Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
so now can anyone tell me if i can really get some help? i never intended to use a non AT&T sim, but just out of curiosity tried the unlock software once.

and needless to say after the firmware update last night, my phone doesn't work with my AT&T sim. can someone confirm that i can bring my phone to apple genius and they will fix it? i can't be without my phone for to long.

Unless Apple is feeling very generous or the hacking community makes a breakthrough you are screwed.
You breached your licence agreement, voided warranty. Apple has no obligation to help you. They might, but I wouldn't count on it.
Your best bet is hackers coming up with a 'fix'. In that case, you'll probably be forced into this situation again in the future, as long as the hackers and apple keep playing chicken.
 
bricks are for chimneys

I can't believe this thread is 2 pages long already and still there is no actual information in it. :eek:

My fondest wish is that everyone would stop using the term "bricked" as it's completely meaningless and vague.

- were the "bricked" phones that it's *rumored* (by one person so far) are being fixed by Apple geniuses, actually unlocked phones?

- were they bricked by reason of third party applications being installed?

- were they unable to use the AT&T sim but otherwise not "bricked" at all?

- were they merely phones that failed to update properly for some other reason?

I have seen all of the above and even some "not working correctly but still actually working" iPhones referred to as "bricked." Would it hurt anyone to be specific about things? To actually let us in on the specifics of the problems encountered so they can be grouply diagnosed? What firmware they were using and whether they had the radio firmware altered as well as the iphone firmware are crucial, yet only one post in a hundred has anything close to that kind of detail.

All the blabber back and forth about this topic and 99% of it is useless noise.

I don't know why I expected anything else really, but isn't this forum supposed to be for smart, knowledgeable Apple insiders? :mad:
 
Apple must surely have to release a restore utility - or be sued - and lose. Do they make you sign a contract when you purchase the device in store? I wasn't aware they did. I thought the contract and terms of use started when you activated the phone.

Surely they've got to allow you to restore the device to how it was when you left the store (and before you entered into any terms of use contract)? They surely have to give you the opportunity to use the device "as it was intended".
 
Apple must surely have to release a restore utility - or be sued - and lose. Do they make you sign a contract when you purchase the device in store? I wasn't aware they did. I thought the contract and terms of use started when you activated the phone.

Surely they've got to allow you to restore the device to how it was when you left the store (and before you entered into any terms of use contract)? They surely have to give you the opportunity to use the device "as it was intended".
Turn the fancy box around and read the REQUIREMENTS. By purchasing this product, you accept those conditions. Just because you didn't sign anything doesn't mean you aren't responsible for it. Notice how you can't do anything on the phone without connecting to iTunes, activating and electronically SIGNING your name to their agreements.
 
Apple must surely have to release a restore utility - or be sued - and lose. Do they make you sign a contract when you purchase the device in store? I wasn't aware they did. I thought the contract and terms of use started when you activated the phone.

Surely they've got to allow you to restore the device to how it was when you left the store (and before you entered into any terms of use contract)? They surely have to give you the opportunity to use the device "as it was intended".


A law suit because you broke the SLA of the phone won't work.
The people having legitimate problems will be sorted by Apple.
Everyone else doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 
Can you fall out of step for a second?

If you installed some kind of window manager on your macbook, would it be ok for the computer to shutdown and not restart because you are no longer in tune with the user experience that apple had planned for you? Does it make you a "bad" person? I think the people who hack the iphone are a vibrant and important part of the apple community. Apple was founded by geeks like that, and the whole friggin home computer industry sprung up because of people who stretched the boundaries of what was possible.

While I agree that apple shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accomodate these people, I also dont think that apple should go to any lengths to discourage them. Apple can not be held liable by AT&T for people going to these lengths to unlock their phones. As long as Apple is not providing the software or information to do so I don't see how that argument would even hold up in court. Its not like other phones don't get unlocked as well. the iphone was not advertised as unhackable was it?

I dont own an iphone, and I doubt I will buy one. It is a really cool PDA, but I need a keyboard to type so I have the 8525. I see the people who hacked their iphones as individuals who do not like to have their free choice infringed upon. They are people who do not like being force-fed a provider. They are paying their phone bills like everyone else, but simply using a different carrier. I would think their gripe is not with apple, but with AT&T.

I am surprised that the apple community on this forum seems to be hostile toward that group. Is free choice not the american way? When did we all become a bunch of mindless shills for a corporation? Bucking the system is something that is almost as american as apple pie, or as Apple for that matter. Its what the 1984 Apple commercial was all about. IMHO it is the spirit of apple. If it was my company I would encourage the free use of the iphone on any carrier. I would probably make sure that the unlocking instructions somehow ended up in the right hands, and then I would go through at least minimal diligence to ensure that my ROM upgrades would not leave the phone in a bad state.
 
If you installed some kind of window manager on your macbook, would it be ok for the computer to shutdown and not restart because you are no longer in tune with the user experience that apple had planned for you? Does it make you a "bad" person? I think the people who hack the iphone are a vibrant and important part of the apple community. Apple was founded by geeks like that, and the whole friggin home computer industry sprung up because of people who stretched the boundaries of what was possible.

While I agree that apple shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accomodate these people, I also dont think that apple should go to any lengths to discourage them. Apple can not be held liable by AT&T for people going to these lengths to unlock their phones. As long as Apple is not providing the software or information to do so I don't see how that argument would even hold up in court. Its not like other phones don't get unlocked as well. the iphone was not advertised as unhackable was it?

I dont own an iphone, and I doubt I will buy one. It is a really cool PDA, but I need a keyboard to type so I have the 8525. I see the people who hacked their iphones as individuals who do not like to have their free choice infringed upon. They are people who do not like being force-fed a provider. They are paying their phone bills like everyone else, but simply using a different carrier. I would think their gripe is not with apple, but with AT&T.

I am surprised that the apple community on this forum seems to be hostile toward that group. Is free choice not the american way? When did we all become a bunch of mindless shills for a corporation? Bucking the system is something that is almost as american as apple pie, or as Apple for that matter. Its what the 1984 Apple commercial was all about. IMHO it is the spirit of apple. If it was my company I would encourage the free use of the iphone on any carrier. I would probably make sure that the unlocking instructions somehow ended up in the right hands, and then I would go through at least minimal diligence to ensure that my ROM upgrades would not leave the phone in a bad state.

Unlocking the phone against the end user agreement and hacking the phone to add some applications are two completely separate things. I'm all for application development and pushing what this phone can do. But unlocking the phone to use on other networks and then crying about how it no longer works is a bunch of baloney.

In your comparison, installing a new window manager on OSX is like installing a new application on the iphone.

However, unlocking an iphone to use on TMOBILE is like hacking OSX to run on non mac hardware.

Do you understand the difference? Should we all be suing Apple to allow to run OSX on any platform we want? MAC hardware is after all , just standard PC parts.
 
I think some people here need to read 1984! In a surreal twist of fate, Apple has become Big Brother!

No, I was simply saying (read it properly, please): Apple must surely enable those who have purchased an iPhone to restore their device to the state it was when they left the store. I'm not saying they have to allow you to hack the device in the future.

You don't enter into an SLA contract until you USE the device/service. If Apple wanted to stop people from being able to purchase an iPhone without agreeing to its terms of USE, they would have to get you to agree to it before ringing the device through their registers. Or change their general terms of sales.
 
If you installed a set of wheels on your car that made the axles bend out of shape, would you take the car back to the manufacturer and demand they replace them? You sure as hell wouldn't, because it's not covered by the limited warranty as they are commonly called. Same thing.

If I had installed a set of wheels on my car that ran perfectly fine, but next time I brought the car to the dealership for a tuneup they disabled the car completely because they didn't like the wheels, I'd sure as hell sue.
 
If I had installed a set of wheels on my car that ran perfectly fine, but next time I brought the car to the dealership for a tuneup they disabled the car completely because they didn't like the wheels, I'd sure as hell sue.
The update isn't bricking phones that have had apps (wheels) added. They are bricking iphones that have been unlocked to other carriers. If you unlocked your ECU and added a new firmware to disable the speed limiter. Then the dealer updated your custom ECU to attempt to fix a separate issue, and it bricked the ECU. Then you are SOL.

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO RUN THESE UPDATES. RUN YOUR UNLOCKED IPHONE ON 1.0.2.

Difference.
 
First, let me preface this by saying that I am not one bit opposed to hacking the iPhone or any other consumer electronic device for that matter. However, I think people are making this whole issue WAY too complicated.

The reason Apple set up the iPhone to work with AT&T is because that is who they reached a mutual agreement with and it benefits them both. Same with any other cell phone that is designed for a specific carrier (Even if those are easier to unlock than the iPhone). The point is, though, that the agreement between these two companies was reached and since Apple created and owns the rights to creation of the iPhone, they can sell it however they like. That is the advantage of living in a free open market economy.

In order to ensure the software and hardware lives up to the standards that Apple has set (not the hacking community or the fan community) Apple (jsut like every other consumer electronic manufacturer) says in their liscense agreement basically "When you buy OUR product that WE made for a specific purpose, you are agreeing to use that product the way it was intended to be used. Any other use or alteration of that product is your choice, but we cannot be responsible for that."

Apple has a responsibility to update their product to their specifications and their's alone. All they have said is that our updates may render altered units inoperable. DUH! Without knowing what people have done, they can't guarantee the update will work. If you are using the item the way it was intended, they can guarantee it will work, because that is how they test. If you don't like the way the item works, then alter it and take the risk, or maybe, this is not the device for you and you should wait until the right device for you is out there. Those are your options, but the main point here is that it is YOUR choice.

American really needs to stop thinking aobut "Well, I'll sue" as the answer for everything and start thinking about who the responsibility really falls on.

Again, don't get me wrong, I am not against hacking at all. I have a hacked PSP, I have hacked electronics before, but every time I do, I realize that if I break it, I buy it. It's my fault for altering the purpose of the device, not the company's for not giving me free rights to do whatever I want to the product that they made, and then get mad when they don't support me for basically saying "Your product is not good enough, I need to change it, and I want you to fix it if I break it."

There I said my piece. Let the flaming begin, becasue I know it's coming. Just try to realize what I am saying, and not misunderstand what many may think I am saying.
 
What happens to your contract?

I've read a lot about the update/bricking issue, but I've yet to read any sort of official word on is what the bricking of a phone does to your contract. So, if you get a bricked iPhone while you're still on AT&T, as a result of hacking to install third party software versus changing networks, what happens to your contract? Are you obligated to continue to pay for cell service even though you have a non-functioning device? And a nonbricking-related contract question: if halfway through your ocntract you decide there's something better out there and change devices, what happens to Apple's share of the AT&T revenue?
 
I've read a lot about the update/bricking issue, but I've yet to read any sort of official word on is what the bricking of a phone does to your contract. So, if you get a bricked iPhone while you're still on AT&T, as a result of hacking to install third party software versus changing networks, what happens to your contract? Are you obligated to continue to pay for cell service even though you have a non-functioning device? And a nonbricking-related contract question: if halfway through your ocntract you decide there's something better out there and change devices, what happens to Apple's share of the AT&T revenue?

It is the same as any other cell phone contract. You signed up for two years, and that is what you are contractually responsible for. If your phone breaks then you are still responsible for the contract you signed your name to. As for the second half of your question, that is why breaking a cell phone contract costs $175 to $200 with all the carriers. Becasue when that contract is sold to you, their financial department records the total of your two year contract in their books as revenue. When you break the contract early, they record it at a loss, and the contract brek fee helps them recover a portion of that loss.
 
A law suit because you broke the SLA of the phone won't work.
The people having legitimate problems will be sorted by Apple.
Everyone else doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Apparently few posters have bothered to read (and understand) either the SLA or the hardware warranty.

1) The warranty doesn't apply to software mods. It's for hardware only. When it talks about mods, it means hardware mods.

2) There is NO software warranty. Apple specifically takes no responsibility even for its own code, even in their SLA which I doubt anyone read before activating with ATT. If you activated another way, perhaps it was never even agreed to. In either case, some states don't allow companies to deny repairs, and the SLA even notes that.
 
The update isn't bricking phones that have had apps (wheels) added.

Yet. But everyone here is justifying this with the License Agreement, and the license agreement doesn't allow you to hack your phone to install third party software either. Jobs was very clear about that from the get go, and whenever he made specific mention to hacking, he actually directly addressed third party software (taking down the Cingular network, etc.) So, if you think Apple is justified in disabling a phone hacked to work on a different network based on their License Agreement, then you have to assume they're just being magnanimous right now and allowing hacked phones with third party software to operate. But if tomorrow they decided to brick phones with third party software installed, according to your rationale they'd also be justified.
 
It is the same as any other cell phone contract. You signed up for two years, and that is what you are contractually responsible for. If your phone breaks then you are still responsible for the contract you signed your name to. As for the second half of your question, that is why breaking a cell phone contract costs $175 to $200 with all the carriers. Becasue when that contract is sold to you, their financial department records the total of your two year contract in their books as revenue. When you break the contract early, they record it at a loss, and the contract brek fee helps them recover a portion of that loss.

True, but if I'm not breaking a contract with AT&T, just choosing to use a different phone under the same contract, does their obligation to share revenue with Apple automatically cease? This is totally off the point of the tread, I know and I apologize. I was just curious.
 
I'm wondering if you guys had any luck getting the iphone fixed by them geniuses? I'm thinking of making an appointment to get my iPhone fix because yesterday i updated my iphone and i get the "incorrect sim" message and I only had my iphone for 2 weeks
 
Obviously Apple is trying not to be mean about this but still wants to maintain its control. If your phone gets bricked, come in, get it fixed, and hopefully you've learned your lesson. Otherwise, stay "underground" and hope the hackers come up with a fix for you. It sounds like a good policy.
 
So what about a phone that has been "activated" to work as a wifi device/iPod but never connected to iTunes to activate as a cell phone? Does this update break it?
 
The real question is how many lawsuits will be filed by 5pm Pacific time tomorrow.

Apple will have to prove why they needed to alter the modem firmware. If you unlock your phone (which is legal except to the Apple/ATT drones above) then restore to firmware 1.0.2 the unlock remains intact. Apple is going to have to prove technical improvements made by altering the modem firmware. They are going to have to open their trade secrets in court.

Apple should have ignored the less than 5% of unlocked phones and updated the iPhone without affecting unlocked ones.

In the long run, this is going to affect Apples revenue and reputation.

Apple is the new M$
Greed is good
Consumer (legal) rights are better.

They patched the modem firmware because the unlock uses a hole in the firmware. Essentially there's a security hole there and the unlock uses it to break the ATT lock. Apple closed the hole. There was a raging debate in one of the other threads about this, and the fact that the phones are back to needing ATT activation means Apple replaced the (security flawed) firmware with new, non-flawed firmware. The fact that an unlock was created from it does not make the unlock legal or the hole unpatchable. Apple has just as much of an obligation to fix a security issue as they do to uphold local laws. And no local unlock laws say you need to follow the software of some hackers who broke your code...there's almost definitely a legal unlock that Apple will trot out when told to by a local municipality, but NO ONE can tell Apple they have to uphold a hacked solution, especially one that uses an exploit.

I am all for unlocking. But I do understand why Apple closed that hole. Brush up on your local laws regarding unlocking and take them to court, then you'll get an unlock they can't break.
 
I hope Apple do get sued, serves them right for stopping our freedom to do whatever we want with OUR OWN DEVICES!
 
This has to do with the "moss" debacle. Apple is treading a very thin line on bricking over an unlock and I think they are realizing the backlash is coming. Seems like they just might have to do this to keep the class action from coming as doing this brick lock violates federal law in regards to the moss law.

There are also reports that those who are using AT&T "Pay As You Go" plans on unmodified iPhones are experiencing issues with the 1.1.1 update which is "bricking" their phone and causing the IMEI to also change from the original.

Since a changed IMEI is how Apple was detecting unlocked iPhones to deny them warranty service, if you did unlock your iPhone and subsequently bricked it with a 1.1.1. update, if it has the original AT&T SIM in it, you can (wrongfully) claim that you are on an AT&T "PAYG" plan and receive warranty service at an Apple Store since, at the moment, it appears Apple Stores can't check what AT&T rate plan is on the iPhone.
 
The point is, though, that the agreement between these two companies was reached and since Apple created and owns the rights to creation of the iPhone, they can sell it however they like. That is the advantage of living in a free open market economy.

A free market doesn't grant unlimited rights to any company. Microsoft developed their software, sold it how they decided it should be sold, and have gotten their corporate asses slapped in court many a time for unfair business practices. The market has rules, and consumers have rights.

Apple has a responsibility to update their product to their specifications and their's alone. All they have said is that our updates may render altered units inoperable. DUH! Without knowing what people have done, they can't guarantee the update will work. If you are using the item the way it was intended, they can guarantee it will work, because that is how they test. If you don't like the way the item works, then alter it and take the risk, or maybe, this is not the device for you and you should wait until the right device for you is out there. Those are your options, but the main point here is that it is YOUR choice.

I'd agree with you there, but only to a certain extent. The issue is, I don't know if they are, and that's at least arguable, but if they're intentionally disabling phones as a way of retaliation instead of as an indirect result of necessary software updates, the courts will have to decide if that's fair or not. And since the only way to prove they're not in court might be with revealing their code, Apple themselves might decide it's not worth the fight.

American really needs to stop thinking aobut "Well, I'll sue" as the answer for everything and start thinking about who the responsibility really falls on.

You know, people love to say that, but lawsuits are part of a free market as well. The courts are there to be arbiters between two disagreeing partners. To the more powerless party of a dispute, they're invaluable in leveling the field (to the extent that the quality of the litigators can be dismissed) against a gigantic corporation. Consider the alternative, if courts weren't out there to decide who's right. Would you like that better? Do you think consumers would ever win if the free market was left to its own devices? Sometimes, consumers should own up to their practices, it's true. But many times corporations are the ones who should do so. And in the game of free market retaliation, Apple's power to hurt a single consumer with disabling a $600 device is much greater than that single consumer's power to hurt Apple, a multibillion dollar company, by deciding not to buy their products, and that's why the free market can't balance itself, so courts are needed. And also, this whole Americans in court thing isn't really fair either. I'm not American, and heck, I don't even own an iPhone. But it's the EU who has taken Microsoft to the courts time after time. And kudos to them for that.
 
True, but if I'm not breaking a contract with AT&T, just choosing to use a different phone under the same contract, does their obligation to share revenue with Apple automatically cease? This is totally off the point of the tread, I know and I apologize. I was just curious.

You could buy a new phone to use with your contract at full phone price and if it was not an iPhone, then I am sure you could just remove the data portion of your plan or replace it with another. What some people don't realize is that the iPhone plans are all the exact same as the normal ATT talk plans plus $20 for data. That is why when you get an iPhone as an existing customer, you just add $20 to whatever your talk plan is.

I don't know what kind of contract they have with Apple as far as revenue sharing. Could have been a set amount at the start of the agreement. Could be a portion of each contract sold (Unlikely since iPhone tlak prices are not any higher than other ATT phones), or could be a specific amount for the period of the ATT/Apple contract that could have gains/losses based on the number of retained contracts. Could be anything really. They may share a portion of the data plan, who knows.

It sounds liike you may be interested in taking amoral stand against Apple but not ATT. That is fine, but as far as money goes, they probably have already pocketed any kind of share from your particular agreement with apple/Att.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.