Oh, please, like we didn't knew before.You expect people to be shocked by the situation before they knew about it? In your opinion what is the legitimate way to have learnt about this if not the media?
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Apple 'Independently Evaluating' Foxconn's Response to Suicides at Manufacturing Plant
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Yes we know about china's record. But we're talking about Foxconn. Where did you learn about the suicides at foxconn if not in the media?
I'm not sure what that has to do with the large post that you made the font large and red that is about saddam :confused. This is getting quite odd.
I didn't hear about the suicides in this facility until they were in the media and posted here. Where did you hear about them?
Suicides are the effect. People being mistreated is the cause. We all knew about this, we all know why western countries are outsourcing there. Nothing new.
I don't think you've been following the conversation. rkswat tried to belittle people caring about the situation at Foxxconn based on them only being motivated after hearing about it in the media. Which is an absolutely legitimate place for people to hear about such news. It's a non-argument.
Yes we all know about china's human rights atrocities (which are of course ongoing). But that by no means diminishes instances like this, which absolutely are "new" in the sense that people can see a direct, tangible link between what they purchase and worker's conditions. That resonates far more than vague, impersonal, country-wide statistics. If people are motivated by this (as in turn are apple) to put pressure on foxxconn to improve conditions for their staff and/or vote with their money only good can come of it. The more that incidents like these are made public and given a face in the western world the more places like china will have to come up to speed. People being motivated is exactly what we need.
The same negative press via greenpeace about apple's environmental credentials certainly put a firework up them a few years back. I expect a similar response here. Nobody needs reminding that they're a company that takes their image very seriously.
I guess I wasn't following then. My bad. Agreed with what you said, although I think that in the end the "pressure" would be some bitching on the forums
Those who claim that a change must and can be made should go out and do more.
So I made a guess that Tampa, Florida might have about the same population as the number of employees at Foxconn. I wasn't too far off, according to Wikipedia they are about 300,000 vs. 600,000 (numbers for Foxconn seem to be very variable). So I typed "Suicides Tampa" into Google, and I found this beauty:
http://www.jumperpool.com/home.htm
There seems to be a single bridge near Tampa, Florida with one hundred eighty seven suicides so far!
First, why do you write 'accidents' in quotes when you refer to suicides? Usually you would put something in quotes like that to indicate that you don't quite believe it is true. But nobody has claimed there were any accidents. You would write 'accident' if someone 'accidentally' fell of a roof top while two armed security people were watching from a safe distance after chasing him up the stairs, you don't write 'accident' when someone jumps off a roof and the press writes of a suicide. And excuse me, but do you think the Chinese government is a bunch of completely incompetent morons? Because they would have to be if it is still all over the press after they tried their best to cover up anything. Look, if the Chinese government has done their best to cover up any accident, suicide, or murder then that is an accident, suicide or murder that you've never heard of.
http://www.jumperpool.com/home.htm
There seems to be a single bridge near Tampa, Florida with one hundred eighty seven suicides so far!
First, why do you write 'accidents' in quotes when you refer to suicides? Usually you would put something in quotes like that to indicate that you don't quite believe it is true. But nobody has claimed there were any accidents. You would write 'accident' if someone 'accidentally' fell of a roof top while two armed security people were watching from a safe distance after chasing him up the stairs, you don't write 'accident' when someone jumps off a roof and the press writes of a suicide. And excuse me, but do you think the Chinese government is a bunch of completely incompetent morons? Because they would have to be if it is still all over the press after they tried their best to cover up anything. Look, if the Chinese government has done their best to cover up any accident, suicide, or murder then that is an accident, suicide or murder that you've never heard of.
.http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender.
CHINA (Selected rural & urban areas) 1999 Males: 13.0 Females: 14.8
CHINA (Hong Kong SAR) 1999 M: 16.7 F: 9.8
Elsewhere suggests a 3:1 ratio of rural:urban suicides. I.e., of the 13 males per 100,000 a year who commit suicide, 3/4 are in rural areas.
With 400,000 Employees, you would expect 13 - 15 suicides a year, depending on your employee mix (males:females).
Sadly, the suicide rate in China is a lot higher than elsewhere in the world, but this is mostly due to the rural suicide rate being so high.
Also "dozens" of counsellors for 400,000 employees?
Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender.
CHINA (Selected rural & urban areas) 1999 Males: 13.0 Females: 14.8
CHINA (Hong Kong SAR) 1999 M: 16.7 F: 9.8
Elsewhere suggests a 3:1 ratio of rural:urban suicides. I.e., of the 13 males per 100,000 a year who commit suicide, 3/4 are in rural areas.
With 400,000 Employees, you would expect 13 - 15 suicides a year, depending on your employee mix (males:females).
Sadly, the suicide rate in China is a lot higher than elsewhere in the world, but this is mostly due to the rural suicide rate being so high.
Also "dozens" of counsellors for 400,000 employees?
Here's an earlier thread started by chaos: don't these clowns have anything better to do?
"iPad yellow screen and scratches. (issues thread)
So did your iPad arrive today?
How did the screen look? Any issues?
Any dents, scratches, or imperfections on your iPad?
Are all the buttons straight and feel good?"
Anyone get a DOA iPad?
I was? Where was all the protest way back with the first suicide with first gen iPhone? Sure there was a post but did you boycott apple? Did any of the others that are boo hooing it now boycott apple? NO is the answer you're looking for. How many people on this thread have voiced an opinion BEFORE it was brought up because of apple? We all know where the iPhones are made so there should be no excuse. IF it matters to you now why didn't it matter to you before? Are YOU going to boycott apple now? I believe a poll was done asking if anyone was not going to buy the iPhone because of the suicides and apples partnership. When I voted that I would still get it 3 had said the wouldn't and 1 said they were not sure. Lip service is easy but how about you back it up with some action and declare you won't buy any more apple products. I'll be waiting for your post.
I only have one thing to say:
http://api.ning.com/files/axhdumr91...HNi5JXXQNBj9o*20QqpAKaovMu8ltm/303803654.jpeg
This photo was taken where? In China? No. TEXAS. (read the bit of the caption on the right side)
Yep, Texas. We used to make things here in the US. WHY the hell can't we do so anymore? I'm saddened that as a country, we can't make our own stuff anymore.
Arrrgh.
I'd love to see news of a manufacturing plant opening in Texas, or California, or somewhere in the US. Sigh.
http://api.ning.com/files/axhdumr91...HNi5JXXQNBj9o*20QqpAKaovMu8ltm/303803654.jpeg
This photo was taken where? In China? No. TEXAS. (read the bit of the caption on the right side)
Yep, Texas. We used to make things here in the US. WHY the hell can't we do so anymore? I'm saddened that as a country, we can't make our own stuff anymore.
Arrrgh.
I'd love to see news of a manufacturing plant opening in Texas, or California, or somewhere in the US. Sigh.
Lost is over. The finale aired on May 23rdLost!
(that's how we got there)There's nothing to say people being mistreated are the cause whatsoever. If the urban suicide rates are roughly the same in China and in the US, it's not possible to draw such conclusions. Reasons for suicide are complex.
Many people don't know this but local suicides are almost never reported by the media for some good reasons. The Chinese ones are being reported and that makes it appear disproportionate. Perhaps part of the press dislikes outsourcing.
Because the Chinese suicides are reported in the west and western suicides are not reported in the west this distorts the appearance of the problem but still does not help understand causation.
I might be missing something, but the figures on suicide rates I've seen posted here have all been annual figures haven't they? The Foxconn suicides (is that a film?) have all taken place in the last five months....?
Just in case no one is aware of why these suicide stories are circulating, they are pushed by hedge funds and the like in an effort to move the price of stock and options. Those pushing the stories don't give a rat's ass about the workers and/or human rights. They just want to move the price, if only for a short period of time, to provide an exit or entry point. If you doubt this for an instant, a week or so ago there was an article being pushed around the net by the usual suspects about the Chinese workers who were "planning" to sue. Heard anything more about that?
Human rights abuses are rampant in China, and conditions overall are actually better in the factory cities. These certainly aren't sweat shops but are extremely regimented. But without question stress is high--just like at the U.S. Postal Service. Or Harvard.
Human rights abuses are rampant in China, and conditions overall are actually better in the factory cities. These certainly aren't sweat shops but are extremely regimented. But without question stress is high--just like at the U.S. Postal Service. Or Harvard.
I agree 1000% (is that even possible? lol)
I would be more than happy to pay a bit more to have a "Made In America" stamp on the back of my iPhone but Americans are a greedy people. We want our cake and eat it too. We whine about how crappy our public schools are then whine if we are asked to pay more taxes to improve them. Pretty funny and not in a ha ha way if you ask me.
I see what you mean, but that wasn't my point - I was answering to someone about whether we knew or not. His point was that there was nothing about suicides in the media before, my point was that it didn't matter, because we knew people were mistreated. I was arguing that those who wanted to take action could've done it long time ago.
In theory this is a wonderful idea, but sadly it will never happen. Apple is a corporation and their number one priority is to deliver a profit to the shareholders. The bigger the profit the better. Moving production of these product lines to the U.S. would increase labor cost and lower the profit Apple can make.
Interesting. If this is this is so would it be a safe to assume they push the story to try create a lower entry price for something like AAPL? When you say it was being pushed by the usual suspects do you mean a media channel or some fund interests?
My thoughts exactly. There was a time when Apple products were made in Western Nations, but in order for Apple to produce less expensive products while satisfying the share holders, they have to follow the computer industry and assemble in countries to reduce costs.
We, as western employees and consumers are responsible (not Apple) for the deaths in China because we demand less expensive products and higher wages to improve our standard of living. There comes a point where the math just does not work, and the companies are forced out of the country. You only have to look at the US auto industry. We can argue that people would buy US autos if they were any good (and that may be true), but the real problem is that it costs significantly more to make a car in the US than it does in an Asian country, even with the cost of shipping them.
Just imagine how much Apple products would cost if they were designed and "manufactured" in America. Same goes for Nike. Just think how much a pair of sneakers would cost if they were made in the good old USA. Shocking.
yes, from the media we know they are suicide cases...
I used 'accident' cos of there were other cases...
last yrs and yrs ago, there were cases suspects 'suicide' (sorry, it's ' ' again) jumping from the police building/custody, suicide notes were also found. And the media said they were feeling shame/guilt so they kill themselves... As that was written in the suicide note...
But the 'suspects' families found unknown wounds by weapons/tools on the bodies, 'suspects' seemed to be dead b4 'jumping from the building', it's more like killed, and being thrown to the ground from higher ground...
I used 'suspects' coz these ppl may not totally unrelated to crime... but to be used to close certain sensitive cases, such as crime committed by rich ppl/gov officers, etc
so these families moved the bodies in front of the police buildings and begged for justice... some led to riots, some cases where disappeared from the media (may receive $$$ from the gov)
Apart from jumping from the building, there were 'suspects' found dead in custody becoz of, drunk too much water, head hit the wall when playing hide and seek.... they are not jokes...