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We were discussing the iPad-only perspective in b-to-b, which depends on dynamics between end-users and IT-staff more than individual purchase plans - in particular for phones
Like 99.8% customer satisfaction doesn’t solve warrantee regulation problems
(or I must be lying again...)

"Business buyers" implies corporate purchase by IT departments (e.g. company issued phones).

Once these IT departments are using MDM (Mobile Device Management) tools to install profiles on iPhones, they have the tools in place to manage iPads and Macs.
 
That is part of our difference. We have a couple of token Macs in Package Engineering. Everything else is either Linux or Windows 7/10.

We looked at switching most of our users to Macs about five years ago. For most of our users, platform doesn’t really matter as long as they have Office. Our CAD guys and accounting team were never going to switch, but the rest of the office could use Macs. In the end we decided not to go through with it and have now pretty much replaced all Macs. All new portable devices have been Surface laptops. Our custom FileMaker app runs on all platforms and the 12” iPad Pro has been the go-to device for our field employees.
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You're in denial of a new generation that grew up with touch UX who found out that (despite what T. Cook thinks) they need something more versatile than iPad when it comes to making tests, classroom excercises, reports, that need multi-windowing and true multi-tasking. At the same time, they won't give up touch UX (and why should they, despite what Ph. Schiller thinks)

I think you're in denial. Touchscreen laptops have been around for a long time and they've never really caught on in a meaningful way. Microsoft is doing good work with Surface, but there's no evidence that the masses really want a hybrid device. Some people like them. Other people don't.

Now arguments by Apple and denials like yours can't stop this evolution in the market that, ironically, became induced by Apple itself.

I'm not denying anything. I'm just stating why I don't think Apple will add mouse/trackpad support to the iPad.

Sadly, its inability of disruptive innovation (the inflexible, moloch mass-provisioner that Apple has become got primarily targeted to milking existing product categories) or either lamentary/coward conduct by upper management have made them a runner-up in anything but the iDevice category - unable to take the next courageous step.

Good lord, I don't even know where to begin with that one. The iDevice category, that measly little category that generates billions upon billions of dollars in sales, that nothing little category that is bigger than almost every other US company in value?

Apple was always a runner-up when it came to desktop computers. They completely ceded that market to Windows years ago and aren't looking back.

Isn't the Apple Watch a new category? Aren't they dominating wearables and watch industry?

And what courageous next step should they take? Please enlighten us. What other company has taken that courageous next step and how is that working out for them?

Unwilling or unable to risk either current iPad or MacBook sales, they are in denial of this evolution, which has already lead them to losing K12/education markets to Chromebooks and Google server-based classroom solutions. Because iPad doesn't fit in there, technically nor financially.

What evolution? Apple sells far more iPads in one quarter than Microsoft sells SurfaceBooks in a year. As for the education market, Apple hasn't really been the dominant player in that arena since the Apple II days. I agree that they aren't a strong presence in education these days, but that has nothing to do with the Surface and hybrid devices.

If you're looking for a reason why that denial doesn't land: it is not that people refuse to hear it, but merely the limited credibility of Apple's product strategy and those who defend it:

What is wrong with Apple's product strategy? I mean, it's made them hundreds of billions of dollars in profit, created a lucrative marketplace for third party developers, sold hundreds of millions of devices per year, year after year, created hundreds of thousands of jobs around the world, etc. You might not like the devices. You might not be their target customer. But it's pretty hard to argue that their product strategy isn't working.

Customers are still accustomed to the Apple’s innovations ready to drive markets - instead of Apple struggling to follow.

What are you talking about? Please show me where they are "struggling to follow".

Most people closely following IT-strategies, know that Apple will jump on the bandwagon as soon as Surface-class devices will soar, which might happen as soon as a viable version gets introduced.
It just doesn't have a choice, having become a follower rather than a disruptor.

Well, I've been an Apple customer for nearly 40 years and I've seen a lot of people like you, people who don't understand Apple, come and go. The claims are always the same, year after year, decade after decade, yet nothing changes. Apple doesn't fail. Apple doesn't "jump on the bandwagon". They continue to innovate and define their own path.

Again: the 5 reasons why iPad "can be your next computer", and avoiding as many reasons why it is a failed compromise, only illustrate mental obstinance towards a new convert that combines iPad and Mac UX's.
They rather constitute 5 out of of 555 reasons why Apple Mgt. should be replaced with a newer generation

No. Mental obstinance is refusing to understand what Apple is doing with the iPad. The iPad easily replaces a laptop for a large portion of computer users. For the rest, there is the Mac (or Windows, or Linux, or whatever).
 
Haven’t they already done that? Apple is pretty much laser focused on the consumer market and has been for years. (Big) Business and education haven’t been their priorities for a long time.
I tend to agree. But formally there’s their IBM co-operation and the various education initiatives - which in that sense are halfbaken/failure. The other consequence is that iDevice Pro is a marketing stoplap/void (apart from pencil artists)
 
I tend to agree. But formally there’s their IBM co-operation and the various education initiatives - which in that sense are halfbaken/failure. The other consequence is that iDevice Pro is a marketing stoplap/void (apart from pencil artists)

I don't know what is going on with the IBM deal. It sounded like a positive development, but I haven't heard much about it since it was announced.

I think you are underestimating the iPad/Pencil combination. I'm not an artist, but I use the Pencil a lot for note taking, brainstorming, etc. For certain tasks, I reach for my iPad and Pencil. For others, I want my Mac. The idea of my Mac turning into a quasi-iPad or my iPad turning into a quasi-Mac doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm often using both devices at the same time. They work synergistically. One doesn't replace the other. I also think Apple will continue to add functionality to the Pencil, making it more mouse-like, via gestures.
 
I think you're in denial. Touchscreen laptops have been around for a long time and they've never really caught on in a meaningful way. Microsoft is doing good work with Surface, but there's no evidence that the masses really want a hybrid device. Some people like them. Other people don't.
I'm not in denial with with the new generation whose desires I know pretty well (and brought up here in the first place, to meet your opposition)
Everyone likes the Surface idea. Apple customers (especially those who were raised with iPad in their hands) tend to hate its implementation.
That, together with OS inconsistencies (phone/tablet/laptop) and lack of ecosystem integration indeed have hampered it's practical value. It is targeted to Windows users that are less critical about implementation and UX. It thereby lacks any appeal to the critical mass of iPhone or Android users. So it's not a device that grew up together with that new generation. It went the other way, down the ladder.
This implies there is an opportunity for a breakthrough device for Apple, and it's huge.
I'm not denying anything. I'm just stating why I don't think Apple will add mouse/trackpad support to the iPad.
Neither do I, under the current mgt. Not because of brilliant strategy, but by the enforced division of iOS and MacOS in an attempt to maintain/not interfere in both markets. Safest short term solution. But lack of courage for a disruptive innovation.
Good lord, I don't even know where to begin with that one. The iDevice category, that measly little category that generates billions upon billions of dollars in sales, that nothing little category that is bigger than almost every other US company in value?
Apple was always a runner-up when it came to desktop computers. They completely ceded that market to Windows years ago and aren't looking back.
Isn't the Apple Watch a new category? Aren't they dominating wearables and watch industry?
And what courageous next step should they take? Please enlighten us. What other company has taken that courageous next step and how is that working out for them?
All undeniable comments, but they have little relevance in a discussion on a potential touch/Mac convert and shaping the future.
That has the potential of integrating domestic & business: so to say combine the huge mass of iDevices and their ecosystem with all (small, medium, large, global) business appliances - overthrowing what Android and Windows can offer combined that are currently dominating their respective area's.
The resulting market is a multitude of current iDevice+Mac on the longer term (5...10 yrs)
What evolution? Apple sells far more iPads in one quarter than Microsoft sells SurfaceBooks in a year. As for the education market, Apple hasn't really been the dominant player in that arena since the Apple II days. I agree that they aren't a strong presence in education these days, but that has nothing to do with the Surface and hybrid devices.
Evolution of a younger generation as described in sentence 1.
Considered by Apple from a problem- instead of opportunity perspective. Same for you.
Missing the edu market is a key flaw. They should own it - even when less profitable. It's the future
What is wrong with Apple's product strategy? I mean, it's made them hundreds of billions of dollars in profit, created a lucrative marketplace for third party developers, sold hundreds of millions of devices per year, year after year, created hundreds of thousands of jobs around the world, etc. You might not like the devices. You might not be their target customer. But it's pretty hard to argue that their product strategy isn't working.
It is based on following/milking current trends, instead of (disruptively) developing trends of tomorrow. As extensively explained - for the willing ear. Money has priority over product. Mass and turnover have substituted lean and mean. Under Cook, milking did substitute true innovation. Go read any book about Steve J.

What are you talking about? Please show me where they are "struggling to follow".
Well, I've been an Apple customer for nearly 40 years and I've seen a lot of people like you, people who don't understand Apple, come and go. The claims are always the same, year after year, decade after decade, yet nothing changes. Apple doesn't fail. Apple doesn't "jump on the bandwagon". They continue to innovate and define their own path.
In that case, you're a relative newcomer. Welcome.
Start reading MR entries about lost position in innovation - and then come back

No. Mental obstinance is refusing to understand what Apple is doing with the iPad. The iPad easily replaces a laptop for a large portion of computer users. For the rest, there is the Mac (or Windows, or Linux, or whatever).
In that case, you're a fanboy in the sense that you're reiterating a status quo because of a mental obstacle to look into (let alone: shape) the future.
That may be OK for today - but is outright inexcusable for tomorrow.
Cook isn't any different. Which made Apple a very succesful, but incumbent corporation.
Defensive, and addicted to turnover rather than innovation potential.
Stock markets do not like that at all - see the message hereunder.
Neither very compelling to talk to.
If Cook happened to work for Sony, he would have improved Walkman to make it 5 times more expensive.
 
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Microsoft today at $840B just made top spot. Edging out Apple. With all their flaws.
 
Everyone likes the Surface idea

Stop right there.

Compare Surface sales to Mac, and Surface pales in comparison.
Compare Surface sales to iPad, and Surface sales are not even with the margin of error.

Where are these "everyones" that like the Surface idea?

Microsoft only sold 3 million Surface devices last year.
Apple sold ~18 million Macs in 2017.
Apple sold 43.8 million iPad units in 2017.
 
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Stop right there.
Compare Surface sales to Mac, and Surface pales in comparison.
Compare Surface sales to iPad, and Surface sales are not even with the margin of error.
Where are these "everyones" that like the Surface idea?
Your limited reading skills (again) hamper your responses.
Liking the idea isn't the same as buying - when meagre implementation gets in the way (as extensively described)

Put 100 laptop customers in a classroom and let them choose between:
- their favorite laptop
- exactly the same laptop including a touch screen without further compromises
Happy hiking. Yes, the world is far better when not appeasing to traditional Apple compromises (in terms of functionality, lacking apps, separate cpu architectures, and/or insane prices)
 
Your limited reading skills (again) hamper your responses.
Liking the idea isn't the same as buying - when meagre implementation gets in the way (as extensively described)

Put 100 laptop customers in a classroom and let them choose between:
- their favorite laptop
- exactly the same laptop including a touch screen without further compromises
Happy hiking. Yes, the world is far better when not appeasing to traditional Apple compromises (in terms of functionality, lacking apps, separate cpu architectures, and/or insane prices)

You keep confusing your opinion with fact. Your false hypotheticals are unsupported.

Consumer surveys and worldwide shipment numbers do not support your thesis that "Everyone likes the Surface idea."
 
I tried to organise my contacts into groups today. Customer Support confirms I can only do this by using a real computer!

( On iPad, iCloud.com on Safari, Request Desktop Site, will let me create a group but there is no way to add contacts to it.)

I’m sure my Nokia from 20 years ago could do it!
 
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I'm not in denial with with the new generation whose desires I know pretty well (and brought up here in the first place, to meet your opposition)
Everyone likes the Surface idea. Apple customers (especially those who were raised with iPad in their hands) tend to hate its implementation.

Well, I know plenty of young people too and none of them want a Surface. Anecdotal evidence is just that. It's valuable to an extent, but numbers don't lie. iPads vastly outsell SurfaceBooks. There's no evidence to date that the hybrid concept is the "next big thing."

That, together with OS inconsistencies and lack of ecosystem integration indeed have hampered it's practical value.

Or maybe people just don't find the hybrid concept that compelling.

It is targeted to Windows users that are less critical about implementation and UX.

Right, and even they aren't embracing the concept in large numbers.

It thereby lacks any appeal to the critical mass of iPhone or Android users. So it's not a device that grew up together with that new generation.
This implies there is an opportunity for a breakthrough device for Apple, and it's huge.

No. It implies that you are very good at ignoring the facts. Apple has stated its opposition to hybrid devices for a long time and I don't think that is going to change. There's no evidence that the majority of users want such devices. Sales figures show that hybrid devices are a niche, a much smaller niche than iPads.

Neither do I. Not because of brilliant strategy, but by a forced division of iOS and MacOS in an attempt to maintain/not interfere in both markets. Safest short term solution. But lack of courage for a disruptive innovation.

Or maybe the hybrid concept just doesn't work that well? Do you know what Apple is doing in its R&D labs? Apple has historically been against convergence devices, a few notable exceptions, like the awful Macintosh TV, aside. No "disruptive innovation" is going to come from marrying touch and mouse-based user interfaces and Apple knows this. That's looking to the past, not the future. The future is voice, not point and click.

All undeniable comments, but they have little relevance with a discussion on a potential touch/Mac convert.
That has the potential of integrating domestic & business: so to say combine the huge mass of iDevices and their ecosystem with all (small, medium, large, global) business appliances - overthrowing what Android and Windows can offer combined even when dominating their respective sub-area's.
The resulting market is a multitude of current iDevice+Mac on the long term (5...10 yrs)

Apple has never been able to overthrow Windows, nor do they want to. Companies exist to make money, not sell the most products. If they can do both, even better, but the priority is profit. Apple battled Microsoft on the desktop for years. They had a much better product. And that didn't matter. Apple isn't going to challenge Microsoft in that arena again. They don't need to. They own mobile like Microsoft owns the desktop. Apple sells hundreds of millions of devices every year. They generate several times the profit per year that Microsoft generates (virtually none of which comes from Surface). Apple's strategy is working. They don't need to travel back in time and resurrect the mouse interface in some weird hybrid device.

Evolution of a younger generation as described in sentence 1.

No evidence. Because I said so isn't evidence. That's your personal observation, an observation not supported by sales data.

Considered by Apple from a problem- instead of opportunity perspective. Same for you.
Missing the edu market is a key flaw. They should own it - even when less profitable. It's the future

They owned it for a long time, but these days they don't need to. It's as simple as that. The vast majority of American high school kids polled say they want or plan to buy an iPhone. Apple already has the mindshare. It's not like the old days, before the web and social media, when being in the classroom absolutely did help create brand loyalty for Apple. That's how I was first exposed to Apple computers, in my fourth grade computer class.

I think it's a shame that they aren't more established in education these days, but I also appreciate that education is a nightmare market. I've worked for a company for many years that deals exclusively with schools. When it comes to IT, they are woefully understaffed, poorly trained, and expect you to do everything for them. Apple, frankly, doesn't need this headache.

It is based on following/milking current trends, instead of (disruptively) developing trends of tomorrow. As extensively explained - for the willing ear. Money has priority over product. Mass and turnover have substituted lean and mean. Under Cook, milking did substitute true innovation. Go read any book about Steve J.

That's such nonsense. Under Cook the A-series chips have become the envy of the mobile (and even desktop) world. Apple "disrupted" (such a stupid word) the watch and wearables industry with the Apple Watch. Does that count for nothing?

And again, what trends are Apple following? You keep says they are following and milking, yet provide no evidence to support your claims. You claim they aren't "developing trends of tomorrow" because they don't sell a hybrid device, yet iPads vastly outsell hybrid devices. So how are hybrids a trend?

Basically your argument is like most anti-Apple arguments here. It boils down to "Apple isn't doing what *I* want them to do, so they are bad, failing, Cook needs to go, etc."

In that case, you're a relative newcomer. Welcome.
Start reading MR entries about lost position in innovation - and then come back

Newcomer? Ha. Nearly 40 years an Apple customer and I've been on this forum for years before you joined. I'm well aware of the nay-saying and hang-wringing about "innovation" that goes on here. I'm also well aware of how wrong those people are, over and over and over again.

In that case, you're a fanboy in the sense that you're reiterating a status quo because of a mental obstacle to look into (let alone: shape) the future.

Of course I'm a fanboy. What's wrong with that? I generally like Apple products and agree with their overall vision for computing. Now let's get real. Apple has shaped the future - more than any other tech company by a long shot. They gave us the first meaningful GUI back in the 80s. They gave us touch. It's hilarious that you equate their unwillingness to sell some bizarre hybrid device with a lack of innovation. Innovation also means knowing when an idea is BAD.
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You keep confusing your opinion with fact. Your false hypotheticals are unsupported.

Consumer surveys and worldwide shipment numbers do not support your thesis that "Everyone likes the Surface idea."

But that's his whole argument in every post. There are never any facts, just one opinion after another. He is the lone arbiter of what is and what is not innovative. It's really too bad that Apple has some bozo like Cook running the company instead of the MacRumors visionary Bacillus! :rolleyes:
 
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Hybrid's are bucking the current sales trends of pc's. They are the only group that is significantly growing in comparison.
The market for personal computing devices remains in flux and global shipments are shrinking, but sales of detachable tablets and convertible notebooks -- commonly known as 2-in-1s -- are so far bucking the trend. 2-in-1 devices can function as laptops or tablets and have become a growing segment of the PC market over the last few years, while legacy form factor devices languish in a long-term decline.
 
Stop right there.

Compare Surface sales to Mac, and Surface pales in comparison.
Compare Surface sales to iPad, and Surface sales are not even with the margin of error.

Where are these "everyones" that like the Surface idea?

Microsoft only sold 3 million Surface devices last year.
Apple sold ~18 million Macs in 2017.
Apple sold 43.8 million iPad units in 2017.

You are stuck on the Surface. There are all kinds of hybrids out there. The SurfaceBook and Surface Pro are just two.
 
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Hybrids are an answer to Apple's iPad that aren't generating much in the way of revenue or sales compared to iPad.

Because they aren't very good. Let's see what happens when somebody does them correctly. Currently that's not Apple, despite adding a keyboard and external display to a touch based device, and aggressively marketing that and the fact it has a virtual trackpad!
 
But that's his whole argument in every post. There are never any facts, just one opinion after another. He is the lone arbiter of what is and what is not innovative. It's really too bad that Apple has some bozo like Cook running the company instead of the MacRumors visionary Bacillus! :rolleyes:
Your Apple/Cook horizon has the margin of a bezel.
“Apple is the best” because “it is”, “They never overthrew Windows”, so why bother ?
They never overthrew Android, so why develop iOS either ?
“iPad is so great” => so no complement to iPad would work.
Get milked along by Cook and the Cookettes => the future you’re after
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You keep confusing your opinion with fact. Your false hypotheticals are unsupported.
Consumer surveys and worldwide shipment numbers do not support your thesis that "Everyone likes the Surface idea."
Except dyehard Apple fanboys sitting in the Cook pipeline, unable to look outside
(or to understand the term idea).

Anyway, don’t worry, just do what’s proven for Apple. Stock tumbles but Tim will rise prices again.
To which there is no limit - as nobody proved it.

What ruined Apple wasn’t growth … They got very greedy … Instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision, which was to make the thing an appliance and get this out there to as many people as possible … they went for profits. They made outlandish profits for about four years. One of the most profitable companies in America for four years. And what that cost them was their future. - Steve Jobs, 1995

 
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What ruined Apple wasn’t growth … They got very greedy … Instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision, which was to make the thing an appliance and get this out there to as many people as possible … they went for profits. They made outlandish profits for about four years. One of the most profitable companies in America for four years. And what that cost them was their future. - Steve Jobs, 1995

Apple's profit margins are actually less now than they were under Steve Jobs.

The difference is Apple sold 218 million iPhones in 2018. The last year Steve was CEO of Apple, the company sold 72 million iPhones - and had higher profit margins than today.

Tim Cook's Apple got the appliance out to 141 million more people this year than Steve Jobs' best year.

Steve Jobs' Apple sold 32 million iPads that same year, while Tim Cook's Apple sold 44 million iPads, or 12 million more in 2018. That might seem like a small increase, but the increase alone is 4 times the number of Surface devices sold during the same period.
 
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You know what thing Apple makes that does everything a Mac does?

A Mac. Why would you settle for"nearly everything"?

In this moment I’m sitting on my sofa, in a very laid back and comfortable position, holding my 11 inch iPad Pro in portrait orientation, working on a document in pages, a spreadsheet, and handling emails and messages. I can’t do that on a Mac this comfortably. To use a Mac properly I need a desk. I don’t want a desk. This is better.
 
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In this moment I’m sitting on my sofa, in a very laid back and comfortable position, holding my 11 inch iPad Pro in portrait orientation, working on a document in pages, a spreadsheet, and handling emails and messages. I can’t do that on a Mac this comfortably. To use a Mac properly I need a desk. I don’t want a desk. This is better.

Is this a joke? Finger typing on an iPad while using toy app versions is more comfortable? Plus you’re switching back and forth with fake multitasking. That sounds like pain not comfort.
 
Is this a joke? Finger typing on an iPad while using toy app versions is more comfortable? Plus you’re switching back and forth with fake multitasking. That sounds like pain not comfort.
This reminds me of the dinosaurs who used to call the mouse a "toy" because the command line interface was more powerful.
 
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Apple's profit margins are actually less now than they were under Steve Jobs.

The difference is Apple sold 218 million iPhones in 2018. The last year Steve was CEO of Apple, the company sold 72 million iPhones - and had higher profit margins than today.

Tim Cook's Apple got the appliance out to 141 million more people this year than Steve Jobs' best year.

Steve Jobs' Apple sold 32 million iPads that same year, while Tim Cook's Apple sold 44 million iPads, or 12 million more in 2018. That might seem like a small increase, but the increase alone is 4 times the number of Surface devices sold during the same period.

And how many more markets is Apple in today than before Jobs died? How many more customers are replacing their iPhones every year on top of those new customers in those new markets? How many more models, and phablets, does Apple sell now than under Jobs? These comparisons don’t prove anything.

And again, I’d love to see the breakdown by model, how many Pros, and how many Pencils, how many keyboard folios, vs. basic iPads, and iPad minis? I’ll bet that would cast some new light on these statistics.

In this moment I’m sitting on my sofa, in a very laid back and comfortable position, holding my 11 inch iPad Pro in portrait orientation, working on a document in pages, a spreadsheet, and handling emails and messages. I can’t do that on a Mac this comfortably. To use a Mac properly I need a desk. I don’t want a desk. This is better.

So, are you suggesting Apple should not compromise the original vision of the iPad, and not sell an external keyboard for the iPad?

Regardless, I disagree you need a desk to use a Mac properly. I’m watching my girlfriend now, who’s laying lazily on the couch with her MacBookPro lying in her lap, comfortably doing most of the same things you’re doing, with both hands free. I gave her an iPad, but she bought the MacBook because she needed more, and now she rarely uses the iPad.

I on the other hand am typing this on an iPad, which suits me just fine.
 
And how many more markets is Apple in today than before Jobs died? How many more customers are replacing their iPhones every year on top of those new customers in those new markets? How many more models, and phablets, does Apple sell now than under Jobs? These comparisons don’t prove anything.
Even your points prove that Apple is trying to "get this out there to as many people as possible" with smaller profit margins than during the Steve Jobs era.
 
Even your points prove that Apple is trying to "get this out there to as many people as possible" with smaller profit margins than during the Steve Jobs era.
Isn’t that the point of any business, to get it out here to as many people as possible? Android and Huawei dominate the mobile phone market as a result of that corporate philosophy, yet have much smaller profit margins than Apple. The fact Apple has lower profit margins means they’re finally competing with other companies, however minimally, as well as having a matured product which has long since paid for itself. There’s nothing truly revolutionary about Apple’s recent devices, just incremental upgrades to technology Jobs pioneered, at a substantial cost, 10 years ago. I believe Apple still has the highest profit margins of any major electronics company. I don’t know, maybe I’m missing the point of this particular debate ...
 
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