Apple Loses Fourth Place to Xiaomi in Booming China Smartphone Market

stevet

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Apr 16, 2009
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This is by far the worst news for Apple. China and India are the largest growing markets, to be 4th in one of them and nonexistent in the other is a bad sign of things to come.
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And that's just your opinion. IOS is the only phone OS I'd trust to do my banking, and that's a major reason for buying a smartphone. For example, Google's business model (mining your data to monetize it) guarantees that it will never be secure enough to use for checking my balance, let alone making payments of any kind. Then there's the fact that 99% of Android phones are not using the latest version of the OS and can't upgrade because their phone company won't let them. Talk about crippled! Old versions have the most known security issues, so upgrading to the latest version is critical if you want your phone to be truly useful.

Why does banking have anything to do with iOS? The apps that the banks use or the websites are secure. Your banking information isn't stored in the phone.
 

cwt2nospam

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Nov 19, 2016
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Why does banking have anything to do with iOS? The apps that the banks use or the websites are secure. Your banking information isn't stored in the phone.
My username and password is stored on the phone! I'd never consider storing any password in Android. It's unbelievable to me that you would think you have any chance of being secure using using that OS! If you haven't had your identity stolen already, it's because criminals just haven't gotten to you yet.
 
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stevet

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Apr 16, 2009
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End of the day the marketshare doesn't matter when there is a race to the bottom between the other vendors slitting each others throats whilst Apple runs off with 90% of the profit - Apple is smart not engaging in the race to the bottom in favour of preserving the brand. Eventually those buying the low end phones will want to upgrade to Apple which has the status that comes with owning a foreign brand - why destroy your brand for temporary short term marketshare when you can play the long game?

I agree with your point, however Apple is not only losing share, they are losing sales so they are losing in the bottom line too.

Edit - I don't agree that people upgrade to more expensive phones, people buying or getting cheaper phones realize they can do everything they need to do on the cheaper ones and the more expensive ones become irrelevant.
 
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MrNomNoms

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Jan 25, 2011
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Wellington, New Zealand
I'm guessing you're an Apple investor.
No, I'm an end user who realises that a health Apple translates to a healthy ecosystem that has great software and hardware to choose from; a thriving iOS ecosystem benefits me which benefits Apple just as a thriving macOS ecosystem benefits me and Apple. Honestly, you'd sooner have the situation of Microsoft where they have 90% of the marketplace and their partners are about as excited about Windows future as one about the idea of contracting gonorrhoea?

I agree with your point, however Apple is not only losing share, they are losing sales so they are losing in the bottom line too.
True but there are a lot of things at play that I believe Apple cannot control so we'll have to see how things play out because I honestly believe even if they magically made the iPhone cheaper you'd still be dealing with the 'hyper nationalism' of Chinese consumers akin to what one observes in Korea - very much insular societies but then again that is very similar to American consumers being less open to Chinese, Korean and Japanese mobile phone brands.
 

stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
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My username and password is stored on the phone! I'd never consider storing any password in Android. It's unbelievable to me that you would think you have any chance of being secure using using that OS! If you haven't had your identity stolen already, it's because criminals just haven't gotten to you yet.
Using what OS? I never mentioned any OS other than iOS. And if you think that is a safe practice saving your password and username for financial institutions in your browsers password keychain you are putting too much faith into something you really don't know is secure.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,343
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This is by far the worst news for Apple. China and India are the largest growing markets, to be 4th in one of them and nonexistent in the other is a bad sign of things to come.
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Why does banking have anything to do with iOS? The apps that the banks use or the websites are secure. Your banking information isn't stored in the phone.
Those other units include lots of $200 Android phones. So while it isn't a good thing to be fourth, it isn't really that much of an issue. Unless Apple decides to sell phones at a new lower price point, they will never be the biggest seller in the China. But it is a bad sign that total sales have gone down. China might becomes like South Korea where the population has a clear preference for the homegrown brand. And actually this is pretty normal. You will still see a ton of Blackberrys in Canada. And the U.S. is dominated by the iPhone designed in California. Go to the Scandinavian countries and they are the last hold out for Nokia phones.
 

stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
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Those other units include lots of $200 Android phones. So while it isn't a good thing to be fourth, it isn't really that much of an issue. Unless Apple decides to sell phones at a new lower price point, they will never be the biggest seller in the China. But it is a bad sign that total sales have gone down. China might becomes like South Korea where the population has a clear preference for the homegrown brand. And actually this is pretty normal. You will still see a ton of Blackberrys in Canada. And the U.S. is dominated by the iPhone designed in California. Go to the Scandinavian countries and they are the last hold out for Nokia phones.
I agree, I think it's more of an issue that they dropped year over year by a significant amount ni their own sales.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
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True but there are a lot of things at play that I believe Apple cannot control so we'll have to see how things play out because I honestly believe even if they magically made the iPhone cheaper you'd still be dealing with the 'hyper nationalism' of Chinese consumers akin to what one observes in Korea - very much insular societies but then again that is very similar to American consumers being less open to Chinese, Korean and Japanese mobile phone brands.
And the hyper nationalism of Canadians and Blackberry and the hyper nationalism of the Finns and Nokia. We've really seen this same preference for the homegrown handset in every market. The home team really had to fall on its face before it lost its market share.
 

cwt2nospam

macrumors regular
Nov 19, 2016
119
41
Using what OS? I never mentioned any OS other than iOS. And if you think that is a safe practice saving your password and username for financial institutions in your browsers password keychain you are putting too much faith into something you really don't know is secure.
And what OS do you think these other phones come with???
The fact is that you don't need to store your password anywhere to have it stolen. Simply typing it on an Android phone (in an app or a browser) can be enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging This is where a walled garden becomes important.
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It's not the best phone. It's the best iPhone.
Since the others are highly insecure, color-oversaturated play things, the best iPhone is the best phone.
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,115
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And what OS do you think these other phones come with???
The fact is that you don't need to store your password anywhere to have it stolen. Simply typing it on an Android phone (in an app or a browser) can be enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging This is where a walled garden becomes important.
[doublepost=1487425910][/doublepost]
Since the others are highly insecure, color-oversaturated play things, the best iPhone is the best phone.
In your opinion
 

stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
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dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
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And what OS do you think these other phones come with???
The fact is that you don't need to store your password anywhere to have it stolen. Simply typing it on an Android phone (in an app or a browser) can be enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging This is where a walled garden becomes important.
[doublepost=1487425910][/doublepost]
Since the others are highly insecure, color-oversaturated play things, the best iPhone is the best phone.
Doesn't the president of the US have an Android phone?
 

cwt2nospam

macrumors regular
Nov 19, 2016
119
41
In your opinion
Sales figures say nothing. Profitability speaks. If I could sell cars at one dollar each I'd outsell the entire car industry, never mind the fact that I'd be losing money and my cars would be terrible.
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Doesn't the president of the US have an Android phone?
No, he doesn't. There's no way to make it secure.
 

stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
266
570
Sales figures say nothing. Profitability speaks. If I could sell cars at one dollar each I'd outsell the entire car industry, never mind the fact that I'd be losing money and my cars would be terrible.
[doublepost=1487426921][/doublepost]
No, he doesn't. There's no way to make it secure.

You clearly don't understand business. The bolded comment above proves that. Why do you think they compare sales qtr to qtr yr to yr? Cause they matter.
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,115
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Sales figures say nothing. Profitability speaks. If I could sell cars at one dollar each I'd outsell the entire car industry, never mind the fact that I'd be losing money and my cars would be terrible.
yeah, took that bit off before you quoted post, wasn't what I was meaning when I wrote it...

What I was meaning was there is a lot of choice out there and Apple sells just a fraction of all the phones out there.
We have 4 iPhones in our household, 2 have been retired and it looks like the other two will be retired at some point.
So Apple must be doing some thing wrong. Perhaps not in terms of increasing their profit each year, but that surely can't go on for ever.

I think that the cheaper brands are catching up to the premium phone brands and the others like Samsung and the like are just as good. All the cream of the crop have their pros and cons.
 

Carnegie

macrumors 6502a
May 24, 2012
599
1,241
If anyone here has shopped for Apple products in China...

Can you tell me what the regular retail price (e.g. the price in Apple's own stores or online) for particular Apple products is? I'm asking for the price in the local currency, not in U.S. Dollars. If you can tell me the price for particular models (e.g. iPhone 7 Plus 128GB), that would be appreciated. And also, when that price was from (e.g. within the last 3 months or 2 years ago)?

Operating margins for Apple's Greater China segment have generally been higher than for its America and Europe Segments. So I'm curious about pricing there (and, for that matter, in Japan).

Thanks in advance.
 

cwt2nospam

macrumors regular
Nov 19, 2016
119
41
You clearly don't understand business. The bolded comment above proves that. Why do you think they compare sales qtr to qtr yr to yr? Cause they matter.
LOL! They do that on Wall Street, where managing expectations is the game. Have you ever seriously tried to get any real information out of so-called "articles" written by Wall Street analysts? They're not providing any! They're just selling you on the idea that they know what they're talking about. Shipments and marketshare are easy to play with, and since they have no real meaning the analyst can give them any meaning they like.
 

stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
266
570
LOL! They do that on Wall Street, where managing expectations is the game. Have you ever seriously tried to get any real information out of so-called "articles" written by Wall Street analysts? They're not providing any! They're just selling you on the idea that they know what they're talking about. Shipments and marketshare are easy to play with, and since they have no real meaning the analyst can give them any meaning they like.
What are you talking about? Apple releases their quarterly sales figures for the iPhone.

Edit - And I noticed you didn't respond to the link I posted to you about iOS key loggers and malware for iOS.
 

cwt2nospam

macrumors regular
Nov 19, 2016
119
41
I think that the cheaper brands are catching up to the premium phone brands and the others like Samsung and the like are just as good. All the cream of the crop have their pros and cons.
That's an inevitable consequence of a maturing market. The difference in the end will be security. Google's business model is built on selling information, and it can get a lot of information from your phone, unless it makes it secure. That's the key, because if they can get into your stuff, so can others. They're not going to give up the goose that lays golden eggs: Android will not be secure.
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What are you talking about? Apple releases their quarterly sales figures for the iPhone.

Edit - And I noticed you didn't respond to the link I posted to you about iOS key loggers and malware for iOS.
Yes, they release that information to.... drumroll please.... WALL STREET! Corporations have to play the game. By the way, there is a lot of other information released along with it. Much is more important than marketshare. Profitability, for example. Analyst find that difficult to manipulate though, so they prefer to use marketshare.

Your response ignored the "walled garden" from my response. Should I be surprised that people who jail broke their iPhones wound up in the same trouble as Android users? Really, you're just proving my point: The walled garden is an important advantage for the iPhone.
 
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stevet

macrumors 6502
Apr 16, 2009
266
570
That's an inevitable consequence of a maturing market. The difference in the end will be security. Google's business model is built on selling information, and it can get a lot of information from your phone, unless it makes it secure. That's the key, because if they can get into your stuff, so can others. They're not going to give up the goose that lays golden eggs: Android will not be secure.
[doublepost=1487427872][/doublepost]
Yes, they release that information to.... drumroll please.... WALL STREET! Corporations have to play the game.

Your response ignored the "walled garden" from my response. Should I be surprised that people who jail broke their iPhones wound up in the same trouble as Android users? Really, you're just proving my point: The walled garden is an important advantage for the iPhone.
You didn't follow the link, they aren't just jailbroken phones that are susceptible. It's clear to me. that you don't understand security. So I'll leave you with this, you are the type of person that all hackers love. You have put the utmost trust into something that you really have no idea how secure it is. So you keep storing your passwords and usernames into browsers keychains and in the cloud and cross your fingers that it's never obtained by someone malicious.
[doublepost=1487428281][/doublepost]
That's an inevitable consequence of a maturing market. The difference in the end will be security. Google's business model is built on selling information, and it can get a lot of information from your phone, unless it makes it secure. That's the key, because if they can get into your stuff, so can others. They're not going to give up the goose that lays golden eggs: Android will not be secure.
[doublepost=1487427872][/doublepost]
Yes, they release that information to.... drumroll please.... WALL STREET! Corporations have to play the game. By the way, there is a lot of other information released along with it. Much is more important than marketshare. Profitability, for example. Analyst find that difficult to manipulate though, so they prefer to use marketshare.
Are you suggesting that Apple lies when it posts its quarterly and yearly earnings and sales figures? Once again, you're hung up on market share, when it's the 30% drop in year over year sales of Apples iPhones in china that is the point.
 
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mainstreetmark

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May 7, 2003
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Why do I get the feeling the iPhone 8 won't live up to expectations? :rolleyes:
Because it's become impossible for Apple to live up to people's expectations. Someone will hate it because it doesn't have wireless charging. Someone will hate it because it costs too much. Someone will hate it because it doesn't run Xcode. Someone will hate it because it doesn't have USBC (and then someone else will hate it because of lightning)
 
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needsomecoffee

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May 6, 2008
154
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It seems pretty clear now that Tim's plan is for Apple to be the luxury HW brand (with associated margins). BMW, Coach, Rolex, etc. - there is a ton of business there. Pretty sure they will continue to dominate that category, and piss off hard-core hardware users who look at PC (in particular) as tools. On the opposite side to this argument is Tim's desire to find growth in services. This is where their high margin model is going to hurt vs. Google and Amazon. Sad that they can not find the resources to do both. What is ABSOLUTELY certain is that Apple has something afoot with AR. No way does a CEO like Tim keep talking about it being the next new thing unless Apple is close. (He could be providing mis-information to mislead competitors, but I doubt it.)
 

joueboy

macrumors 68000
Jul 3, 2008
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Any Apple products will be a hard sell in any 3rd world countries and that's a fact. You're pretty much taking food from their entire family table for months in most of their population. But there's a market especially for the rich citizens and those who are willing to sell their life to get one. But I like what I'm seeing here, a healthy competition for everyone. With the rumor of a thousand dollar iPhone even first world citizens starts realizing that. Android phones had come a long way and the experience gap between those two are getting closer. I myself as a long time Apple user been pondering lately. I'm not quite there yet but I started reading and watching reviews. One thing for sure I'm not leaving behind is the MacOS. Unfortunately it looks like Apple is the one losing interest.
 

cwt2nospam

macrumors regular
Nov 19, 2016
119
41
You didn't follow the link, they aren't just jailbroken phones that are susceptible.

...

Are you suggesting that Apple lies when it posts its quarterly and yearly earnings and sales figures?
Are you referring to this part of the walled garden?
Make sure that System Preferences on you Mac are set to: ‘Allow apps downloaded from: Mac App Store and identified developers’.
FYI: I'm not claiming the Mac, or even IOS, is 100% secure. Nothing is, but they're both far more secure than Android.

I'm suggesting that fluctuations in sales figures are to be expected when your competition is desperately buying marketshare. Remaining profitable is the key, since the competition can only do that until they've run out of money.