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Apple Loses UK Antitrust Lawsuit Over App Store Fees, Faces £1.5 Billion in Damages

code-m said:
Wake me up when you can make phone calls, surf the web, etc on a Nintendo Switch/2 or others like a computer.
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PS4 had a full web browser. My PS5 lets me download apps like Netflix, Hulu, Apple TV, Prime, and Disney+. These aren’t games, they’re general-purpose media apps.

The only reason the PS5 doesn’t have a full browser right now is because Sony chooses to block it, not because it’s technically impossible. If regulators forced the platform open, we’d see one overnight.

So pretending consoles are “purely gaming devices” while iPhones are “general-purpose” is a distinction built entirely on policy, not capability. The hardware and software can do it. It’s the "gatekeeper" (to borrow a madeup term) that decides what you’re allowed to install on your PS5. The only difference is Sony makes close to 100% of its revenue from PlayStation software sales of games, and Apple only makes 70% of its App Store revenue from software sales of games.

So open Sony up!
 
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What does "but can it make phone calls" have to do with opening a platform up? lmao that's a serious reach in trying to make a distinction.

For the longest time, iPad couldn't make native phone calls. Does that mean iPhone should be open but iPad remains closed? If you're talking about any call then all major game consoles today have "phone calls".
 
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diddl14 said:
The whole sales process, taxation, and even refunds became a no-brainer. The 30% commission was never an issue.
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Perhaps you would also be a billionaire today if you had realized all along what you get from Apple in return for them keeping a third of your income.
Namely, nothing.
You pay 30% to be allowed to use a platform.
You have to use it; there is no alternative if you want to reach 30 to 70% of your target audience, depending on the country.

And you're grateful to pay an access tax?
 
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Apple's argument that Android and other platforms were viable alternatives for consumers and developers was rejected.
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Agreed for that time period up to 2020, but it’s been changing in recent years. 😉
 
diddl14 said:
This is just so sickening.

I put my first app on the App Store more than 10 years ago. Without Apple, I would never have been able to achieve such enormous market reach. The whole sales process, taxation, and even refunds became a no-brainer. The 30% commission was never an issue.

Would I have made my app cheaper if the commission had been only 5 or 10%? Or used another store provider with a lower commission? I don't think so.

All of this is just a non-issue and it’s outrageous that legislators believe they have to cash in on Apple "on behalf of developers and consumers."
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I think there is a lot of confusion here. As an analogy it’s like someone listing a product on Amazon and is charged a certain percentage and another percentage on using ONLY Amazon pay service so in total 30% (as in Apple’s AppStore case).

So to list or host the product and the seller can ONLY USE Amazon’s pay system for a total of 30% fees to Amazon. Now if the seller says I don’t mind paying a listing fee but I can find a better rate for transactions and Amazon says nope it’s either our way or the highway. Now the seller has to offer up its product for a higher price to make up for Amazon’s cut or go elsewhere. Considering Amazon has a large footprint globally the seller has little recourse to just swallow the terms which is anticompetitive.
 
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turbineseaplane said:
Or do your banking or are required to use certain apps for your work, insurance, living situation, etc.

Game consoles and that whole market have nothing to do with the smart phone conversation.
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Boggles my mind some people are even trying to make a comparison to game consoles.

Which is used for communication, commerce, navigation, and many other daily life essentials?

Is Sony selling 200M+ units of PS4 annually like Apple sells iPhone?
 
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con2apple said:
And you're grateful to pay an access tax?
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While Apple has made changes to the access tax after litigation the question is what is the true cost of that access tax considering the late Steve Jobs wanted free apps on the AppStore to promote its usage and app developers already pay an annual fee. So what is the access or listing fee, should it be 1-10%, should the dev tools membership not cover it either partially or completely. What is the right answer considering apps were be encouraged to be offered for free if not 99 cents. If Apple can host many free or sub $1 apps on the AppStore it indicates that the cost to operate this is not being transparent.
 
code-m said:
I think there is a lot of confusion here. As an analogy it’s like someone listing a product on Amazon and is charged a certain percentage and another percentage on using ONLY Amazon pay service so in total 30% (as in Apple’s AppStore case).

So to list or host the product and the seller can ONLY USE Amazon’s pay system for a total of 30% fees to Amazon. Now if the seller says I don’t mind paying a listing fee but I can find a better rate for transactions and Amazon says nope it’s either our way or the highway. Now the seller has to offer up its product for a higher price to make up for Amazon’s cut or go elsewhere. Considering Amazon has a large footprint globally the seller has little recourse to just swallow the terms which is anticompetitive.
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Apple Pay is a thing.
And App Store has strong competition against Google Play Store.
 
Developers were forced into using Apple's in-app purchase system and had no alternative to paying up to a 30 percent commission during that time period. The excessive fees ultimately led to higher prices for consumers.

No alternative? They could sell on Android couldn't they? Google charges the same initial 30% however so not sure how it would be excessive if everyone seems to be charging that initial rate (it goes down a lot after certain conditions are met). What percent is considered not excessive? Apple has broken down how much they truly provide in value. And companies like Epic say the number should be 0. Aka all the value and services and trust apple provides should cost them 0. Yet clearly companies find selling to Apple customers valuable than say side loading on android.

If with side loading on iPhones, Apple provides value and thus charges for that specific value. But Apple has not wanted to do that, because when people get apps that cause issues for their device, and customer is upset, the customer will complain about "apple" and not think their battery life is low because of some particular app they previously side loaded. Or any other countless issues that could arise.

Apple has been in the wrong I believe on several specific items, but this overall doesn't make sense to me. But I'm sure it will work it way, and it continues to be enough of an issue for companies like Apple and Google then could make the decision to pull out of certain markets such as the UK as the nuclear option.
 
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JPack said:
Boggles my mind some people are even trying to make a comparison to game consoles.

Which is used for communication, commerce, navigation, and many other daily life essentials?

Is Sony selling 200M+ units of PS4 annually like Apple sells iPhone?
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How would you like to pay for that purchase Sir/Maam, hold on let me take out my Nintendo Switch. Why does your store not offer Nintendo Pay? I don’t know Sir/Maam you have to ask Nintendo that question. 😝
 
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surferfb said:
It’s the "gatekeeper" (to borrow a madeup term) that decides what you’re allowed to install on your PS5. The only difference is Sony makes close to 100% of its revenue from PlayStation software sales of games, and Apple only makes 70% of its App Store revenue from software sales of games.
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I don't even know how to respond to such nonsense.
This is on par with people who are convinced that the earth is flat. I don't know where to start refuting this Niveau.

Perhaps with the blatant lie that Sony would charge a 100% fee?
For those who apparently can't do math: that would mean that the game developers wouldn't get a single cent from the sales.
And especially for you: Sony doesn't charge any fees at all for developers to offer games for the PS5.

Besides, what's with this misuse of the word "gatekeeper"?
So far, Sony has not been known to block games or apps because they contradict the company's moral values. Only Apple has done that so far.

And how many developers do you know who have to develop games for the PS5 because there is practically no alternative?
That's right, none. That's because there is fierce competition from Xbox, computers, smartphones, the internet, and Nintendo.
But hey, who cares about facts, right?
 
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JPack said:
Boggles my mind some people are even trying to make a comparison to game consoles.

Which is used for communication, commerce, navigation, and many other daily life essentials?
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Something that PS Vita did already?
communication: https://blog.playstation.com/2012/04/24/ps-vita-gets-skype-video-and-voice-calling-today/
commerce: https://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/psvita/browser/index.html
navigation: https://manuals.playstation.net/document/gb/psvita/maps/screens.html
 
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surferfb said:
Not actually true (there are digital-only consoles) And they all still pay 30% to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. Somehow I don't think people arguing to "open up the app store" would be ok if Apple still got to charge their 15-30% on apps purchased on third party stores.
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Not true

I could care less what happens on game consoles. Go after them and break them up or whatever …

It’s a completely different category of device and situation and not really relevant to this discussion.
 
TechRemarker said:
Developers were forced into using Apple's in-app purchase system and had no alternative to paying up to a 30 percent commission during that time period. The excessive fees ultimately led to higher prices for consumers.

No alternative? They could sell on Android couldn't they? Google charges the same initial 30% however so not sure how it would be excessive if everyone seems to be charging that initial rate (it goes down a lot after certain conditions are met). What percent is considered not excessive? Apple has broken down how much they truly provide in value. And companies like Epic say the number should be 0. Aka all the value and services and trust apple provides should cost them 0. Yet clearly companies find selling to Apple customers valuable than say side loading on android.

If with side loading on iPhones, Apple provides value and thus charges for that specific value. But Apple has not wanted to do that, because when people get apps that cause issues for their device, and customer is upset, the customer will complain about "apple" and not think their battery life is low because of some particular app they previously side loaded. Or any other countless issues that could arise.

Apple has been in the wrong I believe on several specific items, but this overall doesn't make sense to me. But I'm sure it will work it way, and it continues to be enough of an issue for companies like Apple and Google then could make the decision to pull out of certain markets such as the UK as the nuclear option.
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Comparing an open OS like Android and the PlayStore to iOS AppStore with a lot of restrictions indicates to me how weak your understanding is of the matter. To make the situation worse there is nothing stopping Apple or others from offering different fees to developers but I believe you can use external payment methods on the PlayStore.
 
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germanbeer007 said:
Cool, so Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo should be next, right? Or is it Apple because you made some arbitrary distinction that the App Store is nothing like the others...?
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Exactly. I’m a developer and I know it costs an absolute **** ton of money to run an App Store. The fees Apple charges isn’t much at all especially concerning what it used to cost to host an app before app stores showed up.

Google, Steam, Nintendo, Sony, etc all charge 30%. Apple is 30% if you make over a million, otherwise it’s only 15%.
 
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