Apple Geniuses are reportedly unbricking iPhones

[techyjoe]

Yes, thank goodness, someone who understands that Apple can't claim any warranty violation... because there is no software warranty!




Aye, the mod programmers have violated the disassembly portion. However, this does not necessarily apply to anyone who uses their mod code, since most users aren't capable of doing such violation.



Mild disagreement. I think Apple is hoping they don't get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I surmise a gentlemen's agreement: that because they gave a warning, the modders will not disclose that the changes were unnecessary.

;-)

Ahh, but don't forget, if an iPhone is bricked the hardware is still 100% functional. And Apple has the right to refuse a person use of Apple's software because the SLA has been violated. A bricked iPhone essentially just has malfunctioning software which apple has no obligation to fix if the SLA was violated.

Start developing open iphone firmware and iphone linux or just buy one of these http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html

 

[Sobe]

Good point.

People wanted an open iPhone, looks like they got it.

The problem was people wanted to piggy back their efforts on Apple's software.

Apple in their wisdom is actually supporting these open phone programmers, hackers, and unlockers, essentially forcing them to develop their own software for the hardware rather than just make it easy for them.

I think the entire hacker community should thank Apple for this "tough love" approach.

**tongue removed from cheek**

 

[zgh1999]

All this drama over a phone that is not even 3G.

This is a joke right?

 

[thomasfxlt]

I'm going to ignore the specific accusations of simple bitching (which I assure you, I'm not). I'm just quite surprised by the number of postings here which blindly take the side of one of the world's largest corporations without a moment's consideration for consumer rights. The prevalence of this attitude must surely be an American thing? I can tell you for sure that people won't be quite so "fanboy" about this in the UK when Apple release their product in the UK in a few weeks time. If they start pulling this "all your base are belong to us" attitude in the UK, rendering phones unusable and then not offering a way for people to restore to a situation where they could use the phone legally "in the way it was intended", there will be a major backlash from consumers in the UK.

You're quite right that I do not know what the law states in the USA, or the UK for that matter. I am not a lawyer. But I'm fairly sure that I can work out at which point I would be entering into any agreement or contract.

An interesting point... Do you actually accept any terms of a software licence when you open the iPhone or start using it? Are you at any point told you are entering into a licence? Eg. when you open a Windows/MacOS installer, you usually have to break a seal which says "by breaking this seal, you accept the terms...". Or you might have to accept the terms of a licence when you install a piece of software by clicking "I agree".

I have had various cell phones over the years and I don't at any point remember having to agree to any terms relating to the software that was pre-installed on the device. Sure, you'll often find in the warranty for the device that your warranty is null and void if you use the phone in a way that "it isn't designed for". But I'm specifically asking "do you accept a terms of use at any point?" Please tell me if you do. I don't know, I haven't seen an iPhone, let alone the packaging for one, yet.

The fact that OSX is installed on the iPhone is irrelevant if you don't actually have an opportunity to opt-in or opt-out of accepting any terms of an OSX licence. I don't even give it a second thought what OS is installed on my current cell phone. Most consumers wouldn't even know or be interested that the iPhone runs a version of OSX.

I don't own an iPhone yet. I will be getting one shortly after they are released in the UK. Yes, I will be using it with an official O2 tariff. I might install some third party applications on it but I will not be unlocking it. But I think the majority (yes, majority!) of owners in the UK in a few months time will be using the phone unlocked, if there is still a way of doing it through some software method in a few months time. The fact is that the majority of mobile phones in the UK are used on a "pay as you go" basis. IE. no monthly contract at all.

Yes, I agree that people who are in the know on these matters have been very silly to upgrade to the new 1.1.1 release without checking first that it wasn't going to cause problems with unlocked phones. I wouldn't have done it. But only because I know of the threats Apple has made over the last few weeks. I agree that Apple has been very reasonable about making the big bold text in the software update very prominent. But the fact is that a lot of people don't read anything at all in those onscreen dialogue boxes.

All I'm saying is that I think it would be reasonable of Apple to allow customers with unlocked and now useless iPhones to come into their stores to revert the phone to a usable state. OK, show their knuckles a ruler, make them feel a bit naughty, tut-tut at them... But surely it's got to be in Apple's interest to give customers who have spent $399 on a device an opportunity to use the device with an AT&T/O2 contract from that point on. I would be surprised if Apple would really want to leave that bitter a taste in so many customers' mouths.

I'm really sorry for the long post and thank you if you have spent the time to read it!

I think there are many of us that object to INFORMED consumers intentionally ignoring the rights of the manufacturer to limit the use of the device and then abusing warranty services which cost time and money to provide thus screwing the rest of us who play by the rules.

 

[kdarling]

I think there are many of us that object to INFORMED consumers intentionally ignoring the rights of the manufacturer to limit the use of the device and then abusing warranty services which cost time and money to provide thus screwing the rest of us who play by the rules.

The manufacturer also had the right to drop prices right away.

We saw how that turned out

Now, they have a more interesting "problem". Thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of phones are being sold overseas to people unlocking them. Obviously Apple never intended that to be out of the question, otherwise they'd not sell the phones to people without contracts.

 

[Naimfan]

Now, they have a more interesting "problem". Thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of phones are being sold overseas to people unlocking them. Obviously Apple never intended that to be out of the question, otherwise they'd not sell the phones to people without contracts.

Clearly Apple is under zero obligation of any sort to provide any support to those people overseas.......the term "assumption of the risk" comes to mind.

 

[sibruk]

Thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of phones are being sold overseas to people unlocking them. Obviously Apple never intended that to be out of the question, otherwise they'd not sell the phones to people without contracts.

Precisely. Everything Apple does, it does for a reason. There is a reason they don't make you sign the contract there in the store - they're happy to sell as many units of the iPhone to as many people that want to buy them. Apple is fully aware of the burgeoning hacker community out there. They are under obligation to nobody but the networks (AT&T and O2) to be seen to be "playing cat and mouse" with those who have unlocked their iPhone.

But when it comes down to the bottom line, they want as many units sold as possible. That's why they have to be reasonable to their user community and provide some method of restoring the broken $399 iPhones - officially or otherwise. I just hope there's more people out there that have gone into an Apple store and had help from staff than not.

The problem is, Apple has a conflict of interests here. On one hand, it needs to keep their partner networks happy. But I would argue that more important is keeping Apple customers happy. It is in the best interests of Apple as a corporation, and to all their shareholders, to keep customers happy (so that they come back for more in the future), avoid having the press writing bad articles and keep sales of devices as high as possible.

What's the betting AT&T will never release iPhone subscriber numbers so that they can't be compared with the official Apple sales numbers? I would really love to know how many iPhones as a percentage have not been activated through the official route. It's certainly going to take Apple a lot longer than 74 days to hit the 1 million mark in Europe if you are forced into using the official carrier from this point forward.

 

[sphnx1989]

To all of the people that are complaining about you not Authorizing Apple to Update your Firmware and "Bricking" Your Phone. There are numerous signs posted around the Genius Bar telling you of the Terms and Conditions of the Genius Bar Service, on the Online Concierge Site, and on the Back of the Work Order.

Pretty Much All of the People Arguing About Legalities, i'm pretty sure Apples Top Notch Counsel and Advisors Looked at the potential Legal issues and would of NOTIFIED (in bold letters) you when you updated the Firmware to 1.1.1. You rolled the dice and you crapped out. Your Arguments are Feudal.

 

[decadentdave]

Just a friendly FYI -

Corporate sent out an e-mail and is now TRACKING all bricked iphones that are being brought to the Genius Bar. They are recording the serial numbers and tracking all recorded phones on a DAILY basis. They are still telling the customers that they have violated the end-user agreement and have voided their warranty with Apple but YOU ARE BEING TRACKED! Just found this out today. The tracking went into effect beginning with the 1.1.1 update so anyone bringing it to the Genius Bar the Genies are discreetly recording your serial number before handing it back and saying "Sorry, we can't help you."

 

[Dfndr90]

Just a friendly FYI -

Corporate sent out an e-mail and is now TRACKING all bricked iphones that are being brought to the Genius Bar. They are recording the serial numbers and tracking all recorded phones on a DAILY basis. They are still telling the customers that they have violated the end-user agreement and have voided their warranty with Apple but YOU ARE BEING TRACKED! Just found this out today. The tracking went into effect beginning with the 1.1.1 update so anyone bringing it to the Genius Bar the Genies are discreetly recording your serial number before handing it back and saying "Sorry, we can't help you."

I have to call ******** to this. I bricked my iPhone, and took it to the Apple store, and walked out with a shiny new one. The genius's have no way of tracking who bricked their phone. I have the receipt to prove this as well my phone was dead on arrival to the bar for other reasons, mainy my feeble attempts to unbrick it. The genius at the bar, recorded my serial number had me sign a return form and I have had no issues since.

 

[decadentdave]

I have to call ******** to this. I bricked my iPhone, and took it to the Apple store, and walked out with a shiny new one. The genius's have no way of tracking who bricked their phone. I have the receipt to prove this as well my phone was dead on arrival to the bar for other reasons, mainy my feeble attempts to unbrick it. The genius at the bar, recorded my serial number had me sign a return form and I have had no issues since.

Well guess what, I work at Apple and I can tell you they ARE tracking these. In fact, we have turned away several customers bringing them to the bar because of bricking. I've read the e-mail from corporate instructing us to compile a spreadsheet of serial numbers to submit DAILY.

 

[techyjoe]

Well of course they're tracking all the hackers. When the FCC slaps apple with a fine because the hackers caused thousands of iPhones to fall out of FCC compliance, apple wants to know who to sue to recoup legal costs. Or maybe they are planning an ECM to disable these phones before the FCC comes after them. After all, one small modification to the baseband firmware can throw the phone out of compliance. This is a much bigger deal than most people think. When people start mucking around the firmware of a telecommunication device and violating FCC regulations who is the FCC to hold accountable. I'm sure they'll go after apple first. If i were apple i would send out an ECM and maybe leave the Firmware intact but wipe out OSX on the device. This way they can avoid the confusion as to whether the firmware is hardware or software, avoid warranty claims because only apple owns OSX, and still disable the device to avoid violation of FCC regulations.

 

[sibruk]

When the FCC slaps apple with a fine because the hackers caused thousands of iPhones to fall out of FCC compliance, apple wants to know who to sue to recoup legal costs. Or maybe they are planning an ECM to disable these phones before the FCC comes after them. After all, one small modification to the baseband firmware can throw the phone out of compliance. This is a much bigger deal than most people think. When people start mucking around the firmware of a telecommunication device and violating FCC regulations who is the FCC to hold accountable. I'm sure they'll go after apple first.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I think you are either spouting or are misinformed.

(a) Apple have sold a device which is FCC certified. If they were going to come after anyone, it would be the end user who has modified the device. Do the FCC go after the manufacturers of CB radios when their end users have modified the device to work outside of the legitimate radio frequencies? Do the FCC go after manufacturers of radio equipment parts that are used to broadcast pirate radio stations? As far as I was aware, they don't. If they're going to go after anyone, they'd go after the people who had modified the legitimate device to turn it into something illegal.

(b) I don't believe modifying the baseband firmware to work on a different cellular provider would change anything about the hardware specification of the device. People are modifying the locked-down software which is intentionally restricting network portability, nothing to do with the hardware specification. They're not even modifying the standardised radio/data protocols.

IMO, if Apple are indeed "keeping a database" of people who are presenting broken iPhones, it would make more sense for this information to be kept on record so that they can demonstrate that they've helped them fix their device once, that they've issued them a warning, and that they will not bail them out a second time.

DISCLOSURE: Before I get flamed, I'd like to point out that I don't work for Apple or the FCC. The above is opinion only and is not based on hard fact, but what I believe to be logic. sibruk does not own any Apple stock.

(Hey, can we sign off all our posts with a disclosure paragraph?! It would save a lot of time/flaming/people getting upset. )

 

[OllyW]

Well guess what, I work at Apple and I can tell you they ARE tracking these. In fact, we have turned away several customers bringing them to the bar because of bricking. I've read the e-mail from corporate instructing us to compile a spreadsheet of serial numbers to submit DAILY.

If you do work for Apple, you shouldn't be posting on here.

Just be careful your job doesn't get "bricked"

 

[techyjoe]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I think you are either spouting or are misinformed.

(a) Apple have sold a device which is FCC certified. If they were going to come after anyone, it would be the end user who has modified the device. Do the FCC go after the manufacturers of CB radios when their end users have modified the device to work outside of the legitimate radio frequencies? Do the FCC go after manufacturers of radio equipment parts that are used to broadcast pirate radio stations? As far as I was aware, they don't. If they're going to go after anyone, they'd go after the people who had modified the legitimate device to turn it into something illegal.

(b) I don't believe modifying the baseband firmware to work on a different cellular provider would change anything about the hardware specification of the device. People are modifying the locked-down software which is intentionally restricting network portability, nothing to do with the hardware specification. They're not even modifying the standardised radio/data protocols.

IMO, if Apple are indeed "keeping a database" of people who are presenting broken iPhones, it would make more sense for this information to be kept on record so that they can demonstrate that they've helped them fix their device once, that they've issued them a warning, and that they will not bail them out a second time.

DISCLOSURE: Before I get flamed, I'd like to point out that I don't work for Apple or the FCC. The above is opinion only and is not based on hard fact, but what I believe to be logic. sibruk does not own any Apple stock.

(Hey, can we sign off all our posts with a disclosure paragraph?! It would save a lot of time/flaming/people getting upset. )

With all due respect, you are assuming the FCC is capable of determining the cause of such noncompliance of a closed device. Did apple provide debugging tools to the FCC? Do you think the FCC feels it's their responsibility to differentiate between hacked and non-hacked phones? They will go to Apple first demanding answers.

Your also assuming that the baseband firmware doesn't contain any transmission parameters.

Also, did you ever stop to think about how much money all these hacks and unlocks are costing apple. Do you really think the iPhone R&D, Logistics and Manufacturing costs equate to a mere $400 per device. They dropped the price point as a gesture of good will to the consumer, expecting to recoup the losses with their share from AT&T. It's the same situation as game consoles. The manufacturers sell the console for less than the R&D and manufacturing costs, and relies on game sales to compensate for these losses.

 

[sibruk]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. AFAIK, there has been nothing to suggest that hacking an iPhone to work on another cellular provider "breaks" the iPhone in such a way that it would no longer conform to the FCC certification. Either way, Apple would not be responsible for it.

You have Nokia currently screaming on about how their devices are so "open" and OpenMoko have recently released a device which is designed specifically for developers and hackers to do what they want with it. Both have FCC certification and neither company seems to have the FCC chasing them over anything their end users have done.

And the only reason Apple has slashed the price on the iPhone 'in time for the holiday season' is because they want to sell X number of million units - absolutely nothing to do with good will. They realised that they weren't going to shift as many as they had hoped with such a high price point. And that is how they will recoup R&D and other miscellaneous costs. Have you read how much it costs for Apple to manufacture an iPod these days?! Truth is that Apple would have sold/will now sell a tiny fraction of the units if they lock it up so much that users must be tied to a contract with such a limited choice of suppliers.

 

[marksman]

Reading that linked article from the first page, I see it to be the author's erroneous opinion on that particular law. Apple is not the first company to void a warranty based on modifications. It is not uncommon. Car manufacturers do it every single day. Even if the modification did not directly cause the issue, it potentially could have, or at least contributed.

I don't think there is ANY foundation here for a successful law suit taking this approach. They can set the terms for their warranty.

 

[marksman]

Apple must surely have to release a restore utility - or be sued - and lose. Do they make you sign a contract when you purchase the device in store? I wasn't aware they did. I thought the contract and terms of use started when you activated the phone.

Surely they've got to allow you to restore the device to how it was when you left the store (and before you entered into any terms of use contract)? They surely have to give you the opportunity to use the device "as it was intended".

Why? When you did something to alter how the device works and is used. Why would they be under any obligation to provide a way for you to restore it. If you did not mess with it in the first place, there would not be an issue. They are not obligated to do that.

 

[sibruk]

Why? When you did something to alter how the device works and is used. Why would they be under any obligation to provide a way for you to restore it. If you did not mess with it in the first place, there would not be an issue. They are not obligated to do that.

Marksman, I think you might be in the process of reading this thread through. Please see my further elucidation in Posts #139 and #157.

 

[marksman]

Sure, things like wanting a million dollars for burning your lips on hot coffee are always bad. I just got rear ended a week ago and I've had to answer many attorney calls since my police report went public who were legitimally sorry that I DIDN'T get hurt. Anyway...

To your other point, it's not really a good analogy. The correct analogy wouldn't be Apple trying to protect a victim of someone getting high off spiking your lemonade. There is no victim here, and if I had installed software on an iPhone to turn it into a taser, then yes, maybe. But the correct analogy here would be Apple selling you lemonade, then seeing you're having much more fun with it after spiking it with Bacardi 151 and then pouring sand on the lemonade so you couldn't drink it anymore.

That, and the fact their lemonade would have cost $28 a cup to begin with. But hey, the cup was real pretty.

That analogy is innacurate. It would be more like Apple selling you lemonade powder so you can make lemonade. You mix up your lemonade and start pouring in the 151. At some point Apple changes their formula of mixture, and now when it mixes with 151, it turns the lemonade brown and makes it smell very much like vomit.

If you use the lemonade powder as intended, you will have sweet tasting lemonade. You choose to mix in the rum, you realize that your actions are causing it to turn to vomit smell.

 

[marksman]

So, hacking automatically absolves Apple of liability for any and all defects that existed prior to modification?

Feel free to challenge that in court, but that would be the net result.

You voided the warranty on the device when you modified it. They are no longer obligated to do anything at all for you.

It is not insane. It is entirely reasonable. What would be insane would be a marketplace where people could go around breaking their own stuff negligently and then requiring the companies to just replace them all for free.

I agree with a previous comment, your actions are very close to fraud in this particular case.

 

[njpodder]

This is a very amusing thread.

 

[Naimfan]

This is a very amusing thread.

You can say that again!

 

[sibruk]

This is a very amusing thread.

Tell me about it - there are some people here that think a huge, dripping-in-money corporation needs defending! Hilarious!

 

[decadentdave]

If you do work for Apple, you shouldn't be posting on here.

Just be careful your job doesn't get "bricked"

First, I agree with Apple's position that you are in violation of the terms of the user agreement. That said I have a big problem with them keeping tabs on who's been naughty and who's been nice. That is an invasion of privacy and people have a right to know when "big brother" is watching them. Heck, I've hacked my own phone and know the risks but that should be my choice. You break it it's not Apple's problem. You violated the terms now go away but keeping lists of serialized numbers that are being tracked to personal account information is crossing the line on their end and I don't agree with that.