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A fault which wasn't present for the 12 months of the warranty. It just suddenly happened. Apple isn't under any obligation even with this EU law do to anything unless you can prove it was faulty from day one. But the fact that you could use it as prescribed for 14 months will blow that argument.

Having spoken to numerous consumer advice agencies over the issue I think you will find you are wrong. A fault does not have to be present and affecting the device from day one for you to have any rights, it has to be a fault which results from the design/quality of the phone from day one. There is a difference. In my case the home button is a well known issue.

In the UK you are protected for up to a maximum of 6 years, with the key term being 'fit for purpose'. If any product develops a fault within a period that would be considered reasonable for one expect the device to function then you have a claim. Therefore if a Nokia 3310 costing £30 broke after a years use you would have no case, as such a cheap product could not be expected to function problem free for any longer. A £600 top of the range iPhone however, I personally would consider 2 to 3 years standard use, and so would any reasonable person; thus I have a claim.
 
Nobody is talking about unconditional 2 years warranty.
While it doesn't explicitly say so, this European Commission brochure surely makes it look so to the unsuspecting reader!

To prove his washing machine was defective, he could just have asked for a written report from a certified engineer
"Just"? :confused:
That might cost as much as the good itself.
Granted, maybe a bit less in the case of a washing machine.
But in the case of an Airport station, iPod (shuffle, nano), Apple TV (things that you can purchase AppleCare for!) it might easily cost just as much as the product itself - if not more.

I will call any brochure omitting this fact "highly misleading" - whether it's from the European Commission or not. :mad:

if you go to the small claims court there are no additional expenses to pay for
...which might exist in several countries governed by common law.
I am not aware of an equivalent in Germany (for instance).

I am sure you understand that when you sell something you are representing a brand/make, so the "the Hungarian representative of the manufacturer" is the shop/retailer/reseller of that specific brand/make.
There are literally hundreds of shops, retailers and resellers that sell Apple products in many countries. So basically any (!) reseller that sells a manufacturer's goods is supposed to "represent" that manufacturer..? If I purchase an iPod from - let's say - Dixon's in the UK ("representing" the manufacturer Apple) and have a problem with it, I can take it to "Amazon Germany" - because they represent Apple in Germany?

No, I don't quite understand that.

Again: EU law provides a legal relationship between a seller and a buyer - not the manufacturer.
 
There are literally hundreds of shops, retailers and resellers that sell Apple products in many countries. So basically any (!) reseller that sells a manufacturer's goods is supposed to "represent" that manufacturer..? If I purchase an iPod from - let's say - Dixon's in the UK ("representing" the manufacturer Apple) and have a problem with it, I can take it to "Amazon Germany" - because they represent Apple in Germany?

No, I don't quite understand that.

The one that represents the manufacturer is the one where you bought the product.
 
Therefore if a Nokia 3310 costing £30 broke after a years use you would have no case, as such a cheap product could not be expected to function problem free for any longer. A £600 top of the range iPhone however, I personally would consider 2 to 3 years standard use, and so would any reasonable person
Just my personal sentiment, but I highly doubt that the selling price of a product should - or in fact does - legally determine how long it's "reasonably supposed" to last. In fact, you kind of sidestep this question by comparing "years" of use vs. "2 to 3" years.

Rather the nature of the product itself should legally determine how long it's supposed to last.

----------

The one that represents the manufacturer is the one where you bought the product.
Sorry, I got that wrong. I somehow assumed the person tried to make a "guarantee claim in a different country than the one the machine was purchased in. Still find the rambling about "five years", "manufacturer's warranty", "Germany" and "representative of the manufacturer" (as opposed to "two years, mandatory seller's warranty, Hungari and seller, respectively) unnecessarily confusing... :)
 
Also it is not collapsing, why do American's seem to think this?
Because their newspapers and TV channels talk a lot about the European crisis, but avoid to talk about their own crisis...

I've the NYT home page open, now. The main illustration is a cake introducing a new restaurant's guide. There are headlines about conflicts in the world (a dangerous place where to live!). Obama nominating two new members of the Fed. And not a single word about their domestic financial situation.

As a former disciple of the editor in chief of this online newspaper, I'm thinking I must meditate a little about modern techniques of mass-consensus manipulation.

Paolo
 
There is no "2 year warranty" based on EU law.

There is EU directive 1999/44/EC "on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees" which states:

"it is appropriate to limit in time the period during which the seller is liable for any lack of conformity which exists at the time of delivery of the goods; (...) Member States may also provide for a limitation on the period during which consumers can exercise their rights, provided such a period does not expire within two years from the time of delivery" (preamble)

"The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery."

The question is: What does "lack of conformity" mean? The EU quite clearly states that lack of conformity applies to the time of delivery of goods to the consumer:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l32022_en.htm

"Conformity" or its lack thereof does not imply that a goods "last" or retain a certain condition over a period of two years. However, there's a legal presumption made:

Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:EN:HTML

Outside of this legal presumption, the burden of proof is of course the one claiming legal rights, i.e., the on the consumer.

Your computer breaks after (more than) six months?
You have to prove that it was defective ("non-conforming") at the time of purchase!


Having said that, EU member countries are free to provide their own legislation which might go further than the the minimum framework stated by the EU directive. The UK seems to do this quite extensively - I don't know anything about Italy. Also note that the EU directive only covers legal relationship between seller and buyer. Apple as a manufacturer or importer isn't required to provide any (manufacturer's) warranty whatsoever to the end-user.

I know that, but i'm talking about exactly such cases. For example MacBook Pros or iMacs with Nvidia cards that had problems, but were not covered by Apple programs. My colleague is already on a 3rd Nvidia card (iMac 24"). Mac forums are full of people with this problem. Even replacments don't last very long sometimes. If not this directive customer would have only two choices to pay for replacment or just throw that computer, sell it for parts.

Even in these cases it took some effort and nerves on our side to 'win'.
 
This is not just happening in Italy, but EU wide. There is a standard 2-year warrenty for all pc/laptops ect here.

The fine is 100% correct and could be higher.

Apple has to abide by the rules, all the corps use cheap labor at least give me my 2 year warranty. Fair is fair.

AppleCare should be cheaper now, or extended cuz we already have rights to a 2 year warranty in the EU.

Can everybody please stop calling it a European Law. It's a European directive, that means that EU strongly suggests that everyone makes this their law as well...

The Netherlands and the UK are both using the "fair life expectancy" law which gives you a 6 month warranty without any doubts (unless there are user damages of course), and then a variable amount of time (for electronics it's a total of 2 years) of reasonable use.

So if a MacBook breaks down after 1.5 years, the customer has to prove this problem occurred because of a fault that has existed at the time of purchase.

I don't know whether Italy uses the 2 year warranty or the variable amount of reasonable use...

I just can't stand it when people watch "Watchdog" in the UK or "Radar" in the Netherlands and think that those people actually know what their talking about. Those programs just want to attract viewers.

EDIT: gnasher729 is of the few who actually get it right...
 
So...the elephant in the room here is why,if EU Directive 1999/44/EC is supposedly in force giving this "Two year warranty", doesn't Apple get charged with breaking EU Law in every nation state for every breach of their own warranty.
 
So...the elephant in the room here is why,if EU Directive 1999/44/EC is supposedly in force giving this "Two year warranty", doesn't Apple get charged with breaking EU Law in every nation state for every breach of their own warranty.

Because 1994/44/EC is not a law, is a directive and it has to be transposed onto every EU country law.
 
"Just"? :confused:
That might cost as much as the good itself.
Granted, maybe a bit less in the case of a washing machine.
But in the case of an Airport station, iPod (shuffle, nano), Apple TV (things that you can purchase AppleCare for!) it might easily cost just as much as the product itself - if not more.

That's irrelevant.

If the engineer writes the report (proving that there was a defect in the first place) and performs the repair you can have the repair costs refunded.

If you go in front of a court of law and you can prove the product is defective you can have the costs you incurred to prove the product was defective refunded and the product exchanged/repaired for free.

There are literally hundreds of shops, retailers and resellers that sell Apple products in many countries. So basically any (!) reseller that sells a manufacturer's goods is supposed to "represent" that manufacturer..? If I purchase an iPod from - let's say - Dixon's in the UK ("representing" the manufacturer Apple) and have a problem with it, I can take it to "Amazon Germany" - because they represent Apple in Germany?

If you bought the goods from Dixon in the UK, you can go back to Dixons in the UK.

Since you did not purchase the goods from Amazon in Germany, you cannot go to Amazon in Germany.

Again: EU law provides a legal relationship between a seller and a buyer - not the manufacturer.

And again nobody said otherwise.
 
Well done EU

And about time too, Apple offers premium products with the highest margins and should thus also provide the best guarenty terms. At the moment they offer far less than required by law and ask for a ridicules premium for Apple care and then per product. As we have approx 10 Apple products in house the Apple care premium is just crazy.

However I must note that the past years Apple has replaced free of charge several battery's and hard drives all beyond the one year guaranty period. Yes you have to argue for it and claim your lea gel right but fair is fair at the end they helped.

I for one would feel much better with recommending Apple products (and keep buying myself) if Apple offers more guaranty than the minimum the law demands. This would fit in Apples philosophy of "Think different" and provide the best user experience.
 
Can everybody please stop calling it a European Law. It's a European directive, that means that EU strongly suggests that everyone makes this their law as well...

It is not a suggestion, the directive must also be incorporated in local laws.

If local laws offer better protections for the consumers, all is good, otherwise failure to incorporate will lead to fines.

I don't know whether Italy uses the 2 year warranty or the variable amount of reasonable use...

Two years legal (seller's) warranty in Italy.

The problem is that the EU directive does not protect the seller: if the manufacturer does not acknowledge during the second year a failure being the result of a manufacturing defect, the seller is screwed.

Think about how low margins are on electronics/computers.
 
Correct. I had an expensive Neff fridge where the ice maker died one week before the two year warranty was up. I called the seller (an agent for Neff) who claimed there was only a one year warranty. I told them about the EU law and to go off an check it. They did and came back and accepted the fault and replaced the unit without charge.

So its a min of 2 years, local laws can add to this and no you don't have to have the fault there from the start. Its basically that the goods have to last and work as expected. I as the consumer expected the ice maker to last more than 2 years and so I was covered.

No, it doesn't have to be faulty from the beginning, it has to be faulty because a manufacturing cause. Totally different
 
We have the same thing in Quebec :

38. Goods forming the object of a contract must be durable in normal use for a reasonable length time, having regard to their price, the terms of the contract and the conditions of their use.

1978, c. 9, s. 38.

http://www2.publicationsduquebec.go...lecharge.php?type=2&file=/P_40_1/P40_1_A.html

Basically, all extended warranties are a sham here. Goods, by law, must be in working order for the duration of their lifetime. No, the defect does not have to be there from day 1, it just needs to be a defect that arises from a manufacturing or design fault.
 
Can everybody please stop calling it a European Law. It's a European directive, that means that EU strongly suggests that everyone makes this their law as well...
"Law" is a general word. Does anyone actually, officially have "laws"? In the US, for instance, it's generally called Constitution, Code, or Statute for the laws of the 51 main governments. Local govts call them the same, Rules, or Ordinance. I'm sure we could find some that specifically use Law, too, but I've never seen one.

So, you are just arguing over a general word that covers all of this and makes perfect sense to use in any or all such discussions. Relax.
 
Basically, all extended warranties are a sham here. Goods, by law, must be in working order for the duration of their lifetime. No, the defect does not have to be there from day 1, it just needs to be a defect that arises from a manufacturing or design fault.

What do you call a defect? If the fan on my computer runs too slow, and this kills my computer within 15 months due to excessive heat, then the defect (slow fan) _is_ there from day 1. The computer works even with the defect for 15 months, so the malfunction isn't there from day one, but the defect is.

If the fan on my computer is built badly so it slows down during the first year until it is useless, and that kills my computer within 15 months, then the defect (badly built fan) _is_ there from day 1, even though a visible problem (slow fan) develops over 12 months, and the malfunction happens even later.

In the end, _anything_ was either there when the computer was sold, and the seller (in the UK) is responsible, or something happened later (I put chewing gum on the fan), and it is not the seller's responsibility.
 
Refunds

What about costumer refunds? I bet costumers spent (in total) much more than the €900, I was one of them, although my apple care already paid itself.
 
In the end, _anything_ was either there when the computer was sold, and the seller (in the UK) is responsible, or something happened later (I put chewing gum on the fan), and it is not the seller's responsibility.

Just as an example:

The fan was incorrectly lubricated (manufacturing defect) as a result the fan slowed down. After 15 months some other component died because the speed of the fan/temperature of the component were outside of specs.

As a result of a manufacturing defect the computer failed. The fan was spinning, you could not know it was not spinning at the right speed.

Another example:

The solder joints between a memory chip and the motherboard are weak, let's say because of excessive tension. After 18 months the solder joint cracks. The manufacturing defect became a fault.

Another one:

The plastics of your notebook are poorly chosen, after 20 months the plastics are all cracked because they could not withstand the stress induced by heat-related expansion and contraction.

In all the above cases you could not notice anything wrong with the components, but your device died months after because of manufacturing defects that lead to failures.
 
Everytime someone asks my dad if he wants the warrenty, he goes on this speil "Why? Is it gonna break before 1 year is up? If thats the case I don't want it" lol always throws sales people for a spin.
 
In ENgland the pertinent phrase is "sufficiently durable", if memory serves the sale and goods act states that electronic goods need to be "sufficiently durable" to last for 6 years. That is why I think apple care is a waste of time, if the fault isn't caused by the owner it should be fixed up to 6 years of ownership.

Admittedly there may be room for confrontation over the phrase "sufficiently durable" but it is always worth waving a copy of the sale of goods act under the nose of a recalcitrant shopkeeper.

this is from the beeb website the page can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8253915.stm-



To mark National Consumer Week, here are five laws the canny shopper should be using in their battle to get stuff that actually works.
There is a war being fought between customers and many of the firms they have to deal with. It is an asymmetric conflict - the little man versus the faceless, bad customer service monoliths.
On the little man's side there are only newspaper consumer pages and a rather handy selection of laws.
SALE OF GOODS ACT
The Headline: You might not need that five-year extended warranty after all.
The Scenario: Your iconic white MP3 player, the totemic centre of your life, breaks down precisely 366 days after you bought it. The large electronics firm that sold you the MP3 player says that because the one-year guarantee had elapsed, there's nothing they can do to help you. You'll just have to buy another one.

Some items, like washing machines, are expected to last a long time
Tears drip disconsolately on to its lifeless grey screen as you ponder what to do.
But there's some good news. The operative who spoke to you didn't know what they were talking about
The Truth: The Sale of Goods Act says that your MP3 player must be fit for purpose.
"It must be as described. It must be of satisfactory quality, sufficiently durable, free from any defects," says Dr Christian Twigg-Flesner, a consumer law expert at the University of Hull.
If you've ignored the manufacturer's warnings and have been leaving the player out in direct sunshine and wearing it in the bath, then you probably haven't got much of a case.
But if the player has been lovingly treated and has still conked out that suggests something may have been wrong with it at the very beginning.
It works like this. For the first four-five weeks you have a "right of rejection" - if the item you've bought breaks down, you can demand a refund.
For the next six months, you are entitled to replacement or repair of the goods. It is up to the retailer to prove there was nothing wrong with it if they wish to get out of having to do the work. And then after six months, there is still a duty to replace or repair faulty goods, but the onus is on you, the consumer, to prove that there was something wrong.
And the key time span is six years. That's how long goods may be covered by the Sale of Goods Act. It all depends on what "sufficiently durable" means. If a light bulb goes after 13 months, the consumer is not going to be overly gutted. If their washing machine goes after the same time span they are going to be livid.
The government's guidelines say: "Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description."
And be aware that if you go to the washing machine repairer, spend money attempting to diagnose an inherent fault, and find out you have been using it the wrong way, then you are going to be out of pocket.
A key fact is that your relationship in the Sale of Goods Act is with the retailer, not the manufacturer.
"The retailer likes shepherding you off to the manufacturer," says Dr Twigg-Flesner.
And there are still reasons why you might want an extended warranty - they often include loan machines and ongoing technical support that you would otherwise miss out on. But they are not always good value, says Dr Twigg-Flesner.
"I've never bought one."
Where it applies: The law applies across the UK, but has numerous small differences as applied in Scotland.
 
What do you call a defect? If the fan on my computer runs too slow, and this kills my computer within 15 months due to excessive heat, then the defect (slow fan) _is_ there from day 1. The computer works even with the defect for 15 months, so the malfunction isn't there from day one, but the defect is.

If the fan on my computer is built badly so it slows down during the first year until it is useless, and that kills my computer within 15 months, then the defect (badly built fan) _is_ there from day 1, even though a visible problem (slow fan) develops over 12 months, and the malfunction happens even later.

In the end, _anything_ was either there when the computer was sold, and the seller (in the UK) is responsible, or something happened later (I put chewing gum on the fan), and it is not the seller's responsibility.

If a capacitator fails suddenly after 15 months but it is rated for a life of 30 months, then the defect wasn't there when it shipped.

If any parts fail due to their MTBF being too low for the conditions in which the product is used (normal conditions) and the product thus is rendered non-fonctionnal, then the problem wasn't there when it shipped (that one is a design flaw, a compressor bearing failure in a fridge for instance).

That's what I call a defect. In the end, it's the same for warranties. They only cover manufacturing or design defects, not abuse or stress generated from abusive use. Same for the warranty provided by the law.
 
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