Apple Has 'Lost Sight of the Tech Industry's Founding Principles,' Says Epic Games CEO

[miric]

Epic Games has f**ed up.

 

[vtrautia]

Mobile app industry kind of suck. You have to pay google or apple tax if you want your app on mobile. Mac or pc platform there is alternative to windows or mac appstore and therefore more innovation and lower prices.

 

[m11rphy]

Mobile developer here.
It's astounding how many people do not get Tim Sweeney and where he's coming from, assuming everything just has to be about the money. It doesn't. He just doesn't want a future where every computing device (mobile or not) is a ****ing walled garden with the gatekeeper taking 30% of sales for eternity (1.5 billions per month currently for the app store !), also dictating rules on what is allowed to run and what is not. He considers consoles as a special case as they are sold at a loss and the manufacturer makes up for it with games sales, although do not believe a minute that Epic is paying 30% to Sony and Microsoft and you can bet they have negotiated something better.
Also Epic is taking only 12% on the Epic Game Store (on PC) for not hammering game developers whose life is already difficult. They are a game developer, thus know the difficulties of that industry.
It's easy to hate on Epic but people are really missing the point... Maybe the day Apple Silicon devices are locked to hell iOS style, people will start to understand.

As a mobile developer if Epic gets it own store and only charges you 12$ will you be lower the price of you app/s?

 

[m11rphy]

Because no games are selling on PC maybe... ? That well known walled garden with Steam, EGS, GOG, direct purchase on the web, and more.

He was replying to a mobile developer not a PC developer. Im sure he has far more customers thanks to apple than he would of got from the Nintendo DS or PSP

 

[genovelle]

I find it interesting that people appear to disparage Epic for wanting their own App Store. Of course they do. Competition is healthy.

What's good for Epic here is also good for the consumer - look at the PC gaming space.

Secondly, this isn't the same as consoles. A console is limited and specific hardware, whereas phones are general computing devices and central to daily life in the modern era.

You could cope fine. without an Xbox, but would struggle without a phone

It’s a phone. They did not have to even create an App Store. In fact they started with just web apps. If Apple had not built and continued to invest in the platform, it would not exist. Consoles we charging 70% when Apple started the store. There are hundreds of other phone brands you can get if you don’t like believe Apple deserves a cut.

 

[the8thark]

Epic: We are fighting for change!

Fighting for everyone else except ourselves to change.

 

[Naraxus]

Hear hear! This is nothing more than laughable posturing by Apple. They know they have a monopoly on app distribution and are doing everything they can to avoid being called to account over it. The dominoes are falling.

 

[the8thark]

The Miranda Rights

“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.”

Even the average person who is arrested knows to keep their mouth shut and only speak when instructed to do so by their lawyer. It seems Tim Sweeny doesn't understand this. Sure he's not being arrested, but what he is saying now, all these dumb statements will be used against him and epic in court.

 

[m11rphy]

Hear hear! This is nothing more than laughable posturing by Apple. They know they have a monopoly on app distribution and are doing everything they can to avoid being called to account over it. The dominoes are falling.

Monopoly on App distribution? Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung all have stores and you think apples is bigger than all those combined? I think not

 

[the8thark]

Enough of this nonsense. Is there a way to block further updates on this story? (Perhaps by tag?). And yes, I know, I don't have to click on it, but it's on the front page every damn day.

If this was a thing I'd use it to block all the advertising articles on the front page. This doesn't exist though.

 

[NT1440]

Silicon Valley was built upon military projects and surveillance technology, it would be nice if that wasn’t the core DNA of the Google’s and Facebooks. Epic can suck it with this drivel.

 

[duervo]

Apple killed Epic's dev account, which means no access to the tools the Unreal Engine requires if they want to develop for OS X. So even if this is about disputes over the iOS App Store, Epic can't update the OS X version if they don't have functional tools

Important to note that the only dev account affected is Epic's account; Unreal itself doesn't necessarily stop working, and other devs who make games with Unreal aren't affected by whatever Epic did to themselves

Not quite. XCode does not require a paid Apple Developer account to use it. You don’t even need a free account to download it (just a regular Apple ID.) You don’t lose the ability to continue to use Xcode if you lose your Apple Developer account.

You do require a paid account if you want to distribute your app on the Mac App Store. However, Epic Games does not distribute Fortnite on macOS through the Mac App Store. Their users download and install the Epic Games Launcher, from the Epic Games website, and then use that to install (and update) it.

If Fortnite is no longer being updated on macOS, then it’s more likely that this is a conscious choice made by Epic Games.

 

[ggibson913]

Here's the issue...what Apple is doing is in no way ILLEGAL. All you are saying, is - I don't like it. That is far different than "What they are doing is illegal." It passes not one test for being a monopoly unless you consider the words an author chooses to put in a book a monopoly. You can say, "I don't like that Apple does this." An then go buy a different phone. All of this drama is made-up and supported by companies like Epic that are just fighting a business fight. And they are clouding the issues trying to make it look like a legal issue. Think about what you are actually saying - in real terms, in the reality of business and you will easily see a million contradictions. What you should say is "I don't like how they are running this, I will choose a different platform." There is NO legal case here anymore than me being angry with what supplier LG uses for the glass in their TV set. I want to add that consumers can and do vote with what they buy. If iPhone becomes unprofitable, Apple can consider ways to change their business plan. That's how the market should work if you embrace a capitalist market driven economy.

I mean they can buy an Android phone but if they develop for Android they take the same 30%.

 

[Naraxus]

Monopoly on App distribution? Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung all have stores and you think apples is bigger than all those combined? I think not

It's quite comical that I have to keep bringing this up but since seemingly nobody here can answer it I'll post it again.

Don't think Apple has a monopoly?

1. Where can I get games for Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung devices?

2. Where can I get games for iOS devices?

 

[I7guy]

It's quite comical that I have to keep bringing this up but since seemingly nobody here can answer it I'll post it again.

Don't think Apple has a monopoly?

1. Where can I get games for Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung devices?

2. Where can I get games for iOS devices?

You're asking the wrong questions, which lead to an incorrect conclusions. (which is seemingly a question for the courts to deal with)

Maybe the question should be simply:

1. Where can I get games? Answer google, sony, microsoft, nintendo, Samsung, iphone.

Nobody knows if the question to be asked is in the format of #2 above or my #1. Thus far, the question is my #1.

 

[LeeW]

This is backfiring on Epic, everywhere I go and see this being mentioned all I am reading is players turning against Epic for removing their ability to play the game, not turning against Apple for their App store policies which I suspect is what Epic wanted. Goes to show that there is not a lot of interest in how unfair Apple is if you believe they are.

 

[lazyrighteye]

If Epic Games' true motivation was to try and enact actual App Store policy change, there was literally every other way to go about doing so than the one they chose.

 

[m11rphy]

It's quite comical that I have to keep bringing this up but since seemingly nobody here can answer it I'll post it again.

Don't think Apple has a monopoly?

1. Where can I get games for Google, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung devices?

2. Where can I get games for iOS devices?

1. You said App Distribution, not iOS apps
2. regardless of if you buy games From Sony / Microsoft/ Nintendo App Store or physically in Best Buy or Walmart, Sony / Microsoft/ Nintendo will take 30% so if apple has a monopoly so does all these other companies

 

[Manzanito]

Am I the only one bored with this thing?

 

[Realityck]

The rights of users and creators are the FOUNDATION of this dispute. Money is several layers removed, as the medium of exchange between users who choose to buy digital items, and the creators who made them. Epic isn't even seeking monetary damages. We are fighting for change!

This news started out with the App Store commission being too high only to show how EPIC's owner has sunk so low to harm the entire user community that used their games. To what gain?

 

[ScottHammet]

I find it interesting that people appear to disparage Epic for wanting their own App Store. Of course they do. Competition is healthy.

What's good for Epic here is also good for the consumer - look at the PC gaming space.

Secondly, this isn't the same as consoles. A console is limited and specific hardware, whereas phones are general computing devices and central to daily life in the modern era.

You could cope fine. without an Xbox, but would struggle without a phone

I think what it comes down to, is who are you going to trust to police what's in the code that you're downloading to your iOS device? Is that Apple, or Epic? Apple's position is that they're in a better position to protect customers by providing a uniform set of standards that all developers must meet. Epic just wants to exploit the platform and customer base that Apple has built--emphasis on exploit. For me, I want the highest level of trust possible that there aren't backdoors in the code I'm downloading, and for my POV, that trust is on Apple.

 

[kingfish78]

Doesn't take a genius to understand what he's saying. All platforms that did well in the 80s and 90s had free and open environments for development. If you paid for the tools, you could write your software and distribute it however you chose, with no editorial or gatekeeping functions. DOS/Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux, Apple II, they all were built on these "founding principles". Outside of consoles which was a subsidized business model with a select few blessed offerings in software, "walled gardens" is a 2005+ phenomenon. Its hard not to call a product with over 1 million apps anything but a general purpose computer.

Yes, because that model of profit from hardware only worked out so well for those PC companies of the 80's and 90's... In the 90's Apple ALMOST went under. IBM sold off it's PC business for pennies on the dollar. Compaq gone. Gateway gone. eMachines gone. Tandy gone. Acer barely around except for their cheap junk. The few that have survived have diversified into additional areas, like HP with printers (who are now shopping their PC line to sell again), or Dell with monitors.

The companies that have been successful like Apple, Microsoft, and Google are all software AND hardware vendors offering a range of streamlined experiences that integrate the OS with the hardware. It's hard to argue that the best implementation of Android isn't on Google's own devices, or that the Surface Pro is the best way to experience Windows 10, or that the iOS works brilliantly on the iPhone.

US and International laws require competition - the question that has to be answered by the court is whether the sale of competing devices warrants the competitive level or whether the hardware manufactures are required to "open" their platforms to allow free (literally not-compensated) access to anyone for any reason.

Because of the "slippery slope" principle that is applied in the legal system, I expect that you'll see the device itself be the point of competition. The slippery slope of requiring a manufacturer to open their device to competing App Stores is... why stop with the App Store? It's literally just software code for a program (albeit a program that facilitates access to purchase other software programs). Why not require the hardware vendor to open its hardware to run another OS? Why do I have to use iOS if I want an iPhone? Why not require Apple to allow Android OS to be installed? In this vein, the slippery slope would back the courts to consider the hardware + OS as the point of competition.

This was very similar to the case against Microsoft. Windows wasn't a monopoly, because Apple existed with MacOS as competition. (This made the decision for Bill Gates to support MacOS with Office and an indirect influx of cash an easy call.) What was anti-competitive was the forced integration of specific software through integration in the OS. Competing programs couldn't easily be set as defaults, and Microsoft used its market position to stifle completion by limiting access to the competing products from being included as "pack-ins."

If the regulators/courts determine that the App Store should not be the only source of software distribution on the hardware/OS, they are not likely to determine that the creators of the OS are not entitled to some compensation. At which point the 30% could still be validated, and sales through the Epic game store could still be subject to the payment.

 

[roy_g_biv]

>then they've lost all sight of the tech industry's founding principles

That's rich coming from Epic. Literally Laughed Out Loud.

>He then reiterated some of the rationale behind why Epic Games began the campaign against Apple's ‌App Store‌ policies, stating that "creators have rights."

I mean, Apple did create the iPhone, iOS and the app store 🤷‍♂️

 

[kingfish78]

Mobile app industry kind of suck. You have to pay google or apple tax if you want your app on mobile. Mac or pc platform there is alternative to windows or mac appstore and therefore more innovation and lower prices.

Epic V-Bucks literally cost exactly the same whether on a phone or a PC. Pro-level mobile apps are also typically viewed as extensions of the PC/Mac product and are free with license to the desktop version (Autodesk, MS Office, Adobe, etc.) and those desktop versions can cost thousands per license.

 

[justperry]

Such a popcorn thread, especially reading the first page.

Nuff said.