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nagromme

macrumors G5
May 2, 2002
12,546
1,196
Apple should have ignored the less than 5% of unlocked phones and updated the iPhone without affecting unlocked ones.

Ignoring them might not be the way to avoid breaking them. If the firmware was upgraded for REAL reasons (which seems very possible in such a new and growing product) then the way to avoid breaking hacked phones would be to pay them EXTRA attention: beta test on them, debug for them, and modify Apple's own plans to make sure the hacks still work without requiring the hack builders to change anything. That really doesn't make sense for Apple to do. Let the hack builders adapt to Apple's changes rather than Apple spending time and money testing the various hacks. I'd rather Apple spend time improving the iPhone than making things easier for unsupported unlocking. Much as I do understand the desire to unlock, and support the concept.

Now, if Apple had no legitimate reason to update the iPhone firmware, and if their intentional locking was by their own choice and not mandated by their agreements with AT&T, then that's a real shame. We'll see if that worst-case scenario is the truth or not. I for one don't have those facts.
 

plinden

macrumors 601
Apr 8, 2004
4,029
142
Apple will have to prove why they needed to alter the modem firmware.

There is absolutely no evidence as to what Apple changed. To me, as a software engineer, it seems more likely that Apple modified the device software but not the modem software. If the device software is expecting to be able to talk to the modem software in a certain way, but the modem firmware has been hacked (as it was for the unlocking), then it's highly likely the phone part won't work. This seems to me to be what happened, since the upgrade fails on the activation step.

What you and the complainers forget is, Apple has absolutely no obligation to make sure the upgrade doesn't brick hacked phones.

Yes, it should be unlockable. Yes, it should support third party apps. But until that is possible through a published API, anyone who has hacked their iPhone must accept that any software upgrade could brick their iPhones. You make the choice - Apple-sanctioned upgrade on unhacked devices, or no more upgrades on hacked devices.

And please, those of you (not spacepower7) who are saying "what about those in the rest of the world?" ... Apple has absolutely no obligation to sell the iPhone in any market. Again, if you unlocked your iPhone to use it in Canada or Europe, you made a choice. If it's bricked through an update, it's your fault.
 

Leo74

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2007
63
0
Just wondering if anyone has read anything about one other thing: in Europe, there are countries with regulations to prevent locking of devices to a single network. I don't recall the specifics, but I believe providers are obligated to unlock phones if a user decides to exit their contracts, or something of sorts. Has anyone read anything about that, and how Apple's disabling of unlocked phones will affect users in such countries?
 

sananda

macrumors 68030
May 24, 2007
2,807
962
Just wondering if anyone has read anything about one other thing: in Europe, there are countries with regulations to prevent locking of devices to a single network. I don't recall the specifics, but I believe providers are obligated to unlock phones if a user decides to exit their contracts, or something of sorts. Has anyone read anything about that, and how Apple's disabling of unlocked phones will affect users in such countries?

i'm in the UK. and decided to do a little research. i called ofcom (the independent regulator and competition authority for the UK communications industries) and asked them if networks were obliged to unlock phones at the customer's request and, if so, after what period of time. i was told that there is no obligation to unlock at all. they only thing ofcom suggests is that £30 would be a reasonable charge for the network to make to unlock.
 

quinney

macrumors member
Jul 22, 2007
55
0
I wonder if indeed there is a deficiency in the user licensing agreement,
if that is related in any way to the sudden departure of the Apple general
counsel.:confused:
 

Leo74

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2007
63
0
It sounds liike you may be interested in taking amoral stand against Apple but not ATT. That is fine, but as far as money goes, they probably have already pocketed any kind of share from your particular agreement with apple/Att.

Wow. A whole lot of assumptions from just a curious posting. I don't have an iPhone, neither do I have service with AT&T. I have a Blackberry with T-Mobile that I can freely install software into that has never, and I believe will never take down the T-Mobile network, and that does pretty much everything the iPhone does and more, except with less style. I'm a huge Apple fan, but I can deal with less style and more functionality to save $400. I'll get an iPhone one day, when that "more functionality" part no longer skews the balance toward what I have now. So, I'm not interested in taking any action against either Apple or AT&T.

Aren't we taking this Apple fandom a little bit too far, though? Now it's amoral to not want to use an iPhone? Even if I was interested in ceasing to use an iPhone in favor of a different device while fully honoring my contract, that would be amoral exactly how?
 

sibruk

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2007
501
0
UK+US
I wonder if indeed there is a deficiency in the user licensing agreement,
if that is related in any way to the sudden departure of the Apple general
counsel.:confused:
I doubt it - surely if any heads were going to roll, it'd be in Legal, not at a board/senior management level?
 

PowerFullMac

macrumors 601
Oct 16, 2006
4,000
1
I know that in Belgium its illegal to sell mobile phones that are locked to a single network. Needless to say we wont be seeing a official iPhone release in Belgium anytime soon.
 

sligo

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
12
0
Unlocking the phone against the end user agreement and hacking the phone to add some applications are two completely separate things. I'm all for application development and pushing what this phone can do. But unlocking the phone to use on other networks and then crying about how it no longer works is a bunch of baloney.

In your comparison, installing a new window manager on OSX is like installing a new application on the iphone.

However, unlocking an iphone to use on TMOBILE is like hacking OSX to run on non mac hardware.

Do you understand the difference? Should we all be suing Apple to allow to run OSX on any platform we want? MAC hardware is after all , just standard PC parts.

Hacking the phone to install third party apps may be against the end user agreement as well (depending on what that software does). so in the example you site, there is no difference in that scenario. you have violated the terms of service either way.

To answer your question specifically, If I bought OSX, I think I should be allowed to run it wherever I please. I dont expect apple to service me if I do so, but at the same time, I also expect them to stay out of my way. Obviously if i hack their product and then try to resell it, or even give it away for free, then they are incurring a loss, and they have every right and obligation to come after me. For my own personal use on the other hand, if I paid for the product, let it be mine. I am not leasing it. if i chose to pave my driveway with the CD's, then thats my choice. If I spend my time reverse engineering the bios so i can run it on my non proprietary hardware, then more power to me. Its mine, and I paid for it.

My point is that apple only stands to benefit from this community of users. they are not liable or responsible for users who violate the ToS, and their hardware product can be received by a larger market without apple violating any agreements it has with their partners. It is not in apples best interest to pursue litigation, or even purposefully causing unlocked phones to be disabled.
 

njpodder

macrumors regular
Sep 13, 2007
111
0
A free market doesn't grant unlimited rights to any company. Microsoft developed their software, sold it how they decided it should be sold, and have gotten their corporate asses slapped in court many a time for unfair business practices. The market has rules, and consumers have rights.



I'd agree with you there, but only to a certain extent. The issue is, I don't know if they are, and that's at least arguable, but if they're intentionally disabling phones as a way of retaliation instead of as an indirect result of necessary software updates, the courts will have to decide if that's fair or not. And since the only way to prove they're not in court might be with revealing their code, Apple themselves might decide it's not worth the fight.



You know, people love to say that, but lawsuits are part of a free market as well. The courts are there to be arbiters between two disagreeing partners. To the more powerless party of a dispute, they're invaluable in leveling the field (to the extent that the quality of the litigators can be dismissed) against a gigantic corporation. Consider the alternative, if courts weren't out there to decide who's right. Would you like that better? Do you think consumers would ever win if the free market was left to its own devices? Sometimes, consumers should own up to their practices, it's true. But many times corporations are the ones who should do so. And in the game of free market retaliation, Apple's power to hurt a single consumer with disabling a $600 device is much greater than that single consumer's power to hurt Apple, a multibillion dollar company, by deciding not to buy their products, and that's why the free market can't balance itself, so courts are needed. And also, this whole Americans in court thing isn't really fair either. I'm not American, and heck, I don't even own an iPhone. But it's the EU who has taken Microsoft to the courts time after time. And kudos to them for that.

I agree with you! We need a court system to decide what is fair, but it can get out of hand is all I was saying (I guess I was getting heated and off subject a little, mostly I get mad when people sue for things like "Eating McDonald's made me fat, etc. - Well yeah, fatty foods make people fat... DUH!)

But back to the subject of free market, Courts or no courts, Apple has made a product and decided what it's intended use was. They are within their rights to do that. Maybe that should be questioned, but I personally do not believe it should be. If I hurt myself at work becasue I am using a piece ofs afety equipment inproperly, guess what? It was my fault, not the company that made the safety device. That is called personal responsibility. Same issue here.

Now let's say that Apple IS bricking phones purposely (Which would be a very bad move for their reputation). That is their choice. They may piss off a lot of customers, but should they be legally allowed to do that? YES! I belive tha answer is yes, as long as it can be shown that the purpose of doing it was to discourage the alteration of their product or its intended use, which in this case, has already been addressed.

In even simpler, albeit perhaps a little immature, terms, let's for a moment say you start a lemonade stand, and sell glasses of fresh lemonade for 50 cents a glass. Well, some people come along and buy your lemonade, but find out that putting some kind of drug in there mixed with the amount of sugar you use in your lemonade makes for an amazing trip, high, whatever. Well, someone goes and gets themselves hurt or killed by doing this. Are you to blame? Hopefully, the laws and courts would protect your rights as well and say NO, it was not your fault that someone altered your recipe and damaged your product or themselves. I know that is a radical and kind of lame example, but it's the same thing. The law should protect the consumer, yes, but we also have to look out for the business. Apple has a right to protect the integrity of their product.

Basically, what that is saying is that if you purchase their product, then you should purchase their product as is. If you would like it to be better, in a free market economy, yo uare free to go out and make it better, but the law should protect Apple by saying you need to start from scratch so as not to underhandedly take their business and their product. How do we make the items better? Start with theirs and improve on it, that is why hacking is okay. But when you do that, be prepared to accept the risk that Apple might not be so supportive of you altering their design.
 

sligo

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
12
0
I know that in Belgium its illegal to sell mobile phones that are locked to a single network. Needless to say we wont be seeing a official iPhone release in Belgium anytime soon.


It is sad that we here in america are falling behind the rest of the world when it comes to personal liberty. The corporations are writing the rules here, and our consumer rights are casualties in the wayside.
 

Naimfan

Suspended
Jan 15, 2003
4,669
2,017
It is sad that we here in america are falling behind the rest of the world when it comes to personal liberty. The corporations are writing the rules here, and our consumer rights are casualties in the wayside.

Amen to that!
 

njpodder

macrumors regular
Sep 13, 2007
111
0
Wow. A whole lot of assumptions from just a curious posting. I don't have an iPhone, neither do I have service with AT&T. I have a Blackberry with T-Mobile that I can freely install software into that has never, and I believe will never take down the T-Mobile network, and that does pretty much everything the iPhone does and more, except with less style. I'm a huge Apple fan, but I can deal with less style and more functionality to save $400. I'll get an iPhone one day, when that "more functionality" part no longer skews the balance toward what I have now. So, I'm not interested in taking any action against either Apple or AT&T.

Aren't we taking this Apple fandom a little bit too far, though? Now it's amoral to not want to use an iPhone? Even if I was interested in ceasing to use an iPhone in favor of a different device while fully honoring my contract, that would be amoral exactly how?

Sorry Leo, I did not mean to assume anything, and I certainly meant no disrespect at all. Not even for a second. When you said "does their obligation to share revenue with Apple automatically cease," I incorrectly assumed you wre asking specifically about the obligation to share revenues between apple and att. My first thought was if someone decided they were angry with apple, maybe they would decide to brick their iPhone, buy a new phone on the same contract, and hope the revenue never made it to apple so they didn't contribute to their gross overall profit. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I really like how you are not buying an iPhone until you are happy with the device though. We need hackers and stuff to improve upon ideas, it keeps the market going and it makes sure Apple is keeping up with people's wants and needs. But yeah, that is one of my main points. If you don't like the iPhone, then don't buy it and then whine that Apple doesn't want you to hack it. Wish more of the Apple fans had the same opinion as you do.
 

Leo74

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2007
63
0
In even simpler, albeit perhaps a little immature, terms, let's for a moment say you start a lemonade stand, and sell glasses of fresh lemonade for 50 cents a glass. Well, some people come along and buy your lemonade, but find out that putting some kind of drug in there mixed with the amount of sugar you use in your lemonade makes for an amazing trip, high, whatever. Well, someone goes and gets themselves hurt or killed by doing this. Are you to blame? Hopefully, the laws and courts would protect your rights as well and say NO, it was not your fault that someone altered your recipe and damaged your product or themselves. I know that is a radical and kind of lame example, but it's the same thing. The law should protect the consumer, yes, but we also have to look out for the business. Apple has a right to protect the integrity of their product.

Sure, things like wanting a million dollars for burning your lips on hot coffee are always bad. I just got rear ended a week ago and I've had to answer many attorney calls since my police report went public who were legitimally sorry that I DIDN'T get hurt. Anyway...

To your other point, it's not really a good analogy. The correct analogy wouldn't be Apple trying to protect a victim of someone getting high off spiking your lemonade. There is no victim here, and if I had installed software on an iPhone to turn it into a taser, then yes, maybe. But the correct analogy here would be Apple selling you lemonade, then seeing you're having much more fun with it after spiking it with Bacardi 151 and then pouring sand on the lemonade so you couldn't drink it anymore.

That, and the fact their lemonade would have cost $28 a cup to begin with. But hey, the cup was real pretty. :)
 

sligo

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
12
0
I
[...]

In even simpler, albeit perhaps a little immature, terms, let's for a moment say you start a lemonade stand, and sell glasses of fresh lemonade for 50 cents a glass. Well, some people come along and buy your lemonade, but find out that putting some kind of drug in there mixed with the amount of sugar you use in your lemonade makes for an amazing trip, high, whatever. Well, someone goes and gets themselves hurt or killed by doing this. Are you to blame? Hopefully, the laws and courts would protect your rights as well and say NO, it was not your fault that someone altered your recipe and damaged your product or themselves. I know that is a radical and kind of lame example, but it's the same thing. The law should protect the consumer, yes, but we also have to look out for the business. Apple has a right to protect the integrity of their product.

[...]

I think rather than the lemonade stand example, use a real world worst case scenario. Someone messes with the firmware in the phone against the terms of service, and disables a safety feature that prevents the battery from overloading and exploding. Subsequently this hacked phone causes the death of its owner. Is apple responsible? I would say the terms of service protects apple in the same way that all manufacturers are protected when users violate the manufacturers warranty. But in our country as has been echoed in this forum anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason. I would think this would be an easy case for apple. So I hold by my assertion that it would be against apples best interest to prevent this type of hacking, and they should certainly not go out of their way to do so. In fact, as I stateds earlier, it would be in their best interest to "leak" the proper way to do it.
 

Leo74

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2007
63
0
Sorry Leo, I did not mean to assume anything, and I certainly meant no disrespect at all. Not even for a second. When you said "does their obligation to share revenue with Apple automatically cease," I incorrectly assumed you wre asking specifically about the obligation to share revenues between apple and att. My first thought was if someone decided they were angry with apple, maybe they would decide to brick their iPhone, buy a new phone on the same contract, and hope the revenue never made it to apple so they didn't contribute to their gross overall profit. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No harm done. I was starting to think I needed to go get a confession. :)
 

nagromme

macrumors G5
May 2, 2002
12,546
1,196
...
I have a Blackberry with T-Mobile that I can freely install software into that has never, and I believe will never take down the T-Mobile network, and that does pretty much everything the iPhone does and more, except with less style. I'm a huge Apple fan, but I can deal with less style and more functionality to save $400.
...

Just a couple notes of clarifcation:

* Blackberries have their undisputed merits, and are the perfect choice for some people. But no Blackberry has all the features of the iPhone: they have much smaller screens, no multitouch UI, no desktop-class auto-zooming web browser, no powerful OS X platform to build on, far less storage, less talk time, and yet are thicker to carry. They have a different kind of hard-to-use keyboard (no small keyboard is ideal) with the advantage of a familiar feel--coupled with various disadvantages compared to the iPhone's keyboard: no adaptability to different contexts, no tolerance for hitting multiple (tiny) keys at once, and no larger landscape typing mode. Those things aren't about style or fandom, they are major iPhone features that many people quite legitimately appreciate.

* iPhone costs less, not more, than a blackberry--by hundreds of dollars. Even before you add the cost of 8GB storage (pocket full of chips?) to a Blackberry. Any subsidies you get on a smart phone that appears to be cheaper you actually end up paying back every month.

Now, a Blackberry is STILL a better choice than an iPhone for people who need the Blackberry's features more than they need the iPhone's features, and are willing to pay the extra.

And a question:

How many times has your Blackberry been updated to give you new software features? And how major were they? This isn't the last time Apple will do so--they changed their accounting practices specifically to allow ongoing free software additions to the iPhone.
 

Leo74

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2007
63
0
I think rather than the lemonade stand example, use a real world worst case scenario. Someone messes with the firmware in the phone against the terms of service, and disables a safety feature that prevents the battery from overloading and exploding. Subsequently this hacked phone causes the death of its owner. Is apple responsible? I would say the terms of service protects apple in the same way that all manufacturers are protected when users violate the manufacturers warranty. But in our country as has been echoed in this forum anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason. I would think this would be an easy case for apple. So I hold by my assertion that it would be against apples best interest to prevent this type of hacking, and they should certainly not go out of their way to do so.

"One more thing: Let that be a lesson to you kids: if you hack your iPhone, it'll explode and you will die."

I kid, I kid... :)
 

sligo

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
12
0
[...]

But the correct analogy here would be Apple selling you lemonade, then seeing you're having much more fun with it after spiking it with Bacardi 151 and then pouring sand on the lemonade so you couldn't drink it anymore.

That, and the fact their lemonade would have cost $28 a cup to begin with. But hey, the cup was real pretty. :)

haha I vote that as the best post in this thread by far...
 

sphnx1988

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
1
0
I went to the Apple Store, and my phone was locked. The Apple Genius made me go to the ATT Store and get a new SIM Card. He Verified that the sim card worked, and asked me if i had installed any 3rd Party Apps. He went on to a bulitin posted by apple to check for a link for a package that will detect any non-apple files. Thank god the link was down. He replaced my phone!
 

sligo

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
12
0
"One more thing: Let that be a lesson to you kids: if you hack your iPhone, it'll explode and you will die."

I kid, I kid... :)

I am actually suprised that they havent played up that angle yet...
 

njpodder

macrumors regular
Sep 13, 2007
111
0
I think rather than the lemonade stand example, use a real world worst case scenario. Someone messes with the firmware in the phone against the terms of service, and disables a safety feature that prevents the battery from overloading and exploding. Subsequently this hacked phone causes the death of its owner. Is apple responsible? I would say the terms of service protects apple in the same way that all manufacturers are protected when users violate the manufacturers warranty. But in our country as has been echoed in this forum anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason. I would think this would be an easy case for apple. So I hold by my assertion that it would be against apples best interest to prevent this type of hacking, and they should certainly not go out of their way to do so. In fact, as I stateds earlier, it would be in their best interest to "leak" the proper way to do it.

yeah, I know my example was really lame, but yeah, I agree with you.

To use someone's earlier example, Sure Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, all these technology pioneers did it by building o nthe ideas of those that came before, but the successful ones did it with an understanding of the risk involved. That's how they made it as far as they did. They didn't whine, they acted.
 

Naimfan

Suspended
Jan 15, 2003
4,669
2,017
To njpoddder and Leo74--

Just thought I'd say bravo for your exchange above--where njpodder aplogizes and clarifies, and Leo74 graciously (and with a bit of wit!) accepts......

Strong work! (However strange that may sound......)
 

Crike .40

macrumors member
Aug 9, 2006
46
0
Oxnard Shores (Ventura), CA
If I had installed a set of wheels on my car that ran perfectly fine, but next time I brought the car to the dealership for a tuneup they disabled the car completely because they didn't like the wheels, I'd sure as hell sue.

my naive attempt to fix the analogy

You buy a "car" from the manufacturer, in which they tell you (license agreement) that you cannot "change the wheels" and still be covered under warranty.

You change the wheels anyway and the car continues to work (maybe even better than before).

Then, the car manufacturer releases an update in which a few new features are added, but here's the catch, you still have to be under warranty to get the upgrades.

Next, you decide you want the upgrades anyway and take the car into the manufacturer. The manufacturer says, up front, if you have changed your wheels there is a strong possiblity that your car will no longer work, and if you have changed those wheels you are no longer under warranty. Most importantly, they tell you: YOU DON'T HAVE TO UPDATE (you will simply not get the new features).

You decide to upgrade anyway, and guess what? The car stops working. Seems like they did their best to let you know what was happening.
 
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