of them.

I prefer not to have side loading, one of the biggest reasons I buy the iPhone is because it has no side loading, which makes it a lot more secure!

 

[4odomi]

just a reminder to everyone here, the Mac, which I assume many of us love, allows for Apps to be downloaded from the App Store, or from online with verification for security, but we are able to disable the verification. I feel very safe using my Mac. iPhone has to open up. I assume it will be similar to the Mac and hopefully everything will be OK or even better

Because of side loading many apps are not available through the Mac App Store, which is why I avoid side loading, not sure from what perspective you feel very secure with that?

 

[4odomi]

Precisely! This monopoly behaviour has to go. Let people decide but give them the option.

Just like Steve Jobs always said - 'ask them'

I'm on EU side here. Doesn't mean I will use apps outside Appstore myself but I feel this will give people options. Those that want to tinker will be able to and those that want to feel the 'blanket of security' Apple provides will be also happy. Win win

Only theoretically, many developers will not make their apps available in App Store, in fact what happens when none of them will?
Where's you security blanket then?
Not many people have thought this through, certainly not the EU 😡

 

[4odomi]

Wow: FOUR favorable posts about side loading before the "Apple is always right" crowd shows up with pitchforks, torches & battering rams. Impressive to see consumers thinking like consumers! Way to go people.

#2 says it all. Even the most passionate of fans has probably purchased at least ONE app for their Mac direct from the maker of that app or through third parties. And their lives have not been destroyed, their money stolen, their identity lifted, their Mac suffering infections/trojans beyond all possible repair, etc. No problem for anyone who uses their brain to choose their source of apps wisely.

And anyone who is overwhelmed with security worries still has the OPTION of getting Mac apps from Apple's Mac App Store... as would be the case here for iDevice apps. So if Apple's App Store is best, let it win the competition with others... exactly like the Mac App Store competes with getting Mac apps direct from the makers and via third party store offers. Let the consumers decide where to get a given app vs. a lone, single source with lucrative for-profit motivations above all else.

Or we know from personal experience, the EU is always wrong!
I for one don't want side loading and I don't side load for my Mac even if it means I can't always have what I want, (Vivid springs to mind) because many of the apps aren't in the Mac Store and that's exactly what will happen with the iPhone, so not exactly a choice 😡
All the EU is doing is destroying the App Store and the security it brings for the users!

 

[Wildkraut]

Because od side loading many apps are not available through the Mac App Store, which is why I avoid side loading, not sure from what perspective you feel very secure with that?

I'm very happy to not be forced to use the Mac AppStore or MSStore on PC's.

Without an enforced AppStore i can...

Install Tools like brew.sh
Buy and perform Software Upgrades.
Install older Software Versions to be compatible with existing development pipelines
Install Plugins for Software
Install Drivers or alternative Drivers
Install Development Versions of unreleased Software
Install OpenSource Software
etc.

Didn't have a single security issue on any of my hardware all these years.

Once a year I even install malware on purpose to test my infrastructure and see if my honey pot devices are still working as intended.

Computers does not only exist to make selfies and post on social platforms.

 

[4odomi]

Apple will just embarrass itself. EU will prevail as it has with usb c, internet explorer and any other major similar case. In Europe we don’t like monopolies

The only reason the EU prevails is because their courts a bought and paid for 😏

 

[4odomi]

LOL, see the monopolist is moaning.

Your AppStore your rules, our Country our rules, but our rules are over yours.
If you don't like it, you know where the door is, Apple.

The EU is not a country, to be factual, not yet at least!

 

[4odomi]

Try telling that to the millions of Mac and Windows users! Bwaha!

View attachment 2313645

When I used Windows it was full of viruses and it crashed a lot!
Now for 5 years no such problems on a Mac, but no side loading either!

 

[4odomi]

Oh honey you do not want to go there. That is a fight you will lose

Apple’s tightly controlled App Store is teeming with scams

Apple claims its App Store is carefully curated so that only the best apps get through. The truth is, the App Store is littered with scams and "fleeceware," which uses fake user ratings to trick customers into paying for something they don't want.

www.washingtonpost.com

ChatGPT Scams Are Infiltrating the App Store and Google Play

An explosion of interest in OpenAI’s sophisticated chatbot means a proliferation of “fleeceware” apps that trick users with sneaky in-app subscriptions.

www.wired.com

Scam macOS apps abuse lacking security in the Mac App Store

An examination of a scam app for macOS made by a bogus developer impersonating legitimate accounts reveals how the Mac App Store review system can be manipulated.

appleinsider.com

Online Security Coverage | Tom's Guide

The latest Online Security news, comment, reviews and features from the experts at Tom's Guide

www.tomsguide.com

Pig-butchering scam apps sneak into Apple’s App Store and Google Play

In online confidence scams, appearance is everything—and app stores can help with that.

arstechnica.com

1) Do you believe every article you read? Really? Or only when it suits your personal narrative?
2) Apple have never claimed the App Store is 100% secure

 

[4odomi]

I'd like to know where in that spreadsheet it stated
1) Enable Crash detection
2) Enable SOS via Satellite
3) Create Vision Pro
4) Create M# chips
5) Make a pretty good messaging app that pisses off Google. 😆

Unrivalled Face ID
Apple Watch
Unrivalled Integration between devises
Best Camera system with 24 mega Pixel Photos as Standard
Automatic Portrait Mode
We could go on.......

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I prefer not to have side loading, one of the biggest reasons I buy the iPhone is because it has no side loading, which makes it a lot more secure!

… it already exists so I guess you should stop using it then 😂

Because of side loading many apps are not available through the Mac App Store, which is why I avoid side loading, not sure from what perspective you feel very secure with that?

Only theoretically, many developers will not make their apps available in App Store, in fact what happens when none of them will?
Where's you security blanket then?
Not many people have thought this through, certainly not the EU 😡

Or we know from personal experience, the EU is always wrong!
I for one don't want side loading and I don't side load for my Mac even if it means I can't always have what I want, (Vivid springs to mind) because many of the apps aren't in the Mac Store and that's exactly what will happen with the iPhone, so not exactly a choice 😡
All the EU is doing is destroying the App Store and the security it brings for the users!

Haha, apps/ games doesn’t want to exist on the Macappstore because it’s terrible for business, users and services. And if only the Macappstore was an option they would rather abandon it 😂

steam have 80% of Mac games on them.
You know what you should do if a developer doesn’t publish it in the store? Cry me a river and tell Apple how to make the store better.

 

[Samplasion]

I don't side load for my Mac even if it means I can't always have what I want

You're intentionally limiting your experience and you want us to do the same. Boy am I glad you don't write the rules.

in fact what happens when none of them will?

That won't happen (see: Mac App Store) but if that were to happen then Apple would have to adapt to the market and not vice versa

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Unrivalled Face ID
Apple Watch
Unrivalled Integration between devises
Best Camera system with 24 mega Pixel Photos as Standard
Automatic Portrait Mode
We could go on.......

And tell me where on the list is the AppStore? Easily the worst service Apple ever had the displeasure to offer users.

They should have just employed Valve to do it for them instead.

 

[Gudi]

#AI
AI has real use-cases already, e.g. for early cancer diagnosis.

Yeah, they tried that for skin cancer. The AI model learned that when there is a ruler on the photo, it’s more likely skin cancer. Very smart indeed. 📐