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Apple isn't perfect, no company is, but in my own opinion, it's far from the "bottom" as some of these posts make it out to be, although your opinion, is your opinion.

Apple products are very very good at present , but they are an evolution of what Steve left us . What is lacking is genuine innovation. I've never said anything about apple being "bottom" that is not true, they are still at the top, just lack the value they once did
 
Google doesn't sell anyone's info.
Try this:
Open a browser (download one if necessary) you don't use. Clear its cache and cookies. Now go to a few websites but not Google's or Apple's. Now check your cookies. Who's tracking you, and what's their business case for doing so?

As for app vs web site, there's no real difference if the OS is compromised, and 99% of Android devices are running an outdated version with well known security issues. Everything you enter can be captured.
 
Apple isn't perfect, no company is, but in my own opinion, it's far from the "bottom" as some of these posts make it out to be, although your opinion, is your opinion.

Pure BS. I have seen nobody make apple out to be the bottom. Just people butthurt over apple not being perfect and wearing apple's "highest profit margin" like a badge.

Apple is losing market share and claims of not selling to the same market do not cut it. Clearly if they have lost share to another company, for whatever reason, they are selling to the same market.
 
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Apple products are very very good at present , but they are an evolution of what Steve left us . What is lacking is genuine innovation. I've never said anything about apple being "bottom" that is not true, they are still at the top, just lack the value they once did
I agree, and Steve struggled with "genuine innovation" as well. Ipod yes, maybe iphone. But we all have our definitions of what innovation looks like.
 
I agree, and Steve struggled with "genuine innovation" as well. Ipod yes, maybe iphone. But we all have our definitions of what innovation looks like.

Agreed. Innovation is a bad word to use at times . Steve had a vision and an attention to detail . It's turning the same product everyone else makes, and making it special , does not mean you need to create a new product .

He was also very passionate about the user experience , the iPad Pro would not exist h set him , the perfect form factor is the original . That's my opinion anyway
 
Agreed. Innovation is a bad word to use at times . Steve had a vision and an attention to detail . It's turning the same product everyone else makes, and making it special , does not mean you need to create a new product .

He was also very passionate about the user experience , the iPad Pro would not exist h set him , the perfect form factor is the original . That's my opinion anyway
Fair enough. This conversation is a can of worms; so I will say I respect your opinion, although not entirely agreeing with it.
 



Apple has fallen to fifth place in China's booming smartphone market, where combined sales reached 131.6 million units in the fourth quarter of 2016, accounting for nearly a third of worldwide shipments. The Q4 figure confirmed the highest ever annual amount of smartphones sold in China, according to market research firm Canalys, with shipments for the year reaching 476.5 million units, rising 11.4 percent from 2015 levels.

Huawei shipments of 76.2 million units took the top spot in China's smartphone market in 2016, followed by Oppo with 73.2 million units and Vivo with 63.2 million. Apple meanwhile shipped 43.8 million units, down 18.2 percent year on year, influencing the company's 7 percent decline in global shipments compared to 2015. Apple also lost fourth place to Xiaomi, despite the Chinese maker also experiencing declines in the country.

smartphone-market-china-2015-16.jpg

Huawei's success in China continued apace on the strength of its flagship products, said Canalys research analyst Jessie Ding. "While Apple, Samsung and Xiaomi are all in the process of adjusting their strategies in China, Huawei took the opportunity to consolidate its position in the tier-1 and -2 cities." The lull also allowed Huawei to attack Oppo and Vivo's backyard "in tier-three and tier-four cities," Ding noted.

Last year Apple experienced its first ever year-over-year decline in the Chinese smartphone market, with the company's phones continuing to be outpaced by cheaper alternatives and the iPhone 7 failing to kick up a frenzy among consumers compared to previous launches, according to analysts.

Apple faced a similar story at the beginning of the current year. Despite recording record results, Apple's Q1 2017 earnings call revealed revenue was down 8 percent in China, but CEO Tim Cook claimed half of that decline was down to currency devaluation. Cook said that while China was "not without challenges", he remained "encouraged by improvements" going into the second quarter.

Analysts have previously suggested that Apple's decline in China has been compounded by loyal users taking a year off upgrading in 2016 in anticipation of 2017's "iPhone 8". If so, Apple's success there depends on whether the upcoming phone can live up to the hype.

"China and Hong Kong are still the hardest-hit areas in Apple's global top ten market," according to Ding. "The outlook remains bleak for Apple to get its China performance back to its heyday of 2015. As with consumers in other developed markets, China's consumers are awaiting the 10th anniversary of the iPhone with very high expectations."

Article Link: Apple Loses Fourth Place to Xiaomi in Booming China Smartphone Market
 
? I have apple products and would not even consider an apple or any other gimmicky watch. Not everyone rushes to buy gimmicky toys based on brand name. Deal with it.

No point in dealing with brand worshipers. Adios.

Let me rephrase this.

More power to those that like the watches from any company. Its not my thing. But dragging up something like the watches when someone says many of todays phones are as good as the iphone and calling them apple haters or android lovers is childish and just showing ridiculous butt hurt over a fricken company.

I do not like android tablets or any brand watches. The phones, try to follow, the phones have gotten really good. I own an iphone, ipad, appletv and mac.

Saying you like a product of another brand does not make you a hater or lover of anything. It makes you open minded and mature. Something foreign to some here.

Seriously, its amazing how some think a brand is part of their family or something. So what if they slipped to fourth place in china, its not like they are hurting or it even hurts anyone on this forum. My life is not pitiful enough to get upset over a rich company falling OR rising in sales.
 
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Apple is losing market share and claims of not selling to the same market do not cut it. Clearly if they have lost share to another company, for whatever reason, they are selling to the same market.
Now that's the best BS: made from snippets of the truth! Apple loses marketshare for the same reason BMW and Porsche lose marketshare: they're not interested in making a cheap product and selling it at high volume/low margin. Simple as that. Sure, technically BMW and Chrysler are selling to the same market, just as Apple and Chinese knockoffs are selling cell phones to the same market, but I think we all know there are segments of the market that Apple and BMW are more interested in than others.
 
Now that's the best BS: made from snippets of the truth! Apple loses marketshare for the same reason BMW and Porsche lose marketshare: they're not interested in making a cheap product and selling it at high volume/low margin. Simple as that. Sure, technically BMW and Chrysler are selling to the same market, just as Apple and Chinese knockoffs are selling cell phones to the same market, but I think we all know there are segments of the market that Apple and BMW are more interested in than others.

Get a clue. A person stated they are seeing less iphones now there. If people are changing from iphones to other brands they are competing in the same market. There are models of the other brands priced like iphones. It doesn't matter how much you stamp your feet or dislike it.

Your car comparison is bs. The other companies are not just selling cheap phones. A poster from there stated some are priced the same as iphones.

Do some research, apple sales have dropped. To the uninformed dropped means they went to another brand. Same market obviously.
 
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Get a clue. A person stated they are seeing less iphones now there. If people are changing from iphones to other brands they are competing in the same market. There are models of the other brands priced like iphones. It doesn't matter how much you stamp your feet or dislike it.
You get a clue. Market share is a meaningless statistic. Apple is competing against companies that are losing money while Apple makes billions, so Apple is winning, full stop. Many of these companies will not be in business five years from now because they believe that they can make up for losing money on each sale by making more sales!

The fact is that there are, and always have been, many more poor people than middle income or rich, so it will always be possible to sell more cheap crap to them than profitable, quality products to the rich and middle classes. Unfortunately for Apple's competition, doing so means doing it at low profit or even worse: at a loss.
 
You get a clue. Market share is a meaningless statistic. Apple is competing against companies that are losing money while Apple makes billions, so Apple is winning, full stop. Many of these companies will not be in business five years from now because they believe that they can make up for losing money on each sale by making more sales!

The fact is that there are, and always have been, many more poor people than middle income or rich, so it will always be possible to sell more cheap crap to them than profitable, quality products to the rich and middle classes. Unfortunately for Apple's competition, doing so means doing it at low profit or even worse: at a loss.

like samsung, sony, LG, HTC......to name a few? Are these companies that will be out of business in five years?

Do you know how silly that sounds?

Market share is not meaningless. The problem is your silly argument that market share means cheap crap, you can achieve market share with quality items. You need to stop thinking that anything not apple is crap.
 
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You get a clue. Market share is a meaningless statistic. Apple is competing against companies that are losing money while Apple makes billions, so Apple is winning, full stop. Many of these companies will not be in business five years from now because they believe that they can make up for losing money on each sale by making more sales!

The fact is that there are, and always have been, many more poor people than middle income or rich, so it will always be possible to sell more cheap crap to them than profitable, quality products to the rich and middle classes. Unfortunately for Apple's competition, doing so means doing it at low profit or even worse: at a loss.
You are spewing meaningless blather. Nobody is saying apple does not have the highest markup. So just stop it. You are moving the goalposts and bringing up something that has NOTHING to do with it.

Try to follow without wandering off.

some of the other brands are competing with apple, period. Clearly they are selling to a broader market like lower priced devices but that doesn't mean they are not competing with apple in their market also.

Apple's high markup and what they make has NOTHING to do with our discussion of what markets they are competing in. But please tell me, how does apple's high markups help you personally.

Apple's sales are down in china. Try to understanding that. Forget about market share. Their sales are down because people are going to chinese phones. Yes they are getting the cheap market but they are competing in the upper price ones also or apple's sales would not be going down in a country that is expanding.

Of course apple is making money, they will continue to make money. We were talking about competing in the same market though and there IS competition in apple's price range. You should actually learn about those companies before trying to act like you know.
 
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like samsung, sony, LG, HTC......to name a few? Are these companies that will be out of business in five years?

Do you know how silly that sounds?
Do you know how silly you sound? Samsung and Sony don't even make the list in China! By you're argument, they're already dead. Samsung does manage to make a profit, though apparently not much of one in China.

Together, Apple and Samsung have repeatedly made more than 100% of the industry profits. Meanwhile, companies like Nokia and Blackberry have disappeared almost completely, having invested heavily in attempts to buy market share. (Does Sony even make phones anymore??)

You need to stop thinking that high sales volume === quality company or quality products.
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Apple's high markup and what they make has NOTHING to do with our discussion of what markets they are competing in. But please tell me, how does apple's high markups help you personally.
Profits mean money to invest in the future, so I can buy a better iPhone in a few years. Losing money but gaining market share means less money for R & D, so lower quality iPhones in the future.

How does increasing sales volume at the cost of profits help you personally?

By the way, I don't think Apple has a high markup for a capital intensive business. It is high compared to any negative markup, but that's not a fair comparison. A reasonable markup versus a stupid markdown isn't realistic.
 
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Profits mean money to invest in the future, so I can buy a better iPhone in a few years. Losing money but gaining market share means less money for R & D, so lower quality iPhones in the future.

How does increasing sales volume at the cost of profits help you personally?

By the way, I don't Apple has a high markup for a capital intensive business. It is high compared to any negative markup, but that's not a fair comparison. A reasonable markup versus a stupid markdown isn't realistic.
The problem is that you are years behind in what you think you know.

For example. Huawei is a high end phone company whether you know it or not. Off the top of my head the mate 9 and honor 9 for example are 600.00 phones. Thats just two I know of. Huawei made a HIGHLY rated google nexus 6p. Maybe even another model. I do not remember. The mate and honor are highly rated.

These phones, just 2 off the top of my head, are competing with iphone in china. Period.

Oppo has a 600.00 phone and a 400.00 phone that I know of.

You are seriously not going to claim a chinese based company selling phones at these prices are not making a ton of money? You clearely know nothing of todays chinese phone companies.

Reasonable markup? Sitting on billions? Apple is clearly a bottom line company. not sure why anyone can't see that. Selling products several years old for the same prices (mac pro, macbook air, mac mini).

I chose to go pc laptop (I have a mac) I could get a much better spec'ed laptop from sager for under 1500.00 that is upgradeable including the graphics card that blows away the top macbook pro at a HUGE price difference. Thats an indecent profit margin. Tell me its not bottom line.

To clarify the point you claimed apple has no market competition. This is just 3-4 models that ARE competing with apple and and since they do not have the us overhead apple does possibly even making more money on them.
 
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The problem is that you are years behind in what you think you know.
Wow. Talk about being years behind! You actually think that the tech specs matter! Quality is about much more than clock speeds or memory. Software is king, and none of those companies owns the code that runs their hardware. But hey, I'd love it if you'd go buy a PC and frequent a PC forum. Leave Macs and iPhones to the rest of us.

And here's an example for you. The headline company in this article says it doesn't make money:
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/25/xiaomi-admits-it-doesnt-make-money-on-smartphone-hardware-sales/
 
Wow. Talk about being years behind! You actually think that the tech specs matter! Quality is about much more than clock speeds or memory. Software is king, and none of those companies owns the code that runs their hardware. But hey, I'd love it if you'd go buy a PC and frequent a PC forum. Leave Macs and iPhones to the rest of us.

And here's an example for you. The headline company in this article says it doesn't make money:
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/25/xiaomi-admits-it-doesnt-make-money-on-smartphone-hardware-sales/

Who cares what you would love. Your opinion on that is irrelevant.

Again you are spewing bs that has nothing to do with the conversation.

You spewed falsehoods about these companies not competing with apple. I posted proof that they DO compete.

Software is king? What? You think apple is making more on the os's than the hardware? Spewing about the companies own the code that runs it? I can only say, Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? They "buy" the os just as they all buy 3rd party parts. You are clearly out of your league. You think apple designs or builds the memory? Gpu's? Processors? Its the same they all use. You pick out one item apple builds?

Even with that how is having a bigger os overhead beneficial when it comes to our discussion? Its not. Windows builders get oem os's dirt cheap. For android its free. If apple was licensing it to 3rd party builders as windows does you may have a small point, they do not. That IS one of the reasons androids can sell cheaper. No os overhead.

I run windows10 bootcamp on my mac beside sierra. It runs better on a spinner than sierra on an ssd. Theres a thread here somewhere about how good 10 runs by bootcampers. Enlighten yourself.

I guarantee I own more apple products than you. And have certainly owned more in my life. You don't get your parents to buy you a phone and decide who else gets to keep theres or what they post on a forum that is not yours.

If you don't like that then take your toys and go home.

Those of us that own a number of apple products and have for years would like to have an adult conversation.

Its adult to make your claim and stick by it (apple has no iphone competition in china) not backpeddle and change the goalposts every time someone proves you wrong.

These companies are competing with apple and apparently doing ok, period. I have not notices snyone saying apple is going under or losing money. Its about sales going down in china whether you get that or not. Anyone that needs a safe space over that is not worth bothering with. No more.
 
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No, you're just misrepresenting what I said, which is that Apple is winning in their competition with companies like Xiaomi, which loses money selling phones.

If you really knew anything about Apple you'd know that Steve Jobs always said that it was critical for Apple - and any tech company, really - to own the critical technology that goes into their products. I'll take his word over yours.
 
You're right, Chinese really like shopping abroad. But those people shopping abroad only accounting for a very small proportion of the total population.

iPhone is great, but too expensive for ordinary people.

I agree, cost has a huge factor on what many people buy, but the post I quoted said:
As far as I know People in China rather buy Chinese products.

I took that as in national pride or just buying it because it is Chinese, not because of the cost of it.

But, given cost not being an issue, I think Chinese would prefer imported items over their domestic.

Just like me would prefer owning an imported exotic mid-engine car such as a Ferrari 355, vs the sudo-exotic mid-engine car that I own, if it wasn't for the cost.
 
No, you're just misrepresenting what I said, which is that Apple is winning in their competition with companies like Xiaomi, which loses money selling phones.

If you really knew anything about Apple you'd know that Steve Jobs always said that it was critical for Apple - and any tech company, really - to own the critical technology that goes into their products. I'll take his word over yours.

No, that is a dishonest statenent. You said at apples level they had no competition and these guys were selling cheap phones so stop being dishonest. NOTHING was said about earnings.

Steve Jobs also said the iphone 4 was the perfect sized phone. Steve jobs said a lot of things, he was a salesman. He said there was no market for an ipad mini. Give me a freaken break. Lmfao. He brainwashed a lot if people, he was good but a used car salesman.

Now that's the best BS: made from snippets of the truth! Apple loses marketshare for the same reason BMW and Porsche lose marketshare: they're not interested in making a cheap product and selling it at high volume/low margin. Simple as that. Sure, technically BMW and Chrysler are selling to the same market, just as Apple and Chinese knockoffs are selling cell phones to the same market, but I think we all know there are segments of the market that Apple and BMW are more interested in than others.

Clearly in this post you are claiming these companies are selling low end "chinese knock offs" and apple is losing marketshare because People are buying cheap junk

I pointed out they are selling high end phones that compete with apple and you changed your story.

It was not about profit shares but about apple not being the only company selling to the higher price crowd.

Its ridiculous to think higher end customers are shifting from apple to bottom end phones. Truly ridiculous. If sales are down for apple in china and up for others do you seriously think they are shifting from iphones to 100.00 androids? They are switching to ones that are in competition with apple. If you search you will find articles of sales down in china for apple. Just losing market sares is one thing, sales dropping is another. They are going somewhere and you can bet its high end androids, not bottom price phones.

Don't start again with markup and net profits. I am replying to your claim of "chinese knock off's" and low margin phones. The low margin phones do not compete with apple, the 600.00 and up phones do. Everything to do with your claim, nothing to do with profit margin.

Newsflash. Iphones are built and assembled in china. Claiming brands like huawei and oppo are knock offs is clueless.

Huawei for one makes excellent phones. So does oppo. You never hearing of them reflects more on you than them. Huawei is HUGE in many places. Phones, routers, wireless hotspots, usb hotspots. Like I said eatlier, huawei has made very well rated nexus phones.

Here in mexico they are huge. Apple has a 6 % market of ALL apple products.
 
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Do you know how silly you sound? Samsung and Sony don't even make the list in China! By you're argument, they're already dead. Samsung does manage to make a profit, though apparently not much of one in China.

Together, Apple and Samsung have repeatedly made more than 100% of the industry profits. Meanwhile, companies like Nokia and Blackberry have disappeared almost completely, having invested heavily in attempts to buy market share. (Does Sony even make phones anymore??)

You need to stop thinking that high sales volume === quality company or quality products.
Do you know how silly you sound? Samsung and Sony don't even make the list in China! By you're argument, they're already dead. Samsung does manage to make a profit, though apparently not much of one in China.

Together, Apple and Samsung have repeatedly made more than 100% of the industry profits. Meanwhile, companies like Nokia and Blackberry have disappeared almost completely, having invested heavily in attempts to buy market share. (Does Sony even make phones anymore??)

You need to stop thinking that high sales volume === quality company or quality products.

Markert share is markert share, global bud. same daft logic applies global .

Funny you mentioned Nokia and blackberry, they owned profits and makers share . Though don't be daft and blame their demise on chasing markert share, their demise was due to letting the competition go past them while they did little innovation and rode on the arrogance of their success......can you think of a company like that now ? Don't worry but there were many Nokia hardcore fans that laughed at apple at the time confident in the huge profits they were taking in.

Ill say this one last time, apple has been here before milking existing products.....eventually people get bored and refuse to pay higher and higher prices...what happens at that state champ? When the competition moves past you? Like all the rumours of the iPhone 8, playing catchup up with android features a few years back
 
Markert share is markert share, global bud. same daft logic applies global .

Funny you mentioned Nokia and blackberry, they owned profits and makers share . Though don't be daft and blame their demise on chasing markert share, their demise was due to letting the competition go past them while they did little innovation and rode on the arrogance of their success......can you think of a company like that now ? Don't worry but there were many Nokia hardcore fans that laughed at apple at the time confident in the huge profits they were taking in.

Ill say this one last time, apple has been here before milking existing products.....eventually people get bored and refuse to pay higher and higher prices...what happens at that state champ? When the competition moves past you? Like all the rumours of the iPhone 8, playing catchup up with android features a few years back
What people get bored? The issue is that this is a general statement, that's applicable to all platforms. And I disagree Apple is playing catch up, their socs are best in class, and they don't throw hardware around without adding some value above and beyond the competition.

Granted we could debate until the cows come home, which platform "is the best" and but countless threads shows it's subjective without any real yardstick, including market share and profits.
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Pure BS. I have seen nobody make apple out to be the bottom. Just people butthurt over apple not being perfect and wearing apple's "highest profit margin" like a badge.

Apple is losing market share and claims of not selling to the same market do not cut it. Clearly if they have lost share to another company, for whatever reason, they are selling to the same market.
Throw in some hyperbole, make some generalization add together and a post with no point ensues.

Apple is losing market share, but how does that translate into revenue and profits is the real question. In the debating of companies, platforms there is market share, revenues and profits.

you pick the metric that fits the discussion.
 
What people get bored? The issue is that this is a general statement, that's applicable to all platforms. And I disagree Apple is playing catch up, their socs are best in class, and they don't throw hardware around without adding some value above and beyond the competition.

Granted we could debate until the cows come home, which platform "is the best" and but countless threads shows it's subjective without any real yardstick, including market share and profits.
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Throw in some hyperbole, make some generalization add together and a post with no point ensues.

Apple is losing market share, but how does that translate into revenue and profits is the real question. In the debating of companies, platforms there is market share, revenues and profits.

you pick the metric that fits the discussion.

How about a heartbeat check on MR? General mood is not upbeat excitement .

Let's avoid an endless debate here, just look at the buyers guide..... if the current lineup excites you, awesome!
 
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