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Irrelevant, the point actually is that spit screen multitasking or picture in picture are very useful even on smartphones. And they don't get in anybody's way, they are there if you want to used them but they are not forced upon users and not having them doesn't do any good.

I can only speak for myself. I would never use split screen and other multitasking features on a phone to do the things I listed (write a 10 page document, create a 10 slide presentation deck, edit and annotate large PDFs, take lengthy handwritten notes,,,,,etc,). I seriously doubt 1 in 1000 phone users would even attempt to use their phone for these type of routine productivity tasks. But, people do this stuff on iPads all the time. I have done it numerous times.

So, it might be irrelevant to you. But, it matters to me because I like having access to this kind of light productivity while on the go. Yes, I could carry around a laptop everywhere, but I prefer not to because it is overkill for most of my mobile productivity needs. It is nice to just put my 1 pound inexpensive $300 2017 iPad in the glove compartment, and use it when the need arises to get some work done.

To each their own.
 
Irrelevant, the point actually is that spit screen multitasking or picture in picture are very useful even on smartphones. And they don't get in anybody's way, they are there if you want to used them but they are not forced upon users and not having them doesn't do any good.

The same argument could be made for any feature not included in iOS. Regardless of how niche it may be, just include it even if only a very small minority do end up using it, since it doesn’t negatively impact those who don’t need it.

But what about opportunity cost? All other things equal, the time and resources spent on implementing a feature nobody wants could be used to work on another feature which benefits more people.

I am not saying that multitasking or PIP are pointless on a phone (I personally wouldn’t mind being able to PIP an embedded YouTube clip while scrolling through the rest of the article), but my point is that it’s not so accurate to claim that it doesn’t negatively impact the users who have no need for such a feature.
 
The same argument could be made for any feature not included in iOS. Regardless of how niche it may be, just include it even if only a very small minority do end up using it, since it doesn’t negatively impact those who don’t need it.

But what about opportunity cost? All other things equal, the time and resources spent on implementing a feature nobody wants could be used to work on another feature which benefits more people.

I am not saying that multitasking or PIP are pointless on a phone (I personally wouldn’t mind being able to PIP an embedded YouTube clip while scrolling through the rest of the article), but my point is that it’s not so accurate to claim that it doesn’t negatively impact the users who have no need for such a feature.

LoL, I had a good laugh.
This illogical desire to defend something no matter what, shows just how out of touch with reality you are.
You do realize that we are talking about software features already implemented by Apple years ago. They don't have to reinvent the wheel.

And what do you know about what everybody wants? Are you some fortune teller or something?
 
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LoL, I had a good launch.
This illogical desire to defend something no matter what, shows just how out of touch with reality you are.
You do realize that we are talking about software features already implemented by Apple years ago. They don't have to reinvent the wheel.

And what do you know about what everybody wants? Are you some fortune teller or something?
And the iPad is still missing a calculator app. But Apple evidently found the time to give it a stocks and voice memo app. None of which I use.

Point being - I don't think Apple is slacking off at all. Maintaining and updating iOS is a 24/7 job. At any one time, there is likely a long laundry list of software features waiting to be added to iOS, as well as bugs to be quashed and security holes patched. Implementing PIP might well be something the developers at Apple could well finish in half a day, and it may be something you and I desire, but it's still half a day that could be used to fix some other problem.
 
And the iPad is still missing a calculator app. But Apple evidently found the time to give it a stocks and voice memo app. None of which I use.

Point being - I don't think Apple is slacking off at all. Maintaining and updating iOS is a 24/7 job. At any one time, there is likely a long laundry list of software features waiting to be added to iOS, as well as bugs to be quashed and security holes patched. Implementing PIP might well be something the developers at Apple could well finish in half a day, and it may be something you and I desire, but it's still half a day that could be used to fix some other problem.
You have no valid point in the first place.
Your claim that implementing split screen multitasking or picture in picture on iphones would stop apple from develop other software features that most people would want(and what are those features in the first place??) is simply absurd and out of touch with reality.
 
with any Mac adding a file to an app is easy and can be done wirelessly or with a direct connection. With the removal of the app store from iTunes you can't drag a file into an apps folder, it must be done using cellular or wifi. Large files require that you sit there moving your finger across the screen so the file transfers (I have several 600 MB Filemaker files). So, unless these 2018 iPads can connect to iTunes 12.6.5.3, all the fancy fast paced commercials in the world won't peak my interest.

Jim, are you asking if you can connect an iPad to iTunes and transfer files to an app that’s on the iPad? If so, you can do this with the latest versions of iTunes still, not just the older iTunes that had the App Store built in. You can’t sync the apps onto the iPad from the computer anymore (and I am also disappointed that we can no longer do that), if that’s what you meant, but you can copy files to the apps that are on your iPad. You click on the iPad icon in iTunes, then File Sharing in the side menu, then on the app and you can drag files into iTunes there and they load into the app on the iPad. Sorry if that’s not what you meant.
 
You have no valid point in the first place.
Your claim that implementing split screen multitasking or picture in picture on iphones would stop apple from develop other software features that most people would want(and what are those features in the first place??) is simply absurd and out of touch with reality.

So those software features are supposed to somehow just develop themselves without requiring any added time or attention from the developers themselves?
 
I can only speak for myself. I would never use split screen and other multitasking features on a phone to do the things I listed (write a 10 page document, create a 10 slide presentation deck, edit and annotate large PDFs, take lengthy handwritten notes,,,,,etc,). I seriously doubt 1 in 1000 phone users would even attempt to use their phone for these type of routine productivity tasks. But, people do this stuff on iPads all the time. I have done it numerous times.

So, it might be irrelevant to you. But, it matters to me because I like having access to this kind of light productivity while on the go. Yes, I could carry around a laptop everywhere, but I prefer not to because it is overkill for most of my mobile productivity needs. It is nice to just put my 1 pound inexpensive $300 2017 iPad in the glove compartment, and use it when the need arises to get some work done.

To each their own.
No your point was to suggest that split screen multitasking or picture in picture are useless on phones because you exemplified they are useless on smart watches.
You point was simply to bash the existence of these features on the Android platform. They become great and desirable after apple implements them on iphones just like it happened with inductive charging.
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So those software features are supposed to somehow just develop themselves without requiring any added time or attention from the developers themselves?
I don't get it, aren't these features implemented in iOS already? Would it be hard to make them work on the phone version of the OS? And why do you think it would be a problem for app developers to implement features that would make their apps better and help people use them in additional ways in comparison to how they are using them now?
You talk like there is a perfect balance and it's a problem for developers to add new features(like for example the Notch or 3D touch never happened on ios and app developers never had to do anything about those things).
 
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Irrelevant, the point actually is that spit screen multitasking or picture in picture are very useful even on smartphones. And they don't get in anybody's way, they are there if you want to used them but they are not forced upon users and not having them doesn't do any good.

They should be there on the XS Max, I agree. No harm in having them, if implemented correctly. Although what I’ve seen in android is pretty clunky, it works. My guess is that they were shelved until iOS 13 like everything else.
 
They should be there on the XS Max, I agree. No harm in having them, if implemented correctly. Although what I’ve seen in android is pretty clunky, it works. My guess is that they were shelved until iOS 13 like everything else.
Well you should check an android phone which was launched the last 2 years at least.
 
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No your point was to suggest that split screen multitasking or picture in picture are useless on phones because you exemplified they are useless on smart watches.
You point was simply to bash the existence of these features on the Android platform. They become great and desirable after apple implements them on iphones just like it happened with inductive charging.
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I don't get it, aren't these features implemented in iOS already? Would it be hard to make them work on the phone version of the OS? And why do you think it would be a problem for app developers to implement features that would make their apps better and help people use them in additional ways in comparison to how they are using them now?
You talk like there is a perfect balance and it's a problem for developers to add new features(like for example the Notch or 3D touch never happened on ios and app developers never had to do anything about those things).

My point wasn’t that you could not implement these features on a phone. My point was that even if you implemented them on iOS, they would not change the fact that there are some productivity tasks that the iPad is just plain better than an iPhone. I even went to the pains of using bold underline to demonstrate I was talking about these specific productivity tasks. Adding these software feature to an iphone does not necessarily make it productive or useful for these tasks.

Before you jumped in, I was responding to the notion that the iPad was somehow pointless because it run the same OS as an iPhone and iPad only features could be implemented on the iPhone. I cited a list of tasks that I can easily do on an iPad that I would never attempt on an iPhone.....even if the software features were added. So, I will stand by my position that just because you can implement some of these iPad only features on the iPhone does not mean that they are useful for the type of productivity activities that I was discussing.
 
It's very simple really. Personally I use the tablets only for media/Internet consumption and touch interface works fine for this. But as soon as the physical keyboard gets in the picture (and Apple does produce those), the tablet stops being a pure touch device. At this point tablet transforms into a hybrid device (or a laptop if you wish). So, if Apple concedes that the accessory like a keyboard improves productivity, then they may as well recognize that the mouse is a logic step in the same direction. To me, all this "tablet as a computer replacement" does not make much sense except for in limited circumstances. I lived through the times when computer monitors grew in size from 14" to 40" (and more - in multi monitor configurations). Going back to using 11" screen for any real work (or even something as simple as on-line shopping) is a huge regress.

So true.
Give it the ability to expand to utilize external accessories and do it so it works. This crippled crap and calling it a laptop replacement is sad and pretty much a marketing only ploy.
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Yeah spoken like somebody who hasn't used split screen multitasking or picture in picture on a phone in the last 2 years at least.


And just because somebody says a feature is not useful or desirable doesn't mean it's not useful or desirable.

Use plit screen on my Razer all the time (phone).
Wish my 8+ also had this.
 
Using new smart keyboard as arrived today at last. Will be using my 12.9 as a true laptop replacement as of tomorrow.
 
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First day in the office with the new keyboard working perfectly for my workflow that’s for sure. Glad I got the 12..9 in the end

I ended up getting the 12.9” as well (coming from a 9.7” iPad Pro). The increase in screen estate is phenomenal. Now is just a matter of waiting for my apps to be updated accordingly.
 
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That though is becoming the issue.
Apple extends the iPad Pro to allow external monitor display. However it only does a half assed job at best. This is becoming more common - implementation.
Decidedly un-Apple like. :(

I think people are reading way too much into external display support. The iPad is a single window device. Sure, you can have multiple "windows" open within an application, but you can only work with one window at a time. Split view lets you open two, but not from the same application. There's no concept of windows overlapping each other, being able to drag windows and place them on a screen, etc. So, not only is the iPad missing mouse support, it's also not designed for moving windows around.

I think people need to adjust their expectations when it comes to the iPad supporting external displays. It's never going to work like a Mac or Windows. Apple has supported external display output on the iPad for a while now and it's up to the developer to use it. Since you can't interact directly with the display (no mouse, no cursor), the external display is limited to very specific functions. An example might be a video editor that is uses the external display for preview. Another example is a photo editor that shows the preview image on the external display while allowing you to zoom in and edit in fine detail on your iPad. And then, of course, there are the obvious ones like displaying a photo album or watching a video on a TV.

I don't see Apple's implementation as half assed. It's very focused and completely in line with their overall vision for the iPad. What I see is a group of people who, essentially, want Apple to turn the iPad into a Mac. They want external display support, multiple windows, a file system, mouse/trackpad support, etc. At that point, you have a Mac.
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It's very simple really. Personally I use the tablets only for media/Internet consumption and touch interface works fine for this. But as soon as the physical keyboard gets in the picture (and Apple does produce those), the tablet stops being a pure touch device. At this point tablet transforms into a hybrid device (or a laptop if you wish). So, if Apple concedes that the accessory like a keyboard improves productivity, then they may as well recognize that the mouse is a logic step in the same direction. To me, all this "tablet as a computer replacement" does not make much sense except for in limited circumstances. I lived through the times when computer monitors grew in size from 14" to 40" (and more - in multi monitor configurations). Going back to using 11" screen for any real work (or even something as simple as on-line shopping) is a huge regress.

No, no, no. You can't compare an external keyboard to a mouse. The external keyboard changes nothing about the iPad experience. It just makes typing faster and more efficient. Instead of using the on-screen keyboard, you use the external one. The mouse changes everything. Now you have a cursor. You no longer touch the screen to select things. It completely and fundamentally changes the iPad user experience. That should be pretty obvious.

Apple doesn't want to "replace" anything. They want customers like me, people who buy a Mac, an iPad, an iPhone, and a Watch (that I never wear). They don't want to turn the iPad into a Mac, which is essentially what some people want. So let's imagine that they add mouse support and we now have a cursor on the iPad screen. What next? Multiple windows, right? I mean, who wants mouse support without being able to open a bunch of windows and drag and drop between them, etc? And now that we have all these windows open, we need a better way to manage our documents, so we need access to the filesystem along with a Finder-like app. Etc.

Bottom line: Apple is marketing the iPad as a laptop replacement to casual users, not MacRumors readers.
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I’m lost then. So you say you could see them adding mouse/trackpad support for specific tasks, but there would be no cursor? What would indicate what you are selecting then? Apple already has a cursor in iOS for text selection, I don’t see a huge difference. I think it comes at some point (we can disagree here), but I think it will come in a way we aren’t currently used to.

We don't have a cursor for text selection. We have an insertion point. There's no little pointer floating around on an iPad screen. What I mean by specific tasks is a CAD application that supports a mouse within the drawing area, for example. Again, I don't see this happening, but I'm just entertaining the idea. When this application is active, the mouse can be used for drawing only. The user still interacts with the iPad and iOS via touch, but the mouse gives the user greater precision within the drawing window (which could be displayed on an external screen). In this scenario it's better to think of the mouse like the Surface Dial, a specific use accessory, not a primary means of interacting with the device.

But that seems really un-Apple-like to me, especially now that I write it out. I think it's far more likely that Apple will add functionality, via gestures, to the Pencil that allows it to function more like a mouse. I just don't see Apple breaking their rule of the user interacting directly with the device via touch (whether you're using your finger or the Pencil). You keep suggesting that Apple will come up with some new and innovative way to add mouse support to the iPad, but what would that be? A mouse is a mouse. It needs a cursor on the screen. There's no getting around that. I just don't see Apple moving the iPad in that direction.
 
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I think people are reading way too much into external display support. The iPad is a single window device. Sure, you can have multiple "windows" open within an application, but you can only work with one window at a time. Split view lets you open two, but not from the same application. There's no concept of windows overlapping each other, being able to drag windows and place them on a screen, etc. So, not only is the iPad missing mouse support, it's also not designed for moving windows around.

I think people need to adjust their expectations when it comes to the iPad supporting external displays. It's never going to work like a Mac or Windows. Apple has supported external display output on the iPad for a while now and it's up to the developer to use it. Since you can't interact directly with the display (no mouse, no cursor), the external display is limited to very specific functions. An example might be a video editor that is uses the external display for preview. Another example is a photo editor that shows the preview image on the external display while allowing you to zoom in and edit in fine detail on your iPad. And then, of course, there are the obvious ones like displaying a photo album or watching a video on a TV.

I don't see Apple's implementation as half assed. It's very focused and completely in line with their overall vision for the iPad. What I see is a group of people who, essentially, want Apple to turn the iPad into a Mac. They want external display support, multiple windows, a file system, mouse/trackpad support, etc. At that point, you have a Mac.
[doublepost=1543082633][/doublepost]

No, no, no. You can't compare an external keyboard to a mouse. The external keyboard changes nothing about the iPad experience. It just makes typing faster and more efficient. Instead of using the on-screen keyboard, you use the external one. The mouse changes everything. Now you have a cursor. You no longer touch the screen to select things. It completely and fundamentally changes the iPad user experience. That should be pretty obvious.

Apple doesn't want to "replace" anything. They want customers like me, people who buy a Mac, an iPad, an iPhone, and a Watch (that I never wear). They don't want to turn the iPad into a Mac, which is essentially what some people want. So let's imagine that they add mouse support and we now have a cursor on the iPad screen. What next? Multiple windows, right? I mean, who wants mouse support without being able to open a bunch of windows and drag and drop between them, etc? And now that we have all these windows open, we need a better way to manage our documents, so we need access to the filesystem along with a Finder-like app. Etc.

Bottom line: Apple is marketing the iPad as a laptop replacement to casual users, not MacRumors readers.
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We don't have a cursor for text selection. We have an insertion point. There's no little pointer floating around on an iPad screen. What I mean by specific tasks is a CAD application that supports a mouse within the drawing area, for example. Again, I don't see this happening, but I'm just entertaining the idea. When this application is active, the mouse can be used for drawing only. The user still interacts with the iPad and iOS via touch, but the mouse gives the user greater precision within the drawing window.

But that seems really un-Apple-like to me, especially now that I write it out like that. I think it's far more likely that Apple will add functionality, via gestures, to the pencil that allows it to function more like a mouse. I just don't see Apple breaking their rule of the user interacting directly with the device via touch (whether you're using your finger or the Pencil). You keep suggesting that Apple will come up with some new and innovative way to add mouse support to the iPad, but what would that be? A mouse is a mouse. It needs a cursor on the screen. There's no getting around that. I just don't see Apple moving the iPad in that direction.

Okay, we have an insertion point that floats around the screen, kind of like a cursor. What you describe is the only way I see it being implemented, if ever. Trackpad support (I don’t think mouse support would ever arrive) in specific apps/tasks, not system wide. Yea I am not sure how it could be implemented. As I’ve said, I think Apple has smarter people than me to figure out that stuff. When I say implemented differenty, I’m saying via a different connection method, not just connecting a mouse like people are used to. Using an iPhone or an iPad connected to an external display would be very Apple like as it is uses its own proprietary hardware as added value to another device, driving potentially more revenue, and keeping the customer buying more hardware. I agree that it may not happen and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it didn’t, but I think if you really want to add more pro apps, you’ll need a more precise and less tedious input method.

If Apple is fine cannabilizing the Mac for casual users (likely its largest user base, not macrumors members), I can’t see why they wouldn’t want to do this to their pro users as well. Long term, Apple wants to lock its customers into its closed ecosystem and drive app sales through the App Store. Taking these steps and making the iPad more Mac-like over time, they can do this slowly over time and migrate the bulk of its users into a closed, controlled, ecosystem. Obviously I could be completely wrong, but I think it does make businsss sense.
 
It's very simple really. Personally I use the tablets only for media/Internet consumption and touch interface works fine for this. But as soon as the physical keyboard gets in the picture (and Apple does produce those), the tablet stops being a pure touch device. At this point tablet transforms into a hybrid device (or a laptop if you wish). So, if Apple concedes that the accessory like a keyboard improves productivity, then they may as well recognize that the mouse is a logic step in the same direction. To me, all this "tablet as a computer replacement" does not make much sense except for in limited circumstances. I lived through the times when computer monitors grew in size from 14" to 40" (and more - in multi monitor configurations). Going back to using 11" screen for any real work (or even something as simple as on-line shopping) is a huge regress.

Apple has already conceded this. They not only include a virtual trackpad built into the onscreen keyboard to control an onscreen text cursor, they market the feature. When the Smart Keyboard is added, the ability to control the text cursor is taken away. Some have argued it’s replaced by arrow keys (!!) of all things — possibly the most un-Apple-like addition to a touch interface ever (I mean why take away a iOS touch-based interface like a trackpad, and add arrow keys which appear nowhere in iOS forcing a customer to use two disparate methods of input to do the same thing on the same device?). Of course the reality is, there are times when I would love to have arrow keys on the onscreen keyboard for minor adjustments that take more time to lift my fingers off the keyboard to reposition the cursor, or worse, pick up a pencil to do it. So Apple has already demonstrated they understand the need for such tools, and are marketing the iPad as a replacement for a product which offers such things as a trackpad, and a full keyboard. After all, it makes no sense to sit the iPad upright and type or draw on it — yet that’s exactly what Apple is demonstrating as a primary use case, which they market and encourage with the addition of accessories that promote and facilitate such use.

Also, when you consider that the Apple TV includes a touch based trackpad for navigating an iOS-style screen, there appears to be a prototype for incorporating a trackpad into iOS without necessarily adding a full blown pointer, and continuing to provide a random text editing cursor which Apple has already proven, and touts is an important part of iOS.

The people arguing against this the most seem to also be suggesting that Apple should not have introduced an external keyboard, or split screens, or any of the other features that migrate the platform away from a purely touch based interface and toward a hybrid type device. But it’s Apple’s invention, and they can do whatever they want to with it. It’s not for MacRumors forum members to define iOS or its use — that’s Apple’s exclusive prerogative. And it’s for Apple to decide what works best for its customers, and they clearly see a need for trackpad-style control, and MacBook-like keyboards with Mac-like multiple screen uses. The more versatile the product the more powerful it can become. Forcing the iPad to work purely as a single-screen, touch-based interface, is just as bad as Steve Jobs insisting the Mac could not have arrow keys, forcing the customer to use a mouse even when it wasn’t the most efficient method available to accomplish a specific task. The infancy learning phase of iOS is over — it’s time to make it as productive as possible even if that means violating a few Original design principals some hold as gospel.
 
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Okay, we have an insertion point that floats around the screen, kind of like a cursor.

Not really. The insertion point doesn't float. You can move it, but only within the text. Once it is placed in position, it is active. A cursor is different. It's floating on top of everything, waiting for a click to activate it. Clicking a button does one thing. Clicking within a text area does another. Etc.

What you describe is the only way I see it being implemented, if ever. Trackpad support (I don’t think mouse support would ever arrive) in specific apps/tasks, not system wide. Yea I am not sure how it could be implemented. As I’ve said, I think Apple has smarter people than me to figure out that stuff. When I say implemented differenty, I’m saying via a different connection method, not just connecting a mouse like people are used to. Using an iPhone or an iPad connected to an external display would be very Apple like as it is uses its own proprietary hardware as added value to another device, driving potentially more revenue, and keeping the customer buying more hardware. I agree that it may not happen and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it didn’t, but I think if you really want to add more pro apps, you’ll need a more precise and less tedious input method.

I see it differently. If anything, I see support for a mouse, not a trackpad. When you're talking about "pro" users, they all use mice. I work with several architects. No one designs buildings with a trackpad. I have several photographer and videographer friends. Again, no one uses a trackpad.

That said, I think Apple would rather sell you BOTH an iPhone and a Mac, not an iPhone (or iPad) that turns into a quasi-Mac when you connect it to an external display. If you look back at Apple's history, they've almost always resisted the hardware "dock" idea (the problematic DuoDock being the exception). I really think their mouse replacement is already here. The Pencil. It's just as precise as a mouse and more precise than a trackpad. Adding a few tap and swipe gestures will let it do everything a mouse can do.

If Apple is fine cannabilizing the Mac for casual users (likely its largest user base, not macrumors members), I can’t see why they wouldn’t want to do this to their pro users as well. Long term, Apple wants to lock its customers into its closed ecosystem and drive app sales through the App Store. Taking these steps and making the iPad more Mac-like over time, they can do this slowly over time and migrate the bulk of its users into a closed, controlled, ecosystem. Obviously I could be completely wrong, but I think it does make businsss sense.

I agree that Apple wants to lock its customers in, but the iPad has a LONG way to go before it will remotely satisfy the needs of "pro" users. I think Apple is happy to move casual users to the iPad for a number of reasons, not the least of which is support. It's a lot harder for an inexperienced user to screw up an iPad (and wind up at the Genius Bar) than it is for him/her to screw up a Mac. Casual users are the low hanging fruit. It would take Apple many years to add all of the features necessary to satisfy the “pro” crowd.

I also agree that Apple wants to migrate the bulk (I will say ALL) of its users to a closed/controlled system. That's why I think they're moving the Mac more towards iOS, not making the iPad more Mac-like. Look at what they are doing to macOS and Mac hardware. Sandboxing. T2 security features. Restricting applications from unknown developers. Etc. And now we have Marzipan, which will allow iOS apps to come to the Mac. In time, though, this technology will mature and facilitate the creation of apps that can run on both touch and mouse-driven systems.

I think Apple will move the Mac to iOS one day and that variant of iOS will have a cursor, a menu bar, support multiple windows, etc. But it will also be very locked down, probably won't provide direct access to the filesystem, will only support apps from the App Store, etc. I don’t think we’ll ever see macOS on ARM. I think Apple is working on a new iOS-based desktop OS that will run on ARM-based “Macs” one day.
 
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