Apple Has 'Lost Sight of the Tech Industry's Founding Principles,' Says Epic Games CEO

[femike]

Epic talks about 'principles' 😂😂 They know and everybody else knows it's all about the money.

 

[Ethosik]

Epic are going to fight until they can expand their toxic game store to iOS. Probably poach as many games as they can from the AppStore with exclusive deals and leave those that bought them or preordered high and dry once again as they have done with many games on Steam. Anno 1802 being one of them.

I know what they want. I have been down this road before with the Epic Store on PC. If Epic wins this fight, expect some popular iOS apps to be Epic Store exclusives - just like what Epic did for Metro and Borderlands 3.

 

[midg8]

I’ve been seeing/reading all this stuff on anti-competitive behavior on Apple’s part but still can’t get past some of it.

Apple designs a phone and an os to go on that phone. Then they made the API available to developers and opened the App Store for the developers to sell/give away their apps. For the App Store they outlined the requirements and guidelines which everyone wanting to use to follow.

things I don’t understand and would like someone to help me understand:
1. When did Apple ever stop someone else from designing their own phone and an OS to go on that phone?
2. People say they have no option but to comply with Apple and their rules. Is this not the same as me wanting to sell something at a store like Walmart and following Walmart’s requirements?
3. if people don’t agree to not being able to side load app/games on an iOS device, should they not be using a device that allows them this option? I’ve decided to use an iPhone knowing I can’t do that and if I want to then I have a slew of android devices I can pick from.

not trying to start anything. Just trying to understand. We all make decisions based on what works best for us.

 

[Ethosik]

I find it interesting that people appear to disparage Epic for wanting their own App Store. Of course they do. Competition is healthy.

What's good for Epic here is also good for the consumer - look at the PC gaming space.

Secondly, this isn't the same as consoles. A console is limited and specific hardware, whereas phones are general computing devices and central to daily life in the modern era.

You could cope fine. without an Xbox, but would struggle without a phone

No not necessarily. Epic Games on Windows was NOT good for the consumer. I was not able to get Borderlands 3 or Metro on Steam when they launched. Or Satisfactory too.

FYI due to all of this Epic madness, I re-purchased Borderlands 3, Metro and Satisfactory on Steam so I never need to install Epic Store again.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Secondly, this isn't the same as consoles. A console is limited and specific hardware, whereas phones are general computing devices and central to daily life in the modern era.

You could cope fine. without an Xbox, but would struggle without a phone

That's a stupid argument IMO.

What makes a phone "essential"? Emergency communication. That's all. You are 100% free to make phone calls incase of an emergency. Apple doesn't limit phone calls at all. Everything else is recreational. Fortnite is just as useless on an xbox than it is on the iPhone.

You certainly can live with an iPhone without ever launching the App Store. You might have a case if you can argue the App Store is essential, but so far, all third party apps are completely optional to the core functionality of the phone.

 

[WiseAJ]

This is literally my favourite reply.....

View attachment 951857


Say what now?

$0.89 is 30% which would be what Apple gets. Did the developer mistype that tweet or are they implying that they only get 30% after Apple and Taxes?

 

[Ethosik]

Oh cry me a river, Apple pays for the development of their APIs and tools... what a shock. The same APIs and tools required for iOS to even exist and operate, which is required to sell their own product. Bet your phone would work amazing without any graphics APIs to display icons or text on the screen, or connect to the network or play audio.

I'm so tired of people acting like us iPhone and Mac users haven't paid for the development of the platforms we use many times over.

The cost of the iPhone includes R&D for the A series processors, design of the iPhone, construction, marketing and more. The App Store pays for the iOS apps infrastructure, APIs, developer programs, marketing from Apple themselves, employees you can contact if there is a problem with an app, employees you can contact if there is a problem with payments.

 

[Ethosik]

"'And finally, creators have rights. The right to build apps, share them with users directly, and do business directly, without being herded through a single centrally planned, anti-competitive store."

Sure they have rights, like the right not to do business with Apple if they don't agree with the company's policies. Apple, too, has rights, like the right to pull you from their platform if you violate policies you agreed to when you entered into contract with them. This is stupid. Epic is just being greedy and not wanting to pay Apple a fair price for exposing their apps to 500 million users. Don't like what Apple charges? Don't do business with them. That is 100% your right. Now, go piss off, Epic.

Be careful saying contracts on this site! There are people that state a contract cannot be enforced without court's approval which is completely false.

 

[Ethosik]

definitely with Epic on this one

30% is huge
The app store sucks for app discovery
The walled garden of iOS isn't a feature

Compared to what? Playstation? Xbox? Steam? They are all 30%. How is 30% huge if nearly the entire industry is 30%? I would agree if Playstation, Xbox, Steam took 15%, but they ALL take 30%.

 

[Ethosik]

Why the heck is Epic Games pulling so much attention? It's just a gaming company. No one would die if it disappeared tomorrow. Are real adults actually defending the right to play Fortnite on iOS? When compared to the size and scope of the App Store, Epic Games honestly doesn't seem all that important. Fortnite is just a freaking game. It's not even something useful like Photoshop or Final Cut Pro. Why aren't the whiners and anti-trust people going after the pharmaceutical companies who overcharge for medication for critically-ill patients? Apparently, drug companies can charge whatever they want for medicine, but Apple can't charge a 30% fee for a game without involving the courts. It's a crazy world.

Also we need to go after real monopolies, like Spectrum Internet where I live. That is the only high speed internet available. With how critical internet is even for applying for jobs and especially now working from home, if my internet has problems I cannot go elsewhere!

 

[Seend1983]

Hear hear! This is nothing more than laughable posturing by Apple. They know they have a monopoly on app distribution and are doing everything they can to avoid being called to account over it. The dominoes are falling.

yeah how dare a company has monopoly over its OWN platform???

the nerve!!!!!!!!!!!

/s

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Tim Sweeney says, ”We are fighting for change!”

Sounds to me like Epic are fighting to assure their place in history alongside the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation:

With thanks to the immortal Douglas Adams.

 

[nylonsteel]

"..."nothing more than a basic disagreement over money"..."
dude - money makes the world go round

 

[Ethosik]

If someone tells me they're doing something for the principal of it, because it's the right thing to do, they probably shouldn't begin by breaking the rules and violating their contract. In my opinion you can't fight your crusade for good when you're starting from a morally bankrupt position. Had they not broken any rules first, I might have taken them more seriously. But don't break the rules and tell me that makes you the good guy. That's going to be a very hard sell.

I've always had a soft spot for Epic. I remember defending them in some newsgroup way back in the early '90s. Somehow Mark Rein saw my post and reached out to me directly and even gave me a free game (Jill of the Jungle). This was prior to Unreal back when they were doing side-scrollers. Sad to see how time and piles of money have changed things.

I agree. Not only that, Epic knew what would happen when they broke the contract as they had lawsuits and videos ready beforehand.

I also have defended Epic in the past. Back with Metro and Borderlands 3 were Epic Store exclusives, I defended them as taking on a behemoth of Steam I felt they did what they had to do. Now I never want to install Epic Games Store again, I purchased Metro and Borderlands AGAIN on Steam so I never need to install Epic.

 

[Realityck]

Posted yesterday

Tim Sweeney. Sep 9
And finally, creators have rights. The right to build apps, share them with users directly, and do business directly, without being herded through a single centrally planned, anti-competitive store.

So software creators have rights, to build apps, but where does the right to market them with users directly and do business directly come from?

If someone could win a case that allowed any developer to ignore any computer marketplace rules entirely, what's the point of even creating that marketplace?

 

[Ethosik]

It's quite comical that I have to keep bringing this up but since seemingly nobody here can answer it I'll post it again.

Don't think Apple has a monopoly?

1. Where can I get games for Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung devices?

2. Where can I get games for iOS devices?

You are making the market too narrow.

This is like saying "Where can I get Kirkland products?" As been stated before in several of these articles, a company does not have a monopoly on something they themselves provide.

You can make everything a monopoly if you make the market narrow enough. Its not "iOS Apps" its Mobile Apps.

Where can you get Mobile Apps - Android and iOS. No monopoly.

Does an Xbox have a monopoly on Xbox games? Even if I want to sell physical copies, I still need to pay Microsoft.

 

[mannyvel]

Be careful saying contracts on this site! There are people that state a contract cannot be enforced without court's approval which is completely false.

Contract law is a history of the various ways companies enforce and break contracts. The courts are required to force a party to adhere to their side of the contract if they are refusing to do so, which isn’t quite what you were saying.

 

[bushman4]

Epic talks about 'principles' 😂😂 They know and everybody else knows it's all about the money.

Point we’ll taken and true! Epic built an Empire thanks to Apples Customers and now they are sticking it to the Customer because of the greed

 

[Ethosik]

Contract law is a history of the various ways companies enforce and break contracts. The courts are required to force a party to adhere to their side of the contract if they are refusing to do so, which isn’t quite what you were saying.

Yes there are people that are arguing that a contract cannot be enforceable at all without a court decision. That is simply false. I have had many contracts enforced on me without courts saying so. I have known people that broke non-compete contracts and they were fired without the courts being involved. A contract can be enforceable without courts.

 

[TiggrToo]

I hope Epic win and can get their own App Store on IOS and Android. They've down wonders for the PC Market and undercut Steam. Games are cheaper and you get a couple of games free every 2 weeks (Some that cost a lot on other platforms and stores). There isn't even a paid subscription on their store. If Epic can make better competition and drive prices down wether its 1%, 10%, 20%, 30% etc its better for all consumers......i cant complain. Epic need to make an epic android phone too already.

Nothing stopping Epic having a store on Android.

In, fact there’s never been anything to stop them doing that. Yet they haven’t.

In all your pro Epic complaining did you not stop to think about that?

 

[auwkeung]

App Store is Apple's department store, if u gonna sell things inside, u give certain amount of proportion of your sales to them. It easy as it gets, and it has been such for as long as I could remember

 

[demodave]

what such bull **** Epic, its over Money that you want. you want to be able to sell a product at Walmart and for Walmart to get no money from it. or even worse setup your OWN shop in a Walmart and they get nothing for it

Speaking of Walmart:

Gross Profit Margin For Walmart Inc. (WMT)

Walmart's latest twelve months gross profit margin is 25.0%... View Walmart Inc.'s Gross Profit Margin trends, charts, and more.

finbox.com

Walmart's gross profit margin is right around 25%. Considering that they incur costs to stock their shelves, empty their shelves occasionally, check on produce, ship stuff, etc., they are surely selling their wares at a cost more than 30% higher than what they pay their suppliers. So obviously, Apple's 30%, reduced to 15% for recurring business, is totally unreasonable </sarc>. Apple does incur expenses to earn that 15 or 30%, so that is not gross profit margin.

I feel no sympathy for Epic.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

That sounds like a parenting problem, not an Epic problem.

Can’t it be both?

 

[Abazigal]

Apple is winning the war for control over iOS | Mobile Dev Memo by Eric Seufert

Apple is winning the war for control over iOS. Mobile marketing and advertising, freemium monetization strategy, and marketing science. Mobile Dev Memo.

mobiledevmemo.com

But if Epic loses, the consequences will be dire for the entire app ecosystem. Apple will feel emboldened by its victory and will rigidly defend its practices. Perestroika will end; Apple will have no incentive to make concessions to developers because its legal victory will stand as a symbol of its unassailable authority on iOS. Epic’s reckless gamble is bad for the app economy.

Epic will lose the legal battle, and with it, any chances developers may have had of Apple lowering their 30% cut.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

It's quite comical that I have to keep bringing this up but since seemingly nobody here can answer it I'll post it again.

Don't think Apple has a monopoly?

1. Where can I get games for Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung devices?

2. Where can I get games for iOS devices?

I already answered your question for you in a previous thread.

You: Answer me this!
Me: Answers question.
You: <sticks fingers in ears> La la la la la… I can’t hear you!