Apple Loses Fourth Place to Xiaomi in Booming China Smartphone Market

[Radon87000]

But none of the phones have all of the hardware mentioned. So if you want it all, it's in an iphone.

But the iPhone does not have an iris scanner, small bezels, best display and Samsung Pay. These are even more impressive as the iPhone 8 is going to have them

Okay the iPhone 7 did better in stability but in video quality there wasnt even a contest in that video. The grass and colors look all washed out in the iPhone recording. How is that a win? Sounds like a tradeoff. My conclusion on watching that video is a tie

Proof? And apple had it first....

Nope.Samsung had it first

http://www.androidcentral.com/samsu...ront-facing-led-flash-are-now-available-india


But none of them have all of the hardware I listed.

But none of them have all of the hardware I listed.

The point of the dfiscussion is whether iPhone specs are impressive. The iPhone has just taken Android features and mishmashed em together. How is that impressive? Everyone in the Android world rips each other off al the time

It's still news; period.

If you are stuck in 2016,sure. The current POTUS uses a Galaxy.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/trump-android-samsung-phone-security-hacks

"
Unfortunately the president’s love for security doesn’t seem to extend to his smartphone, revealed in the same interview to be an “old, unsecured Android phone”, which he carries around the White House “to the protests of some of his aides”. This contradicts previous reports suggesting Trump traded his handset for a “secure, encrypted device approved by the Secret Service”.

Android Central analyzed images of Trump using his phone and suggested he probably owns a Samsung Galaxy S3, first released in 2012 – a phone so old that it would no longer receive any new security updates or major software releases."

Nope, dumped android and went iphone. I think the army dumped it. I'll look through Macrumors headlines.

However, my point still stands.

Likely Apple paid em off. Happens all the time. Didnt MS sposnor the Super Bowl to dump Apple and go Surface?[/QUOTE]

 

[TechGeek76]

At this point, pretty much all of them are.

Only in your mind.
[doublepost=1487681644][/doublepost]

Moto G,Lumia 820 all have tapitc feedback on onscreen buttons.


S7 Edge


Xperia XA Ultra

And no. Apple doesnt have a patent on the screen flash as the S7 Edge uses the screen too



Samsung ripped off the feature from Microsoft. You asked me what production model had an iris scanner which doesnt burst into flames but since you insist on an Android phone.Here

http://webcusp.com/list-of-all-eye-scanner-iris-retina-recognition-smartphones/



His primary device is an Galaxy. He has more tweets from Galaxies than iPhones. And the fact that he uses a S3 puts all hyperbole regarding Android security to bed


Never heard of this

You're wasting your time, honestly. You are NEVER going to change this persons mind, they WILL continue to put out incorrect information as long as you allow them and deny actual facts, they don't care to know the truth.

 

[I7guy]

But the iPhone does not have an iris scanner, small bezels, best display and Samsung Pay. These are even more impressive as the iPhone 8 is going to have them

Neither does any Samsung phone. Also, is hardware being discussed or design choices. I'm happy I can buy a phone with larger bezels and the worlds most accurate display. And not have outdated technology such as Samsung Pay. Apple rumoring to put in an iris scanner is like Samsung including a wifi chip.

Okay the iPhone 7 did better in stability but in video quality there wasnt even a contest in that video. The grass and colors look all washed out in the iPhone recording. How is that a win? Sounds like a tradeoff. My conclusion on watching that video is a tie

I think the iphone has more natural colors, but that is subjective as you said.

Nope.Samsung had it first

http://www.androidcentral.com/samsu...ront-facing-led-flash-are-now-available-india

Right, apple doesn't need to include "extra" hardware.

But none of them have all of the hardware I listed.


The point of the dfiscussion is whether iPhone specs are impressive. The iPhone has just taken Android features and mishmashed em together. How is that impressive? Everyone in the Android world rips each other off al the time

I think the iphone specs are impressive considering the 6s still beats the pants off of many competitors. Saying iphone has taken android features is like saying every android phone is a clone because of the wifi and cellular chip. It's the same think.

If you are stuck in 2016,sure. The current POTUS uses a Galaxy.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/trump-android-samsung-phone-security-hacks

"
Unfortunately the president’s love for security doesn’t seem to extend to his smartphone, revealed in the same interview to be an “old, unsecured Android phone”, which he carries around the White House “to the protests of some of his aides”. This contradicts previous reports suggesting Trump traded his handset for a “secure, encrypted device approved by the Secret Service”.

Android Central analyzed images of Trump using his phone and suggested he probably owns a Samsung Galaxy S3, first released in 2012 – a phone so old that it would no longer receive any new security updates or major software releases."

Old, unsecured android phone caught my eye, but we do do POTUS has an iphone. A the former POTUS used idevices for 8 years. However, my 2012 apple devices are receiving updates.

Likely Apple paid em off. Happens all the time. Didnt MS sposnor the Super Bowl to dump Apple and go Surface?

Whatever it takes. Right?
[doublepost=1487681877][/doublepost]

How about a heartbeat check on MR? General mood is not upbeat excitement .

Let's avoid an endless debate here, just look at the buyers guide..... if the current lineup excites you, awesome!

Well I bought a piece of hardware that's in the current lineup a few days ago.

 

[TechGeek76]

Apple hater? That has all apple products? Grow up.

If you don't agree with every incorrect statement he makes, you're a hater.

 

[I7guy]

Only in your mind.
[doublepost=1487681644][/doublepost]You're wasting your time, honestly. You are NEVER going to change this persons mind, they WILL continue to put out incorrect information as long as you allow them and deny actual facts, they don't care to know the truth.

I thought this discussion was on phone hardware, not on posters.

 

[MH01]

Well I bought a piece of hardware that's in the current lineup a few days ago.

Do not buy or buy ?

I'm very happy with my AirPods to be honest . Though mac....

 

[Abazigal]

The problem is that you are years behind in what you think you know.

For example. Huawei is a high end phone company whether you know it or not. Off the top of my head the mate 9 and honor 9 for example are 600.00 phones. Thats just two I know of. Huawei made a HIGHLY rated google nexus 6p. Maybe even another model. I do not remember. The mate and honor are highly rated.

These phones, just 2 off the top of my head, are competing with iphone in china. Period.

Oppo has a 600.00 phone and a 400.00 phone that I know of.

You are seriously not going to claim a chinese based company selling phones at these prices are not making a ton of money? You clearely know nothing of todays chinese phone companies.

Reasonable markup? Sitting on billions? Apple is clearly a bottom line company. not sure why anyone can't see that. Selling products several years old for the same prices (mac pro, macbook air, mac mini).

I chose to go pc laptop (I have a mac) I could get a much better spec'ed laptop from sager for under 1500.00 that is upgradeable including the graphics card that blows away the top macbook pro at a HUGE price difference. Thats an indecent profit margin. Tell me its not bottom line.

To clarify the point you claimed apple has no market competition. This is just 3-4 models that ARE competing with apple and and since they do not have the us overhead apple does possibly even making more money on them.

Any company can change whatever price they want for a phone. Question is - are people buying them, and in what quantities?

 

[Abazigal]

like samsung, sony, LG, HTC......to name a few? Are these companies that will be out of business in five years?

Do you know how silly that sounds?

Market share is not meaningless. The problem is your silly argument that market share means cheap crap, you can achieve market share with quality items. You need to stop thinking that anything not apple is crap.

Nobody is saying that market share is meaningless, just that it is not very meaningful when viewed in a vacuum, without considering price and profit margins as well.

Obviously, neither extreme is desirable. What use is selling a ton of phones if you are barely breaking even on each unit sold? Likewise, if you sell too few phones, high margins on each phone might not be enough to turn a meaningful profit and cover costs.

You need a combination of high volume combined with decent to high margins to make a good profit, and my point is precisely that Apple has both. They easily sell more phones than many other smartphone companies, and each iPhone sold this way is extremely profitable. So Apple literally enjoys the best of both worlds here.

That's the point we are trying to make here.

 

[MH01]

Nobody is saying that market share is meaningless, just that it is not very meaningful when viewed in a vacuum, without considering price and profit margins as well.

Obviously, neither extreme is desirable. What use is selling a ton of phones if you are barely breaking even on each unit sold? Likewise, if you sell too few phones, high margins on each phone might not be enough to turn a meaningful profit and cover costs.

You need a combination of high volume combined with decent to high margins to make a good profit, and my point is precisely that Apple has both. They easily sell more phones than many other smartphone companies, and each iPhone sold this way is extremely profitable. So Apple literally enjoys the best of both worlds here.

That's the point we are trying to make here.

So how about we agree markert share and huge profits is the best outcome

Cause this is just bickering at this point ? No ?

 

[I7guy]

Do not buy or buy ?

I'm very happy with my AirPods to be honest . Though mac....

I want the AirPods but bought the i7.

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

Any company can change whatever price they want for a phone. Question is - are people buying them, and in what quantities?

Of course they can. They charge whatener people will pay. Right now there are more "upper" price androids than ever and my point is huawei has become one of them.

If apple's sales are down that means somebody is buying them. The future will tell how it all goes. Again, the point is that there IS competition there in apple's price range or their sales would not be going down. Whether that is long lasting or not only time will tell.

 

[kdarling]

Together, Apple and Samsung have repeatedly made more than 100% of the industry profits.

This is a good example of why that ridiculous more-than-100% total=profit+loss comparison method does people no favors. It makes it harder for people to visualize what is really going on.

Apple and Samsung together do average 90-95% of the actual total industry profits. That still leaves up to 10% for the other ones who are making money, usually smaller firms. For example, Huawei makes $200 million a quarter, which is only 2% of the total industry profits, but is definitely not a loss.

At the same time, you are correct that some major companies like LG, Sony and HTC do lose money. For HTC, that's really bad. LG and Sony don't seem to care, as they're reportedly only making phones as demos of their technology available for sale.

Profits mean money to invest in the future, so I can buy a better iPhone in a few years. Losing money but gaining market share means less money for R & D, so lower quality iPhones in the future.

Nope, the claim that Apple needs high margins for R&D is demonstrably incorrect.

In fact, Apple famously spends very little of their revenue on R&D. That's why they have a quarter trillion sitting in the bank. It's not being used for anything.

People also have wildly overblown ideas about development costs, and make naive claims about some iPhone feature costing "billions" to develop. Heck, insiders say that the first iPhone only cost $150 million to create, and that included buying expensive test gear. The only "billion dollar" effort I can think of, was the failed GTAT sapphire factory.

By the way, I don't think Apple has a high markup for a capital intensive business. It is high compared to any negative markup, but that's not a fair comparison. A reasonable markup versus a stupid markdown isn't realistic.

Apple has a huge markup compared to other phone makers. They're up around 38%, while Samsung is around 17% (which of course averages in high profit and low profit phones), and all others are much lower. The only other smartphone maker that I can think of who averaged over 30%, was Blackberry (RIM) back in its heyday.

Try this:
Open a browser (download one if necessary) you don't use. Clear its cache and cookies. Now go to a few websites but not Google's or Apple's. Now check your cookies. Who's tracking you, and what's their business case for doing so?

Google is still not selling any personal info, which is what you seem to want to claim. If they did that, they'd be out of business quickly. You don't sell your golden goose (personal info), just the eggs (ad slots).

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

If you don't agree with every incorrect statement he makes, you're a hater.

Exactly.

 

[LordVic]

Try this:
Open a browser (download one if necessary) you don't use. Clear its cache and cookies. Now go to a few websites but not Google's or Apple's. Now check your cookies. Who's tracking you, and what's their business case for doing so?

As for app vs web site, there's no real difference if the OS is compromised, and 99% of Android devices are running an outdated version with well known security issues. Everything you enter can be captured.

That's not how targeted adds work though and you're not responding to the same thing


DOES Google do vast amounts of Data collection: YES
Caveat: So does Apple, Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc, etc. If you're a software company today with public consumer facing technology, chances are data is being "mined"

What your confusion seems to be is what is done with this data:
Myth: Google sells the data to 3rd Party resources.

FACT: Google (et al) does NOT sell any of the data that they collect. Google takes that data. throws it in fancy databases hooked up to vast calculations and data analysis tools (probably backed by AI now) and uses that to determine what sort of profile of ads fits you and everyone else. It then looks to it's advertising partners and sells them ad space based on X amount of potential eyes that might see that ad. If the company choses to purchase the ad space. It goes into a giant pool of Ad's that can potentially be suited to you. So that upon certain triggers (maybe a search, or maybe based on the page you're viewing, or even random) will feed up that add directly to you


At no point in any of Google's, Apples, and every one elses data mining does that company sell any identifyable, or statistical information to a 3rd party.

Not only is that highly unethical But in many countries it's actually illegal to do (illegal in Canada, read the PIPEDA regulation)

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

"Abizgal".

Yes they can. They charge whatever people will pay. Right now there are more "upper" price androids than ever and my point is huawei and a few top companies are some of Them. Some of these names seemingly came out of nowhere in the us. The us is not the whole world though.

I can remember when people said "Japenese knock off companies". The same with korea, their cars and electronics (goldstar was a top korean company). Chinese companies are rising, evolving. Some of these companies are making really good phones right now. More to come, just watch.

If apple's sales are down that means somebody is buying them. The future will tell how it all goes. Again, the point is that there IS competition there in apple's price range or their sales would not be going down. Whether that is long lasting or not only time will tell.

Certain people keep twisting my statements into saying apple is failing or something. I don't think anyone believes that.

There are chinese makers that are emerging as manufacturers of higher price quality phones. They ARE competing in china for the upper Market, these are not "cheap knock off" companies. Thats the whole point. Nothing at all about apple going under, nothing.

Jeez, keep screwing up the posts on my phone. Quotes getting messed up.

 

[LordVic]

Nope, the claim that Apple needs high margins for R&D is demonstrably incorrect.

This bother's me because anyone who repeats that nonsense doesn't understand a bloody thing about Accounting and Budgeting.

To re-inforce your point for anyone who still makes the claim "APPLE NEEDS RECORD PROFITS FOR R&D" and why.

Example numbers for simplicity:
In Accounting, the formula for profit is simple: Revenue (income) - Costs = Profit.
So the "PROFIT" claimed already counts the existing R&D that is in the budget. R&D IS ALREADY COVERED IN THE COSTS AND IS ALREADY ACOUNTED FOR IN THE PROFIT CALCULATION.

those profits are profit above and beyond R&D. Sure, profits mean next year you can increase R&D costs, but in Apple's cases, thats' really not happening. R&D isn't ballooning in any way to match the profits.

typically when that happens, and you start having a lot of quick, short term assets (Such as cash), good financially prudent companies will redistribute those profits either throughout the workforce (they can now afford to pay staff more) or towards investors in the form of dividends.

Now we lal know Apple and it's history: They rarely pass the profits through with dividends and it takes years for Apple to make changes to their payout, and they sure as heck aren't trickling down all those profits to their employees.

Those profits are sitting in off shore banks right now. not being used for anything.

THat is not only terrible business, but thats also HORRIBLE economics.

 

[I7guy]

This is a good example of why that ridiculous more-than-100% total=profit+loss comparison method does people no favors. It makes it harder for people to visualize what is really going on.

Apple and Samsung together do average 90-95% of the actual total industry profits. That still leaves up to 10% for the other ones who are making money, usually smaller firms. For example, Huawei makes $200 million a quarter, which is only 2% of the total industry profits, but is definitely not a loss.

At the same time, you are correct that some major companies like LG, Sony and HTC do lose money. For HTC, that's really bad. LG and Sony don't seem to care, as they're reportedly only making phones as demos of their technology available for sale.



Nope, the claim that Apple needs high margins for R&D is demonstrably incorrect.

In fact, Apple famously spends very little of their revenue on R&D. That's why they have a quarter trillion sitting in the bank. It's not being used for anything.

People also have wildly overblown ideas about development costs, and make naive claims about some iPhone feature costing "billions" to develop. Heck, insiders say that the first iPhone only cost $150 million to create, and that included buying expensive test gear. The only "billion dollar" effort I can think of, was the failed GTAT sapphire factory.



Apple has a huge markup compared to other phone makers. They're up around 38%, while Samsung is around 17% (which of course averages in high profit and low profit phones), and all others are much lower. The only other smartphone maker that I can think of who averaged over 30%, was Blackberry (RIM) back in its heyday.



Google is still not selling any personal info, which is what you seem to want to claim. If they did that, they'd be out of business quickly. You don't sell your golden goose (personal info), just the eggs (ad slots).

There was an article about how they might be passing pii to their advertising partners. I have to find it. /ot

 

[kdarling]

There was an article about how they might be passing pii to their advertising partners. I have to find it. /ot

I know the article you're talking about. What people didn't notice was the fact that Google BOUGHT that firm, so it had became part of Google.

Now, it's true that both Google and Apple state in their privacy policies that they can provide personal info to partners if they feel it's necessary to complete a transaction or "provide better service". However, those partners are supposed to keep the information private as well.

So in both Apple and Google's cases, that's still not the same as SELLING personal info to third parties.

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

This bother's me because anyone who repeats that nonsense doesn't understand a bloody thing about Accounting and Budgeting.

To re-inforce your point for anyone who still makes the claim "APPLE NEEDS RECORD PROFITS FOR R&D" and why.

Example numbers for simplicity:
In Accounting, the formula for profit is simple: Revenue (income) - Costs = Profit.
So the "PROFIT" claimed already counts the existing R&D that is in the budget. R&D IS ALREADY COVERED IN THE COSTS AND IS ALREADY ACOUNTED FOR IN THE PROFIT CALCULATION.

those profits are profit above and beyond R&D. Sure, profits mean next year you can increase R&D costs, but in Apple's cases, thats' really not happening. R&D isn't ballooning in any way to match the profits.

typically when that happens, and you start having a lot of quick, short term assets (Such as cash), good financially prudent companies will redistribute those profits either throughout the workforce (they can now afford to pay staff more) or towards investors in the form of dividends.

Now we lal know Apple and it's history: They rarely pass the profits through with dividends and it takes years for Apple to make changes to their payout, and they sure as heck aren't trickling down all those profits to their employees.

Those profits are sitting in off shore banks right now. not being used for anything.

THat is not only terrible business, but thats also HORRIBLE economics.

Bingo. R&D is already covered, net profits are AFTER R&D is taken out. It's all about bottom line, cooks millions in bonuses, etc. It amazes me that customers go to any length to defend obscene profit margins.

Clearly they can charge what they want as long as people support and defend this, but if customers acted like customers and not mini tim cooks then prices would come down. Cook getting millions in bonuses does nothing whatsoever for me.

 

[Carnegie]

This bother's me because anyone who repeats that nonsense doesn't understand a bloody thing about Accounting and Budgeting.

To re-inforce your point for anyone who still makes the claim "APPLE NEEDS RECORD PROFITS FOR R&D" and why.

Example numbers for simplicity:
In Accounting, the formula for profit is simple: Revenue (income) - Costs = Profit.
So the "PROFIT" claimed already counts the existing R&D that is in the budget. R&D IS ALREADY COVERED IN THE COSTS AND IS ALREADY ACOUNTED FOR IN THE PROFIT CALCULATION.

those profits are profit above and beyond R&D. Sure, profits mean next year you can increase R&D costs, but in Apple's cases, thats' really not happening. R&D isn't ballooning in any way to match the profits.

typically when that happens, and you start having a lot of quick, short term assets (Such as cash), good financially prudent companies will redistribute those profits either throughout the workforce (they can now afford to pay staff more) or towards investors in the form of dividends.

Now we lal know Apple and it's history: They rarely pass the profits through with dividends and it takes years for Apple to make changes to their payout, and they sure as heck aren't trickling down all those profits to their employees.

Those profits are sitting in off shore banks right now. not being used for anything.

THat is not only terrible business, but thats also HORRIBLE economics.

Sure, R&D expenses are already accounted for when a company reports its earnings. But when it comes to considering margins, we have to be careful what kind of margins we're referring to.

The gross margins which get reported (and which are probably what most people refer to when they refer to Apple's margins) do not account for R&D expenses. Looking at Apple's fiscal year 2016, e.g., its gross margin was about 39%. But if you account for R&D expenses its margin was about 34%. Accounting for R&D expenses and other operating expenses its margin was about 28%. That was its real pre-tax (operating) margin for the year. That's still a pretty good margin, no doubt.

Regarding increases in R&D expenses: It's true that Apple doesn't spend all (or even most) of its prior profits on R&D expenses. But its R&D expenses growth is more than outpacing its revenue and earnings growth. Between 2012 and 2016 Apple's R&D expenses increased from $3.4 billion to $10.0 billion. Revenue increased from $157 billion to $216 billion and earnings increased from $42 billion to $46 billion during that time. For 2013 through 2016, the YoY R&D expenses increases were 32%, 35%, 34% and 25% respectively. In other words, Apple is spending a much higher portion of its revenue and of its profits on R&D than it did 4 years ago.

Regarding returning capital to shareholders: Over the last 4 years Apple has returned more capital to shareholders than it has made in profit for those 4 years. It is true that up until (and through most of) 2012 it wasn't returning much to shareholders, its unused earnings were accumulating as a big (net of debt) pile of cash. But since then it has been returning those profits to shareholders at an incredible rate and its cash pile (net of debt) has not been building nearly as fast as it would have otherwise.

 

[I7guy]

Bingo. R&D is already covered, net profits are AFTER R&D is taken out. It's all about bottom line, cooks millions in bonuses, etc. It amazes me that customers go to any length to defend obscene profit margins.

Clearly they can charge what they want as long as people support and defend this, but if customers acted like customers and not mini tim cooks then prices would come down. Cook getting millions in bonuses does nothing whatsoever for me.

Why do people care what their profit margins are? Apple provides a service and people buy their service. What do manager bonuses have to do with this?

 

[Radon87000]

Neither does any Samsung phone. Also, is hardware being discussed or design choices. I'm happy I can buy a phone with larger bezels and the worlds most accurate display. And not have outdated technology such as Samsung Pay. Apple rumoring to put in an iris scanner is like Samsung including a wifi chip.

->Calls Samsung Pay outdated
->Likes bezels and LCD displays

The irony

I think the iphone has more natural colors, but that is subjective as you said.

Both display and camera of the iPhone look washed out compared to Samsung. Is washed out= more natural colors? Because the real world is in fact saturated with colors and not lifeless

Right, apple doesn't need to include "extra" hardware.

As long as they both do the same thing Samsung did it first.

I think the iphone specs are impressive considering the 6s still beats the pants off of many competitors. Saying iphone has taken android features is like saying every android phone is a clone because of the wifi and cellular chip. It's the same think.

Only speed and iPhone only wins if you do a lot of gaming.Real world usage they are neck and neck.Cant say the same for displays though. Tell me ONE Android phone which has a second screen and a curved edge display and is not a Samsung/LG. They invented it

Old, unsecured android phone caught my eye, but we do do POTUS has an iphone.

Thats the opinion of the author of the article.That S3 has the most recent version of Play Services and is recieving daily app updates and unlike the 2012 iPad devices, runs decently fast.

The POTUS has an iPhone but the device he carries with him while tweeting and other stuff is the Galaxy based on the news article

Well I bought a piece of hardware that's in the current lineup a few days ago.

Which the OLED iPhone 8 is going to mop the floor with in a few months
[doublepost=1487703648][/doublepost]

Why do people care what their profit margins are? Apple provides a service and people buy their service. What do manager bonuses have to do with this?

It matters if you are getting ripped off.

 

[I7guy]

->Calls Samsung Pay outdated
->Likes bezels and LCD displays

The irony

The irony is correct considering opinions put forth in this forum.

Both display and camera of the iPhone look washed out compared to Samsung. Is washed out= more natural colors? Because the real world is in fact saturated with colors and not lifeless

Saturated not over saturated which the galaxy has a tendency to do.

As long as they both do the same thing Samsung did it first.

Apple tends to do things better; Touch ID, Live Photos, 3dt etc

Only speed and iPhone only wins if you do a lot of gaming.Real world usage they are neck and neck.Cant say the same for displays though. Tell me ONE Android phone which has a second screen and a curved edge display and is not a Samsung/LG. They invented it

So now the innards are irrelevant? Who invented oled btw? And yes I can say the same for displays I'd rather have a solid soc.

Thats the opinion of the author of the article.That S3 has the most recent version of Play Services and is recieving daily app updates and unlike the 2012 iPad devices, runs decently fast.

My 2011 iPad 2 runs fine, 2012 Idevices are in iOS 10.

The POTUS has an iPhone but the device he carries with him while tweeting and other stuff is the Galaxy based on the news article

Ex POTUS used an idevice, what does that say?

Which the OLED iPhone 8 is going to mop the floor with in a few months
[doublepost=1487703648][/doublepost]
It matters if you are getting ripped off.

Mopping the floor, no hyperbole in that sentence and who is getting ripped off and can you prove it?

 

[Larry-K]

Only in your mind.

You, of course, mean the minds of the majority.

But feel free to continue voicing your support for the mentally ill.

 

[TechGeek76]

But feel free to continue voicing your support for the mentally ill.

yawn......