Apple Fined $1.2 Million in Italy Over Warranty Disclosure Issues

[bmacir]

I read a lot of ignorant comments, to quote just a few:

The EU is collapsing, and this is what they spend their time with?

EU is not collapsing, the whole economy is collapsing. So you are suggesting that we should no longer implement the law?

Typical italian ********tism.

As for the Italy case:
This is pathetic in my opinion, not the action, but the reason behind it. The only reason Italy does it NOW is cause they are in deep troubles with their own economy and trying to farm money out of everywhere before they end-up like Greece. As a Cypriot, I know that Greece government is doing the same, suddenly remember all those consumers' rights and decided to fine companies.

This is a wrong statement in so many ways. The only reason is that Apple breached the law and the Italian Authorities, rightfully, fined Apple. This would happen in any civilized country.

Consumer rights protection is one of the European Union's focal points and thanks God to that! I can't believe this nonsense comes from a Cypriot (where eastern culture was born)!

Yup... It helps that Italy is broke, and they need any pocket change they can find... What does Italy do with the money now?

Again

That's such BS I worked for Apple Care for 3 years and Apple fully discloses all limited and extended warranties. Italy is a bunch a mamby pamby liars.

F them.

Now you are just being rude.

Congrats on getting the EU and Italy mixed up, the EU did not pursue this but the Italian Gov did... also if the EU did pursue it, then good as that is what the EU is there for, it is the EU's job too.

Also it is not collapsing, why do American's seem to think this?

The Italian Gov had nothing to do with this. The fine was issued by an indipendent Authority, which has nothing to do with politics nor Gov.
It just applies the rules with equanimity, as simple as that.

Can everybody please stop calling it a European Law. It's a European directive, that means that EU strongly suggests that everyone makes this their law as well...

No. Sorry. You are wrong. "Strongly suggests", are you serious?
Directives, together with Regulations and Decisions, are legislative acts of the European Union. They can also, at certain conditions, have direct effect.

Please inform yourself before writing nonsense.

Especially Italy, plus some others (Spain, Greece etc.) are broke, so a quick 1.2 million from Apple probably pays for some politician perks

I just feel sad when I read these comments. Thanks God there are some forum members still use common sense:

Yeah shame on them for looking out for their citizens.

The problem is that Apple is selling people something that is effectively useless to them - they're claiming that it will give them benefits that they already have. The law views that as a false claim.

I am sorry, but Apple's web-page is still showing only 1year of warranty; and that is in violation of current EU laws:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/mac.html

 

[gnasher729]

In ENgland the pertinent phrase is "sufficiently durable", if memory serves the sale and goods act states that electronic goods need to be "sufficiently durable" to last for 6 years. That is why I think apple care is a waste of time, if the fault isn't caused by the owner it should be fixed up to 6 years of ownership.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Six years is the point in time where you lose all your rights, no matter how defective the product is and how much the seller is at fault. If Apple sold you a MacBook Pro today, and in the shop an elephant stepped on it, then it was put in a water tank for 12 hours, after burning it with a flame thrower, and you wait six years and one day to complain, then you get nothing. That's what the six years mean.

The product has to last "for a reasonable time", with "reasonable time" depending on the kind of product. For a computer, the "reasonable time" is most certainly a lot less than six years.

And problems don't have to be fixed "if the fault isn't caused by the owner". Problems within the first six months have to be fixed "unless the seller proves that the fault is caused by the owner". Problems after the first six months have to be fixed "if the buyer proves that the fault was caused by the seller". Notice the little detail with "proof"?

 

[Navdakilla]

pfff.. pennies, no biggie

from the sounds of it apple is about to make 10$ per android device sold, not going broke anytime soon

 

[SkyStudios]

pfff.. pennies, no biggie

from the sounds of it apple is about to make 10$ per android device sold, not going broke anytime soon

thats just it, criminal corporations pay off the fines and continue to commit crimes, if apple has turned into one of these monsters sooner or later they fall like the rest of them

im sick of the privacy invasion and snooping stuff, only criminals need to access locations and someones device to snoop on them, criminals themselves do not carry a device and if they did you can bet they know how to hide or will try to before committing the crime, and you can not take anyone's word who claims its good for cops when the feds themselves are properly trained for these jobs and also need warrants.

aside the long awaiting law suites over privacy invasion i have a strong feeling apple's time is running out because tablets are getting very cheap and apple went from cpus to tablets, whats next in a few years when this is over, the mac pro ?

example, where is a new logic pro x?
Cubase and pro tools left logic users in the dust where they have to erase posts comparing features out of embarrassment.

what happened to fcp?
FCP x has features but lacks everything everyone expected to have for their work.

the list goes on

 

[Oletros]

from the sounds of it apple is about to make 10$ per android device sold, not going broke anytime soon

An analyst rumor is becoming a fact

 

[BobbyRond]

I read a lot of ignorant comments to quote just a few:

No. Sorry. You are wrong. "Strongly suggests", are you serious?
Directives, together with Regulations and Decisions are legislative acts of the European Union. They can also, at certain conditions have direct effect.

Please inform yourself before writing nonsense.

Sorry for not getting my wording right...

It is not a suggestion, the directive must also be incorporated in local laws.

If local laws offer better protections for the consumers, all is good, otherwise failure to incorporate will lead to fines.

That's what I meant: "If local law offers a better protections, all is good", so if the Dutch law offers the "sufficiently durable" way of protection (see doktordoris quote) and thinks it is better, that will be the protection for Dutch customers. I personally don't consider that to be better.

In ENgland the pertinent phrase is "sufficiently durable", if memory serves the sale and goods act states that electronic goods need to be "sufficiently durable" to last for 6 years. That is why I think apple care is a waste of time, if the fault isn't caused by the owner it should be fixed up to 6 years of ownership.

The EU didn't force everyone to use the two year seller's warranty as is the case in Italy (as boozezela said). Sorry for calling it "strongly suggests" in stead of a legislative act (that apparently can be altered if you consider it to be a better protection for your consumers).

Satisfied?

 

[bmacir]

Sorry for not getting my wording right...

That's what I meant: "If local law offers a better protections, all is good", so if the Dutch law offers the "sufficiently durable" way of protection (see doktordoris quote) and thinks it is better, that will be the protection for Dutch customers. I personally don't consider that to be better.

The EU didn't force everyone to use the two year seller's warranty as is the case in Italy (as boozezela said). Sorry for calling it "strongly suggests" in stead of a legislative act (that apparently can be altered if you consider it to be a better protection for your consumers).

Satisfied?

Sure, no problem. Maybe I was a little harsh. Sorry.

Though you still didn't get it right. A directive obliges the Member States to achieve a certain result, but leaves them free to choose how to do so.

The Member States must transpose the directive. This means that they must adopt national measures by a deadline set by the institutions. If they fail to do so, they are subject to a fine, and EU citizens can, at certain conditions, claim direct applicability of the directive or claim for compensation.

The national measures must comply with the provisions set by the directive. They can provide stricter measures, but they must comply.

So, using your example, even though the Dutch law offers the "sufficiently durable" way of protection and thinks it is better, I can still ask a Dutch judge to disregard the national provision because the directive has not been correctly transposed and rely on the direct effect of the directive. No matter what the Dutch Gov thinks.

So you see why it wasn't just a matter of wording. The provisions set by the directive can be altered but only if it effectively provides better protection for consumers.

----------

Wrong wrong wrong.

Six years is the point in time where you lose all your rights, no matter how defective the product is and how much the seller is at fault. If Apple sold you a MacBook Pro today, and in the shop an elephant stepped on it, then it was put in a water tank for 12 hours, after burning it with a flame thrower, and you wait six years and one day to complain, then you get nothing. That's what the six years mean.

I don't see how these can be considered as product faults

 

[justperry]

Also it is not collapsing, why do American's seem to think this?

Because their newspapers and TV channels talk a lot about the European crisis, but avoid to talk about their own crisis...

I've the NYT home page open, now. The main illustration is a cake introducing a new restaurant's guide. There are headlines about conflicts in the world (a dangerous place where to live!). Obama nominating two new members of the Fed. And not a single word about their domestic financial situation.

As a former disciple of the editor in chief of this online newspaper, I'm thinking I must meditate a little about modern techniques of mass-consensus manipulation.

Paolo

Exactly Ptram
I find it hugely disturbing that American politics and rating companies are interfering with European Issues.
Hell, I think they are even partially responsible for the mess in Europe, and I mean by that that they might be even orchestrating the whole thing just to get that monkey of their back.
I know some countries have big problems in Europe but its nothing compared to The States(except Greece maybe), the US are and will be in dire straits for quite a few years to come, they wouldn't be if they didn't spent so much on ridiculous unnecessary wars!
The Euro still stands strong, it might have lost ground a bit but is still stronger than U$ Dollars.

Back on topic, I for one didn't know that there is a 2 year EU law on this, thought it was 1 year where I am from.
Edit: But hey I don't live there most of the time.(Asia right now)

 

[bmacir]

(Asia right now)

Not Pitcairn?

Back on topic, I for one didn't know that there is a 2 year EU law on this, thought it was 1 year where I am from.
Edit: But hey I don't live there most of the time.(Asia right now)

The fact is that Apple in Europe has been trying to sell a service - applecare - that has little or no use for Europeans. Apple has not been sincere and tried to force people in buying their product as they had in other countries, with no regard of the local laws as if they don't apply to them.

For example, I had a very bad experience with an almost two years old faulty iPhone I bought in a MediaWorld store in Italy.

I gave my iPhone to the MW service center - the seller is liable for proper performance of your purchase for a period of at least 2 years.

So after returning me an even faultier iPhone, I asked them to repair it again.

They told me that, meanwhile, they received an email - which they gave me copy of - from apple, telling them not to repair apple products in the second year, but to tell customers to contact the apple support center instead.

I contacted apple explaining my situation and they told me that for € 299 they would replace my iPhone with a refurbished one, adding that I should have bought applecare.

I kindly protested and asked for an email from the apple support center stating that I had no right for a free repair / replacement for that particular iPhone, having acknowledged the email in my possession that I obtained from MW. The lady told me she would send me an email with an estimate of costs. She never did.

You see that there is something wrong with this, not at all isolated, policy. Financial crisis has nothing to do with this.

It is apple - which I love as a company in general and despite this little incident - that in this case is at fault.

I sincerely hope that they will soon change this hideous policy and find a better way to sell applecare in Europe without disregarding the local laws.

Otherwise they will be fined again by other Member State's National Authorities or by the European Commission. And for a good reason.

 

[416049]

Now I wonder when other Countries are going to jump into this, also I think this may affect manufactures like Dell as well as they advertise extended warranty as well.

 

[samcraig]

I think it's pretty sad that more than one poster here wants to turn this into a debate about what other companies (not Apple) is doing and also about what state the country is in, etc.

All irrelevant. This story is about Apple and the judgement against them. And some people are complaining that Apple isn't wrong? That other companies are just as wrong? That's like arguing with a cop when you're pulled over for speeding and trying to get out of the ticket because other people were speeding too. Yes. Valid statement. But it doesn't make your violation any different. You got caught. You're the one who was pulled over.

I don't know how Italy's laws and lawsuits work. Maybe this 1.2 million fine is a gateway for a huge class action lawsuit which would be a lot easier for plaintiffs to win if Apple has already been fined for the practice. Again - I have no idea and someone with actual law experience IN Italy might shed better light.

Regardless - I don't see how anyone can argue that Apple shouldn't be fined or that the consumer shouldn't be protected. I know there are plenty of people on this forum who take full advantage (and by that I mean sometimes crossing the lines of ethics, etc) of AppleCare and/or Apple Store's Genius Bar and then brag about it on here.

But by all mean - let's put Apple before the consumer...

 

[bmacir]

Now I wonder when other Countries are going to jump into this, also I think this may affect manufactures like Dell as well as they advertise extended warranty as well.

It's not illegal to offer an extended warranty. It's illegal to false advertise and to use unfair and deceptive practices.

 

[justperry]

Not Pitcairn?

Oops

I think it's pretty sad that more than one poster here wants to turn this into a debate about what other companies (not Apple) is doing and also about what state the country is in, etc.

All irrelevant.

If some people presumably some redneck Americans make blunt statements like : The European Union will collapse then I for one feel "offended" and and will respond to it regardless of the topic.
If You find that irrelevant thats your opinion but I am (And others) free to post what I want as long as I keep within the boundaries of this sites rules.

 

[bmacir]

Oops

My next question would have been how do you like your MindControl Mouse/Keyboard?

 

[justperry]

My next question would have been how do you like your MindControl Mouse/Keyboard?

Depends on if I am intoxicated or not, if so I see two pointers and write rubbish

 

[kdarling]

from the sounds of it apple is about to make 10$ per android device sold, not going broke anytime soon

That was just an amount that an analyst thought Apple could get if they licensed their IP instead of only using it to get injunctions or changes.

 

[samcraig]

Oops



If some people presumably some redneck Americans make blunt statements like : The European Union will collapse then I for one feel "offended" and and will respond to it regardless of the topic.
If You find that irrelevant thats your opinion but I am (And others) free to post what I want as long as I keep within the boundaries of this sites rules.

I think you misunderstood me. I agree. More importantly - I found the comment that slighted Italy because of any economic issue completely obnoxious and unwarranted. That was my point on that matter.

 

[justperry]

I think you misunderstood me. I agree. More importantly - I found the comment that slighted Italy because of any economic issue completely obnoxious and unwarranted. That was my point on that matter.

Ah Ok, I read it a few times more and only now after You explained yourself it became clear, You should have been more explicit about it so it was clear, but I am happy You also find it sad some people make comments like that, that Italian one was a kick in the behind.

 

[gnasher729]

I don't see how these can be considered as product faults

When you leave the shop with your goods, anything that is wrong with the goods at that point is a fault. Would you expect that you are covered by warranty if the manufacturer does something wrong, but not if the sales people damage the goods? You buy a MacBook Pro, the sales guy goes to the back of the store, climbs on a ladder to pull a box out that is stored 3 meters above ground, it drops on the ground, and he gives it to you and you think that shouldn't be covered?

EU directive 1999/44/EC.

'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

Full document here, go to page 7.

http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm

You are not quoting the EU directive. You are quoting a brochure that the EU issues to make you feel good about what they are doing, and the text is just a little blurb under a picture of some obviously happy people, not even part of the main text.

Here is the important bit that you are missing: The seller is responsible for selling you goods that have a decent quality. If they don't, you have rights. If the product fails within the first six months, then it is presumed that this is because the quality wasn't there (unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods). After six months there is no such presumption.

You can't go to a shop and say "the product stopped working, fix it". You _can_ go to the shop and say "the product stopped working, I bought it five months ago, so I presume that it stopped working because you sold me a product that was no good. Fix it unless you can prove that your product was fine." And you _can_ go to the shop and say "the product stopped working, and I can prove that it stopped working because you sold me a product that was no good".

 

[adamtore]

pfff.. pennies, no biggie

from the sounds of it apple is about to make 10$ per android device sold, not going broke anytime soon

No they wont.
Maybe 10$ for a Samsung device, HTC device etc. etc.

But for el goog its easier to change the s.k. "patent" then pay royalites to the big apps.

 

[bmacir]

When you leave the shop with your goods, anything that is wrong with the goods at that point is a fault.

Ah ok, so the product would have been damaged before you bought it...I get it.
Still is't not a product's fault. But I get your point.

What you are saying is that the seller should be liable for having sold a damaged - not defective - product. But we are out of the scope of the directive here and it's not when you leave the shop but before you are given the product

 

[BobbyRond]

Sure, no problem. Maybe I was a little harsh. Sorry.

Though you still didn't get it right. A directive obliges the Member States to achieve a certain result, but leaves them free to choose how to do so.

The Member States must transpose the directive. This means that they must adopt national measures by a deadline set by the institutions. If they fail to do so, they are subject to a fine, and EU citizens can, at certain conditions, claim direct applicability of the directive or claim for compensation.

The national measures must comply with the provisions set by the directive. They can provide stricter measures, but they must comply.

So, using your example, even though the Dutch law offers the "sufficiently durable" way of protection and thinks it is better, I can still ask a Dutch judge to disregard the national provision because the directive has not been correctly transposed and rely on the direct effect of the directive. No matter what the Dutch Gov thinks.

So you see why it wasn't just a matter of wording. The provisions set by the directive can be altered but only if it effectively provides better protection for consumers.

Ok, never knew that was the case... Because I am in retail for an APR, this is really useful stuff, so thanks for clearing that up.

No need to apologize for "being harsh". I can understand it is annoying to see lines and lines of crap you have to read through, trying to find useful comments.

I myself are more annoyed by people discriminating entire groups of people or entire countries, but I guess that's what they created the downvoting button for.

 

[miss.manson]

1.2 million?! Apple is finished!

lmao! apple is a multi-billion dollar company. They'll be fine

 

[bmacir]

Ok, never knew that was the case... Because I am in retail for an APR, this is really useful stuff, so thanks for clearing that up.

No need to apologize for "being harsh". I can understand it is annoying to see lines and lines of crap you have to read through, trying to find useful comments.

I myself are more annoyed by people discriminating entire groups of people or entire countries, but I guess that's what they created the downvoting button for.

ok we are cool then.

I too am annoyed by discrimination...

 

[boozezela]

And you _can_ go to the shop and say "the product stopped working, and I can prove that it stopped working because you sold me a product that was no good".

Yes you can indeed.

The point here is that if the shop is called "Apple", they will tell you "you should have bought Apple Care, we cover the product only for 12 months".