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Apple Fined $1.2 Million in Italy Over Warranty Disclosure Issues

kurosov said:
I usually bring a dictaphone and start recording a conversation if it gets heated on their side.
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Trouble with that trick in the US is that it is illegal in most states, if not on the Federal level, to record someone without their permission. So the moment you pull out the recorder the other side will end the conversation and tell you to leave and you can't really do anything. And if you keep the recorder in your pocket the lawyers will have it tossed as an illegally made recording and possibly have you charged.
 
Gnasher was right on the money as far as the law is concerned and it is embarrassing to see people who clearly don't know better here voting down his posts.
 
theelysium said:
That's such BS I worked for Apple Care for 3 years and Apple fully discloses all limited and extended warranties. Italy is a bunch a mamby pamby liars.
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I have to call you on that one because the issue was actually stated more in regards to the sales staff at the stores not being clear about the state of the game. They were, it was alleged, pushing Apple Care without mentioning that some of the same concerns are covered for more than a year under law. And given that I've heard staff in stores in the US not even clearly explaining what Apple Care is, I can believe that staff might not be clear on similar issues. Sometimes out of laziness sometimes out of lack of knowledge. Apple should be making sure that their staff knows and explains everything clearly and that's very likely why they got the slap on the wrist with the little fine.

Yes it's on the website for all to read but if the Staff are going to be talking about it they need to be correct and clear in what they are saying to the customers.
 
neiltc13 said:
Agreed. I think it is insulting that the author thinks his audience does not know how much €900,000 is.
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Very poor reporting by Eric. The headline should be 900K euro as Italian regulators obviously can't fine in dollar amounts If he really feels the need to translate that into Freedom units he can have a rough dollar exchange rate in the piece.
 
charlituna said:
Trouble with that trick in the US is that it is illegal in most states, if not on the Federal level, to record someone without their permission. So the moment you pull out the recorder the other side will end the conversation and tell you to leave and you can't really do anything. And if you keep the recorder in your pocket the lawyers will have it tossed as an illegally made recording and possibly have you charged.
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Well, the discussion isn't about the US, anyway. But you are confusing government law like the Constitution and individual law. It is not illegal to record your own conversation in most states, esp if in public, where it would be presumed that someone could overhear you, anyway. Recording someone else's conversation would be a problem.

I should note, I'm talking about the legality of recording. Use in court is analyzed differently.
 
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The greed and shady behaviour of this company is nothing shocking. What is shocking though are the consumers who see nothing wrong with it.
 
iekozz said:
This is not just happening in Italy, but EU wide. There is a standard 2-year warrenty for all pc/laptops ect here.
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Athonline said:
I knew that all electronic devices, including PS3 should have 2 years warranty base on EU law
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There is no "2 year warranty" based on EU law.

There is EU directive 1999/44/EC "on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees" which states:

"it is appropriate to limit in time the period during which the seller is liable for any lack of conformity which exists at the time of delivery of the goods; (...) Member States may also provide for a limitation on the period during which consumers can exercise their rights, provided such a period does not expire within two years from the time of delivery" (preamble)

"The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery."

The question is: What does "lack of conformity" mean? The EU quite clearly states that lack of conformity applies to the time of delivery of goods to the consumer:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l32022_en.htm

"Conformity" or its lack thereof does not imply that a goods "last" or retain a certain condition over a period of two years. However, there's a legal presumption made:

Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:EN:HTML

Outside of this legal presumption, the burden of proof is of course the one claiming legal rights, i.e., the on the consumer.

Your computer breaks after (more than) six months?
You have to prove that it was defective ("non-conforming") at the time of purchase!

Having said that, EU member countries are free to provide their own legislation which might go further than the the minimum framework stated by the EU directive. The UK seems to do this quite extensively - I don't know anything about Italy. Also note that the EU directive only covers legal relationship between seller and buyer. Apple as a manufacturer or importer isn't required to provide any (manufacturer's) warranty whatsoever to the end-user.
 
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I will explain once again how it works and why...

There are 2 warranties:

The manufacturer's warranty.
The legal warranty.

The former covers problems with the goods which developed within the period of time the warranty lasts (usually 12 months, but it could be more) and it is provided - as the name implies - by the manufacturer.

The latter covers for goods' defects which are present since day 1 in the product (eg. defective soldering, defective hinge, defective CPU, whatever) that will lead to failure in the future. By EU law such warranty lasts 24 months and must be provided by the seller of the goods.

When the plastics of your MacBook crack and you go back to the shop within the first year, the shop will simply send the machine back to Apple for repairs; they may also tell you deal directly with Apple, so that things will be quicker.

When you go back to the shop within the second year, the shop is responsible for the repairs, since the cracked plastics are a manufacturing defect (you may also be required to prove that it is indeed a defect).

Both warranties do not cover abuses/accidental damages and "perishable" parts (eg. inks/batteries and the like).

Are you still with me? Good.

When you buy the goods from Apple, Apple are not only the manufacturer, they are also the seller. What happens in this scenario is that when you go back to the shop (the Apple Store) within the second year with your defective product, Apple will refuse to carry on repairs for free pretending they are just the manufacturer and saying "No Apple Care, no service in the second year".

So Apple were rightfully fined for their behaviour.

It is worth noting that when a defect is widespread and cannot be ignored, Apple will recognise it as a manufacturing defect and extend the manufacturing warranty to 3 years.
 
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charlituna said:
Trouble with that trick in the US is that it is illegal in most states, if not on the Federal level, to record someone without their permission. So the moment you pull out the recorder the other side will end the conversation and tell you to leave and you can't really do anything. And if you keep the recorder in your pocket the lawyers will have it tossed as an illegally made recording and possibly have you charged.
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Not completely true. In a two-party conversation, most states allow recording as long as one member of said conversation is privy to the action. So if I were to call you up or meet you for an earnest discussion over a warranty, I could record our dialogue. This is legal, because I, as one party with vested interest in the conversation, am aware of the recording taking place.

Only 11 states require both parties to be aware they're being recorded.

Edit: Here you go. I spent roughly 20 seconds googling it, so I only found the law that covers telephone communications (I'm lazy). But I believe the same law also applies to direct person to person conversations as well.
 
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boozezela said:
There are 2 warranties:

The manufacturer's warranty.
The legal warranty.

So Apple was rightfully fined for their behaviour.
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Correct. Plus you should mention that the burden of proof switches after the first 6 months.
 
I am currently in dispute with apple over a 32gb £600 iPhone 4 which after 14 months has developed a fault in the home button. I went into the store and the first assistant said that he had the same problem and that its not un-common. He went to get his manager and he point blank refused to do anything, saying that it is out of its 1 year warranty. I explained that the warranty is a contract between the manufacture and the consumer, and that as the retailer they were also bound by the Sale of Goods Act but he was having none of it.

I have now written to Apple explaining that they are misleading consumers and are flirting with the wrong side of the law. I am awaiting a response, if they refuse not only will I be claiming Section 75 claim through my credit card, I will also be taking Apple to court and making sure the media know. It pisses me off when you see big companies fleecing consumers... How can you argue that a £600 phone is only built to last a year. Pathetic.
 
boozezela said:
Full document here, go to page 7.
http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
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Quite astonishing that this was supposedly endorsed (if not written by someone representing) by the European Commission...
However, I still stand by my assessment:

boozezela said:
EU directive 1999/44/EC
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As I stated in my previous post above:
If you look at the EU directive itself, I still fail to see where it's supposed to provide a two-year "guarantee"?!?
 
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AppliedMicro said:
As I stated in my previous post above: If you look at the EU directive itself, it does NOT provide a two-year "guarantee".
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Yes, it provides a two year guarantee.

From his link, page 8:

Product guarantees

‘How long are guarantees on consumer goods valid?’

Viktor used to live in Germany, where it is common for products to have manufacturers’ guarantees of five years. In March 2005, he bought a new washing machine in his home town of Eger in Hungary, but it started to leak water in April 2006.

‘I complained to the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer, but they didn’t want to know. They said in Hungary there is only a one-year guarantee, not five years. What can I do?’

--------------------

In this case, Viktor’s rights as an EU consumer are not being respected by the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer. The fact is that a two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU (Directive 1999/44/EC). In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.
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I think that European institution know their own laws
 
AppliedMicro said:
Yeah, I thought so too.
However, I still fail to find that in the directive itself (or anywhere else, for that matter).
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The directive clearly says that there are TWO years of guarantee.

The first six months without answers and the last eighteen after proving there was a defect
 
boozezela said:
EU directive 1999/44/EC.

'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

Full document here, go to page 7.

http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
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I'm Italian so I can add more from this side.

Despite some losers here that are thinking we are broke, I suggest them, before open the mouth, take a look at their wallet...

(UK? take a look to brits tot amount of debt... more than the GDP.... German? do you own your house? 50% of you don't.... American? Well, you belong to China...)

Back in topic, you're right boozezela: Apple was fined because denied two years warranty and often even refused to apply it.

So Apple was sued by the consumer's associations and lost the trial.

Just to add more info, the 99/44/CE here, was accepted the 24th of Feb, 2002 almost "as is"; it was introduced even one year later than the two years that EU require. Italy paid EU fines for this delay.
 
Oletros said:
The first six months without answers and the last eighteen after proving there was a defect
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In essence, yes.

But then the claim "Viktor’s rights as an EU consumer are not being respected by the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer" would be quite misleading, wouldn't it?

If his washing machine had been working for 13 months without leaking, he'd first have to prove that the machine was defective from the beginning, subsequently "causing" it to leak (months later). That is far from the seemingly "unconditional" 2-year warranty stated.

Also, what has "the representative of the manufacturer" got to do with that? The EU directive covers legal relationship between seller (not manufacturer) and buyer.
 
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AppliedMicro said:
In essence, yes.

But then the claim "Viktor’s rights as an EU consumer are not being respected by the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer" would be quite misleading, wouldn't it?

If his washing machine had been working for 13 months without leaking, he'd first have to prove that the machine was defective from the beginning, subsequently "causing" it to leak (months later). That is far from the seemingly "unconditional" 2-year warranty stated.

Also, what has "the representative of the manufacturer" got to do with that? The EU directive covers legal relationship between seller (not manufacturer) and buyer.
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Nobody is talking about unconditional 2 years warranty.

To prove his washing machine was defective, he could just have asked for a written report from a certified engineer.

My washing machine, for instance, had a rubber hose that lacerated. The cause of laceration was already known to the engineer: the hose was installed too close to the basket and it broke because of friction and contact. Such a report can be enforced in a court of law and if you go to the small claims court there are no additional expenses to pay for.

As per "the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer", I am sure you understand that when you sell something you are representing a brand/make, so the "the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer" is the shop/retailer/reseller of that specific brand/make.
 
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mayflower232 said:
I am currently in dispute with apple over a 32gb £600 iPhone 4 which after 14 months has developed a fault in the home button.
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A fault which wasn't present for the 12 months of the warranty. It just suddenly happened. Apple isn't under any obligation even with this EU law do to anything unless you can prove it was faulty from day one. But the fact that you could use it as prescribed for 14 months will blow that argument.
 
theheadguy said:
Wrong and wrong. It isn't free, and it extends the original warranty-- it doesn't expand its provisions.
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Of course it does.

If your MacBook Pro or iPad breaks down after 4 months, then Apple's one year warranty gets it fixed, and your statutory rights would get it fixed as well.

If your MacBook Pro or iPad breaks down after 7 months, then Apple's one year warranty gets it fixed, but your statutory rights would only get it fixed after you prove that the computer broke because a fault when you bought it.

If your MacBook Pro or iPad breaks down after 13 months, then Apple Care gets it fixed, but your statutory rights would again only get it fixed after you prove that the computer broke because a fault when you bought it.


charlituna said:
A fault which wasn't present for the 12 months of the warranty. It just suddenly happened. Apple isn't under any obligation even with this EU law do to anything unless you can prove it was faulty from day one. But the fact that you could use it as prescribed for 14 months will blow that argument.
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That's not how it works. That button might have been slightly damaged from day one, or it might have been incorrectly mounted so that there was excessive wear each time it was pressed, and it might have stopped working after 14 months because of a fault that was present from the first day. Still, you'd have to prove that it stopped working because of such a fault.


bergert said:
I am sorry, but Apple's web-page is still showing only 1year of warranty; and that is in violation of current EU laws:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/mac.html
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Not in violation with EU laws. When you buy something, you get two warranties: Whatever warranty the manufacturer gives you voluntarily, and whatever warranty you get by law (statutory warranty). They are independent. So for one year you can demand a repair because of Apple's warranty, and from then on you can demand a repair because of your statutory rights. Just remember that the terms are different.

Now this article http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/12/apple-fined-italy-applecare-warranties.html has a link to the original statement and a google translation. I'd say I wouldn't trust the translation on any finer legal points, so the "two year warranty" mentioned is most likely not the same as what we would normally call a warranty. The important things seem to be that (1) Apple stated that they give one year warranty, and they should have told customers that Apple would have to make repairs for longer time depending on circumstances, and (2) when Apple sells Apple Care, they should have told customers that some things covered by Apple Care might already be covered otherwise, depending on the circumstances.

In the UK, you always see the magic words "This does not affect your statutory rights". So in the UK, Apple would have to say "we give you one year warranty ... terms and conditions ... blah blah blah This does not affect your statutory rights" where they sell computers, and they would have to say "gives you three years warranty instead of one year warranty ... blah blah blah ... some damages covered by Apple Care may also be covered by your statutory rights". Should have hired a good lawyer to check their website.
 
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charlituna said:
A fault which wasn't present for the 12 months of the warranty. It just suddenly happened. Apple isn't under any obligation even with this EU law do to anything unless you can prove it was faulty from day one. But the fact that you could use it as prescribed for 14 months will blow that argument.
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No, it doesn't have to be faulty from the beginning, it has to be faulty because a manufacturing cause. Totally different
 
iekozz said:
This is not just happening in Italy, but EU wide. There is a standard 2-year warrenty for all pc/laptops ect here.

The fine is 100% correct and could be higher.
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Agreed. We also have this very problem when we start explaining that in EU warranty is 2 years they go deaf most of the time.
 
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