Apple Incorporates HDCP (Copy Protection) in New Laptops

[Cave Man]

Yup. I think we all knew Steven was chock full of BS when he said they didn't include Blu-Ray due to the licensing issues. Instead he should have said that Apple is (once again) late to the party and trying to play catch up.

This is unlikely. At least some, if not all, video purchases from the iTS have HDCP. I think Steve's bigger issue with the Studios is that Blu-Ray discs aren't encrypted with Fair Play. The inclusion of HDCP compliance is probably a forward-thinking precaution.

 

[Snowy_River]

And let's not forget that there aren't that many "Iron Man's". The movie that you cited as an example is an absolute best case scenario for the studios. That has to cover a lot of under performers.

Yes, and I acknowledged that argument in a subsequent post. However, now let me offer a little more against that argument. I found a website called The Numbers that gives all kinds of data about movies, including financial data. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, they openly admit that some of their numbers are based on estimates. But it should be good enough to give a feel for things.

If we consider the top ten money earners of all time (of which Iron Man is not one - it's not even in the top twenty), the total profit for the studios generated off the box office ticket sales for these movies has been $4,217M. In comparison, the top twenty money losers of all time have a total loss of $1,590M. In other words, the top twenty losers only lost about a third of what the top ten winners made. (On a total cost of $3,464M.)

Of course, this doesn't do the best job of showing how the overall distribution falls, but it seems pretty clear that the movie studios pretty much make there money off of box office ticket sales. Even if the net result of a full analysis of all movies showed that overall they only made about 10% (as opposed to the over 75% suggested in my quick analysis above), that's still a pretty good rate of return on an investor's money. And that's still money before any DVD or online sales.

 

[seedster2]

Mini-displayport is not an industry standard; displayport is the recognized standard. Apple shrunk the industry standard to fit the AIR and ultimately guarantee one interface across their entire notebook laptop (and to make a bundle on their in-house converter cables)

I think it's awful how Apple covertly implemented HDCP into their laptops. But it isn't surprising at all. I have long accepted that they operate just like any other computer company. It's a shame that Jobs can't be a little more transparent with their loyal customers.

Apple apologists are hypocrites. The studios are considered greedy for wanting to squeeze every penny out of their investment, yet apple who excludes propietary cables, remotes, ipod docks for 3G iphone, OS X which wont work on PC's with similar components are considered to be simply "protecting their IP" and did "market research" to determine people don't use the extras...blah

I personally do not mind HDCP as I have adopted BluRay and understood its necessity. At least they were up front about it.

 

[SeaFox]

I have not seen a BDP that would allow you to play a movie when you have a monitor (TV) connected to it with a digital connection that didn't support HDCP. You are supposed to get an error message and no picture at all. Analog connections don't have to worry about that (HDCP), but will have to deal with ICT sooner or later.

Yes, but this wasn't a display device he was connecting the Macbook too. He was connecting it to the Mini-Display Port to VGA adapter, so the signal going to the projector was analog. The adapter is too dumb to know what is going on. All it knows it is not getting a signal from the Macbook. So the error comes up on the laptop instead.

If the Macbooks had an actual VGA port on them, maybe it would have displayed at the deliberately lower resolution analog output.

 

[diamond.g]

Yes, but this wasn't a display device he was connecting the Macbook too. He was connecting it to the Mini-Display Port to VGA adapter, so the signal going to the projector was analog. The adapter is too dumb to know what is going on. All it knows it is not getting a signal from the Macbook. So the error comes up on the laptop instead.

If the Macbooks had an actual VGA port on them, maybe it would have displayed at the deliberately lower resolution analog output.

Ah, yeah that is dumb, the adapter should be smart enough to know that VGA is exempt from HDCP requirements.

 

[Dan55304]

Haven't we had enough of this yet?

describes how one unibody MacBook owner ran into this copy protection:HDCP tries to prevent unauthorized transmission of protected digital content by only requiring HDCP to HDCP connections.

Haven't we had enough of this junk already. Why are we letting the studios tell us how we are to use our own movies? I won't buy any movie with this kind of protection and I encourage everyone to do the same. Maybe Hollywood will wake up... it's our movie.

Software is moving in the same direction. I returned Spore because of it's call home DRM and 3 lifetime installs. I had a computer go bad over the weekend and couldn't play a game I paid $80 for until EA opened on Monday. Oh gee, even on Monday they said no. Three install limit ya know.

Adobe is on the same track here with required internet validation. How is this good for us legitimate customers? I won't be buying any more upgrades for Adobe either. I've already been burned with them also with a restored computer.

Piracy is bad, no question. Causing a bag of pain for the legal owners is very bad.

 

[ajzman]

Hopefully this means that Blu-ray support is on the way...

 

[LethalWolfe]

Well, I see one problem with this argument. Let's consider "Iron Man" as an example. Estimates put the cost of the film at between $140M and $180M. Okay, so that's pretty expensive. But, what about box office returns? This is money from the film before it's on DVD, BR or iTunes download. For Iron Man, the opening weekend box office returns were $206M, worldwide. Now, of course, that's gross numbers, not net. But if we were to assume that the studios got 25% of that (I don't know how much the studios actually see, so this is just a guess), then they'd be at $51.5M after the opening weekend. I think that it's quite reasonable that they'd make more than four times that amount during the theater run. So, the movie paid for itself with just the theater run.

ALL MONEY FROM DVD AND ONLINE SALES END UP BEING PURE PROFIT.

You forgot to take into consideration things like the marketing budget, which by rule of thumb for Hollywood movies is about equal to the production budget (and then another equally big marketing push once the DVD comes out). Movies *rarely* break even at the box office let alone turn a profit. Movie theaters are by and large loss leaders for films. If a film is going to turn a profit it will be in DVD sales/rentals but saying that that is pure profit is completely off base. Movie theaters could disappear tomorrow and the movie industry would make it through. If DVD sales disappeared tomorrow we'd see the system start to implode.


Lethal

 

[slughead]

You guys need to get back to the article here.

The fact is that the ITUNES STORE CONTENT WAS HDCP aware!! That doesn't just mean BluRay Discs are going to have problems with certain monitors/adapters, but it also means content on ITUNES will not work with certain APPLE computer + monitor combinations.

Anyone calling us "whiners" for being pissed should really read the above paragraph over and over again until they're just as pissed as we are. Apple has crippled their own movies from running on their own hardware. Some of these movies, you could run on one computer, upgrade to the next only to find they don't work due to some arbitrary flaw!

The hilarious part is: DVD movies aren't HDCP aware and they are higher fidelity than itunes store :X

Personally, I don't care. I refuse to buy anything with DRM I can't easily circumvent. I told everyone not to buy iTunes store DRM BS back when it first came out. In fact, I wrote an article about how iTunes sucks just two weeks before this happened.

 

[3247]

True, digital media gives you more possibilities, but still no guarantee of future compatibility.

MP3 (like JPEG, PNG, GIF...) is just a file format. All you need is the correct software to play it. With MP3 being well-documented, it's extremely unlikely that you won't find any free software to play it. This is unlike hardware formats like 8-track tapes, Betamax or LaserDisc for which you'll need physical hardware.

I think it's awful how Apple covertly implemented HDCP into their laptops. But it isn't surprising at all. I have long accepted that they operate just like any other computer company. It's a shame that Jobs can't be a little more transparent with their loyal customers.

Actually, implementing HDCP in hardware is a good thing. Without it, you won't be able to play anything for which movie studios require content protection.
The problem is selling videos that don't play on analogue displays and deliberately enabling the restriction on new MacBook (Pro)s whereas older models are able to play the very same content on the very same screen.

 

[RoboCop1]

It is bad and good. If Apple is incorporating HDCP then we can predict that Blu-Ray might be coming to the Mac. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

You guys need to get back to the article here.

The fact is that the ITUNES STORE CONTENT WAS HDCP aware!!

I'd never buy something digital that has DRM...not music and certainly not movies. Well, OK, I've bought a few music videos for AppleTV, but that's the extent of it. I'll RENT HD movies, but I'm not buying something that probably won't work in the future. All my music is ripped from my CD collection or is DRM free. I can use it anywhere (and new car players have USB ports that work great with small usb flash drives. I've got 8GB in my car on a stick the size of my thumbnail, which is close to 100 CDs worth at 256kbit AAC for all of $28). If I had used iTunes DRM music, it wouldn't play (the stereo plays AAC files, but not DRM protected ones for obvious reasons seeing as Apple refuses to license Fairplay to ANYONE for ANY reasons, greedmongers that they are, which means you the consumer are screwed if you want to play that stuff on anything other than Apple products (which as we know is what they want; you to buy everything Apple and have no competition from anyone else. Screw that I say. I'll buy my music from Amazon.com or on CD and then rip it.) I bought one iTunes Plus song ("Don't Dream It's Over" by Crowded House) from the iTunes store and it wouldn't play right on my car stereo even so (I had to use iTunes to "convert" AAC to AAC (odd thing to do eh?) before it would play properly (it was running in slow-motion or something). At least I COULD convert (i.e. fix) it.

 

[SeaFox]

Ah, yeah that is dumb, the adapter should be smart enough to know that VGA is exempt from HDCP requirements.

No, you're close but you still have it backwards. The adapter isn't responsible for this, Apple's implementation of HDCP is. The adapter is not does not know the rules of HDCP, it is only an adapter. What happened was the Macbook reached out with its HDCP hand when it saw something connected to the Mini-DisplayPort, and found nothing with HDCP on the other side. The adapter displayed no signal because it was not given one to begin with.

The Macbook (or rather iTunes) should have a way of recognizing a digital to analog adapter and should have instead sent it a reduced resolution signal. This is what happens on Windows when you try to play HDCP protected content over a DVI port when the display device is not HDCP compatable. Or so I've heard. I've never had to deal with anything like that before and the monitor I'm using now has HDCP support.

Haven't we had enough of this junk already. Why are we letting the studios tell us how we are to use our own movies?

Because they can make a more entertaining movie than you can?

Adobe is on the same track here with required internet validation. How is this good for us legitimate customers?

You could also buy a legitimate copy but then use a cracked one for installs. I've heard of more than a couple people do this for games. As long as you abide by the license limits for number of copies they can't say you pirated anything you didn't pay for.

 

[Macmel]

What they do with all this anticopy measures is actually the opposite of what they want: promote piracy.
Take a look at the game Spore. You pay $50 for it and you get 3 installations out of the box. That means, if you have a couple computers, you have used two of them, or if you reformat your computer you have to use another one, etc. If you use them up, you have to call EA and beg for another one, in other words, beg to use a product you have paid for legally. On top of that, you must be connected to the internet and have the game CD inserted all the time in order for the game to work. How about the hacker?. It took probably an hour for someone to crack through the security system. Now you download it, you pay nothing and you can install it as many times as you want. You don't need to have any CD with you all the time and you don't need to be connected to the internet in order to play. CONCLUSION: you pay to have a worse experience than the people obtained the game ilegally. Same with the movies, etc.
And companies don't understand that the persons are going to buy it, will buy it anyway without the copy protection, and the persons that are gonna copy it, will do so despite the copy protection. It is that symple. Any one knows of any system of copy protection that has actually worked for more than a week?

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

No, you're close but you still have it backwards. The adapter isn't responsible for this, Apple's implementation of HDCP is. The adapter is not does not know the rules of HDCP, it is only an adapter. What happened was the Macbook reached out with its HDCP hand when it saw something connected to the Mini-DisplayPort, and found nothing with HDCP on the other side. The adapter displayed no signal because it was not given one to begin with.

The Macbook (or rather iTunes) should have a way of recognizing a digital to analog adapter and should have instead sent it a reduced resolution signal. This is what happens on Windows when you try to play HDCP protected content over a DVI port when the display device is not HDCP compatable. Or so I've heard. I've never had to deal with anything like that before and the monitor I'm using now has HDCP support.

The amusing thing about what you suggest is that the standard definition iTunes movies are ALREADY below DVD resolution so there is absolutely no valid reason it shouldn't play them. HDCP was created to deal with high definition resolutions, which the movie companies don't want pirates to be able to copy at those resolutions. It was NOT meants to be used on DVD resolutions, let alone SUB-DVD resolutions. Something is VERY wrong here.

My MBP came with a DVI to Analog VGA adapter so Apple's own included hardware is pushing analog. My brand new LG 24" LCD came with a VGA cable, not a DVI one. So at least I had a way to connect the two together, but it was not digital. I had to go buy my own DVI to DVI cable. The sad thing is the video quality didn't improve one bit that I could visually detect even at full 1900x1200 resolution so it was pointless, IMO.

 

[Mackilroy]

On top of that, you must be connected to the internet and have the game CD inserted all the time in order for the game to work.

Most of what you said is right, except this: you don't need the CD in the drive to play Spore (legally).

Not that that makes Spore's install limit any better.

 

[bengal85]

I dont know about this it seems like it shoiuld be a good thing when it comes to having peolpe copy your hardrive without paying for apps and software. The only problem is it will screw alot of people over

 

[danny_w]

I dont know about this it seems like it shoiuld be a good thing when it comes to having peolpe copy your hardrive without paying for apps and software. The only problem is it will screw alot of people over

Yep, like anybody playing these movies on a new MB/MBP with their existing Apple Cinema Display. How does a company survive if it makes their new equipment incompatible with their currently existing equipment?

 

[sangosimo]

right on apple. show your users how two-faced you are. Bag-o-hurt my foot. Music industry my tuckus. Market study my nose. bah

 

[gnasher729]

Yep, like anybody playing these movies on a new MB/MBP with their existing Apple Cinema Display. How does a company survive if it makes their new equipment incompatible with their currently existing equipment?

I am not sure you know how HDCP works.

You download a movie that is marked as "playback requires HDCP". If the ACD doesn't have HDCP, then your software will _not_ play that movie. There is no technical reason for that; the reason is that the movie studio will sue the ass off the software maker if that movie is played. And if your Mac doesn't support HDCP, then no software will play that movie either (the exception is built-in monitors; playback is allowed as long as the movie is not output on a user-accessible connector). HDCP support both in the computer and in the monitor is required, otherwise the player software will just refuse to play the movie.

 

[danny_w]

I am not sure you know how HDCP works.

You download a movie that is marked as "playback requires HDCP". If the ACD doesn't have HDCP, then your software will _not_ play that movie. There is no technical reason for that; the reason is that the movie studio will sue the ass off the software maker if that movie is played. And if your Mac doesn't support HDCP, then no software will play that movie either (the exception is built-in monitors; playback is allowed as long as the movie is not output on a user-accessible connector). HDCP support both in the computer and in the monitor is required, otherwise the player software will just refuse to play the movie.

Yes, I know how HDCP works, and you described it pretty well. The difference here is that the movies that played fine on the last model MB/MBP using an external ACD no longer will play on the new model MB/MBP to that same ACD. The previous hardware apparently did not require an HDCP-compliant monitor. This is going to be a big problem for Apple when customers find that they can no longer play their purchased movies. There is already quite a bit of discussion of this on the Apple forums.

 

[zacman]

I am not sure you know how HDCP works.

If the ACD doesn't have HDCP, then your software will _not_ play that movie. There is no technical reason for that; the reason is that the movie studio will sue the ass off the software maker if that movie is played.

Let's have a look at satellite receivers. There are a lot of HDTV DVB-S receivers and recorders out there that simply ignore the HDCP flag sent by the tv station so you can simply record in 1080i to your HD.

Also soon there will be a free BluRay software player for Linux ignoring AACS, HDCP and BD+ now after all have been successfully cracked.

 

[chrono1081]

What do you mean go back?



It doesn't. In fact, it encourages it. If I spend money on content, I want to do whatever I want with it. No matter it be playing it on a projector or TV or Computer. If I paid for it, I will do what I want with it.

This is why people download illegally movies, CDs and software.

I 100% agree on this. I own all the software/movies/music I buy and it all sits in its pretty little cases unopened because I use not so nice versions so I dont have to deal with DRM ********. I have no problem whatsoever paying for anything I use but I want to do what I want with it and reinstall it on my computer each time I reformat it (which is very often) or put it on whatever new computer I may have at the time without having to worry about licensing.

If my paid for stuff wasnt DRM riddled I wouldn't have to worry about that. DRM does nothing but hurt everybody.

 

[chrono1081]

Most of what you said is right, except this: you don't need the CD in the drive to play Spore (legally).

Not that that makes Spore's install limit any better.

As stated in a quote of mine above I have Spore, my nice boxed version but unfortunately due to the ******** install limits I also have to have the hacked version. Same goes with all my Valve games. There should be NO REASON anyone should have to do this just to use the software they own, bought and paid for. (My legit copy of Orange Box won't even play whatsoever and its only ever been installed on one computer. Thanks Valve your hurting yourself).

Like I said before I fully support paying for the software/songs/whatever you use but once you paid for it and cant use it due to DRM or some other stupid digital management crap your fair game to get it to work however you can. I to this day have $2500 in virtual instruments that will not activate (and I still never got to use) and even the site I bought them off of has no way of activating them for me. (They have the RECEIPT of when I bought it!) Yet a guy I know has a hacked version of pretty much everything I bought virtual instrument wise and plays them just fine. Unreal. I'm the good customer and I'm out $2500.

 

[dejo]

MP3 (like JPEG, PNG, GIF...) is just a file format. All you need is the correct software to play it. With MP3 being well-documented, it's extremely unlikely that you won't find any free software to play it. This is unlike hardware formats like 8-track tapes, Betamax or LaserDisc for which you'll need physical hardware.

Even file formats can become obsolete. Take EBCDIC. And the software to use them may not work on the latest technology. Most of the issues can be overcome with enough effort, money, etc. But there is no guarantee they will.