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As if I needed one, this is a perfect example of the kind of baloney I referred to above. You make this argument with absolutely no data to back it up, nothing more than your own opinion -- and then have the gall to paint anyone who might not agree as "Mac elitists" making "smart-ass comments."

Did you ever take economics either MACRO or MICRO in college? My guess is NO otherwise you would not have stuck your foot in your mouth. When you are a premium product by definition you have a smaller market-share. That is simply the law of economics - have you heard of that, right? Give me a break - I went to college and took economics for years. Just because Steve decides to go a different direction than commonly held economic principals does make him right. He drove Apple into the ground and was ousted once before so he is fallible - contrary to what the hoards of Apple zealots think.

And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side. This is a RUMORS forum and I have every right to say what I want when I want to without any crap from someone like you. I can express my OPINION based on ANYTHING I like! And you, my friend, fit the bill to a T in my first comment.

Merry Christmas and here is to LOWER Apple prices...

D
 
Simply indicative of consumer spending in the worst economic scare since 1982, any other argument is wishful thinking.
 
i dont know about you guys...but i liked my 7.7% discount on my macbook on black friday......

imporant to note once again: macbook sales are still postive. Desktop computers are the problem (will be solved in January).

It would be nice if we could get a mid-range tower. An iMac is NOT the same thing at all.
 
Let's say you're 100% correct and Apple hit this "saturation point". Nobody else on earth wants to switch to a Mac. All of their sales are now going to existing Mac owners. The question then becomes this: Does Apple care?

I'd say no, they don't. Their company is magnitudes smaller than companies like Microsoft (who don't even attempt to build a computer -- only an operating system, applications for it, and some peripherals). They're really not equipped to *handle* having too much "market share".

Rather than cutting a lot of corners to offer cheap Macs "for the masses", Apple went a different route -- selling iPods and iPhones and Apple TV boxes that appeal to "everyone else", with lower, more affordable price-points.

Apple knows and practices something their competitors obviously forgot all about. Often, it's a better place to be as a company selling your goods to a smaller, but loyal audience, than to try to provide the "standard issue" products sold everywhere and used by everyone.

To use the "food analogy", many people invested in a McDonalds franchise, because it's proven to be a money-maker and has huge popularity. Nonetheless, gourmet chefs still enjoy a good living running high-end gourmet restaurants. Which one winds up more "respected" for putting out a quality product?

Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.

D
 
Flat is flat not going down and it has everything to do with the economy.....

Ideally, of course, one would want consistent growth, but even a flat rate means Apple is still selling lots of computers.

This is an indicator that Apple need to the following;
1) Update desktop lineups more often/consistently
2) Offer something between The Core 2 Duo iMac, and the Xeon Mac Pro. I know several people who have purchased PCs because they didn't need the power of the Xeon, but did need the Core 2 Quad, and they didn't want a built in screen. So either extend both lines to overlap with Core 2 Quad systems, or create a new Desktop (or even an expanded Mac mini line) that fill the void.
3) Cut prices more often, instead of changing prices when models are updated.

TEG

Apple's clearly more interested in laptops. The NPD numbers indicate that this part of the company is doing well enough to nearly offset the desktop numbers. Of course, I'd like to see the desktops upgraded, as well, but I think the importance of desktops is overstated.

Good .. Maybe they will keep on falling and Apple will finally release OS X for the rest of the PC world. :D

Yes because when you have a forecast of flat growth, you should panic and destroy your business model.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the mini doesn't need to be refreshed. Obviously this is overdue, and is likely to happen in January. Beyond that, I'm hearing arguments that Apple must now immediately start selling everybody's pet products, and that they have to sell them at prices that compete with the cheapest Windows PCs. As if Apple has been doing it wrong all along and has to completely change their approach to the market. I think there's a lot of instant amnesia going around.

During the last downturn in 2001, Jobs talked about how Apple would innovate through this period. I hope Apple continues to do the same thing this time rather than race for the bottom in pricing or, as one poster above suggested, completely alter their business model.

How can you rest your case when you haven't made one?

His case got tired and had to sit down. He was being compassionate.
 
Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.


Not to be too droll here, but you're comparing apples and oranges. What's the failure-rate for non-McDonald's would-be franchises? That's the number you can compare to.
 
what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com
 
Pretty Good

No question that Apple is doing well despite the economic crisis and having a long-in-the-tooth desktop computer lineup. I think the fact that they don't have a mid-range tower in their lineup is starting to hurt them though. Laptops rule the roost, but people are reluctant to buy an iMac when they have perfectly good working monitors at home. A $1299 mid-range desktop would go a long way to bringing in new customers. Updating the mini absolutely necessary -- I just can't believe it has been this long with no update. This is the system that is "supposed" to bring in Windows converts. That means they should have been paying extra attention to keeping this computer current and relevant. They probably have an economic model for keeping it anitquated to boost sales of more expensive systems. But I'm sure there are a significant number of people that would buy them if they were updated and more current.
Mac Pros should be offering a lot more for the money. They should be stuffing them with 1TB drives and min. 4GB or even 8GB of RAM. It is supposed to be a "workstation".
The iMacs are the best of the bunch in terms of value, but not having a matte screen option rules it out for much of their core loyalists. Other than that, I'm surprised anybody has been buying these lately... way too pricey for what you're getting right now. Though I'm sure value will be added shortly after the Mac Expo in a few weeks...
 
Apple has been pushing users towards laptops for a while now and with the redesigned laptops as well as the neglect towards the Mini this is to be expected (which is why Apple's notebook sales are outperforming the PC sales). Times like this I'm sure Apple is happy they are sitting on 25 billion in cash.

Regarding the notebook sales I am wondering how much of the 22% improvement was related to Apple taking so long to release the new notebooks and people were finally upgrading. We would probably need to see sales for each month from say July through end of January to get a much better picture on the health of notebook sales.
 
I dont think they should cut there prices, there computers are very robust and they use excellents parts and well put together, you pay for what you get, my imac 2003 has outlived my pc already, and Iam using the imac everyday
 
I dont think they should cut there prices, there computers are very robust and they use excellents parts and well put together, you pay for what you get, my imac 2003 has outlived my pc already, and Iam using the imac everyday

Hmm, five years ago I might have agreed with you. But quite a lot can happen in those five years. What makes you think the quality today is the same as it was in 2003?

Personally, it's the lack of QC in recent years that has pushed me to move on.
 
Nope, no one wants a flexible, upgradable computer, nope, no one. :rolleyes:

It amazes me that anyone would argue that Apple couldn't make a profit selling a mid to upper end consumer tower. These threads turn into xMac threads continually over the last several years.

Nope, no one wants a flexible, upgradable computer, nope, no one. :rolleyes:
 
what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com

I'm sorry, but we can't all be members of theipodcrowd.com, jobcandonowrong.com, and touchpadisthereasonibuymacs.org.
 
Since NPD says Windows boxes did better than Apple boxes year over year for November I'd venture to guess it has to do with two things.

Mac's need refreshing and the Windows commercial blitz about Vista/Mohave may have actually had an effect.
 
what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com

Maybe not, but Googling "ilovemyfingerprintreader.com" pulls up this thread and your post now...:D
 
Apple should ignore all this and stay the course.

Don't devalue your brand to keep some quarterly numbers high - use the cash hoard to ride out the recession and retain the premium status.

That is what I (and I would bet, Steve Jobs) should do.

-Allen
 
Did you ever take economics either MACRO or MICRO in college? My guess is NO otherwise you would not have stuck your foot in your mouth. When you are a premium product by definition you have a smaller market-share. That is simply the law of economics - have you heard of that, right? Give me a break - I went to college and took economics for years. Just because Steve decides to go a different direction than commonly held economic principals does make him right. He drove Apple into the ground and was ousted once before so he is fallible - contrary to what the hoards of Apple zealots think.

And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side. This is a RUMORS forum and I have every right to say what I want when I want to without any crap from someone like you. I can express my OPINION based on ANYTHING I like! And you, my friend, fit the bill to a T in my first comment.

Merry Christmas and here is to LOWER Apple prices...

D

This is utter nonsense. You might want to skip the insults and the emotional appeals, and stick to the facts. And what are the facts? The facts are that Apple has grown Mac shipments at ten times the rate of the Windows PC industry over the last couple of years. The facts are that they have done so with the current Mac product lineup. Does it seem even remotely plausible that this trend has completely reversed in one month? I don't care if you're a Nobel Laureate in economics, this doesn't make sense on its face.
 
Apple's prices on the new notebooks are the entire problem. 6 months ago I was a Mac user all the way. Now I'm looking at PC's more seriously than I ever imagined. That fact that a MBP's worth of specs can be found for $1000 means that I have looked closely at various notebook PC's - and realized that being able to run OS X is simply not worth the 100% price increase. Apple is also no longer the frontrunner when it comes to design, with many manufacturers now competing for that title. Apple has, frankly, made some serious missteps in the past year, and it is hurting them.

Apple notebooks have far out performed PC notebooks on sales so you would appear to have got that wrong. You've been complaining about the price of Apples for some time but if you do switch - then buy a Dell they are the company that research shows to be improving on matters of quality and customer service etc. They are a distant second to Apple (also improving) but forget HP - they're going down.
The only other nice looking laptops are Sony but mosx says they're rubbish so I wouldn't buy one of those.
 
Flat sales...

of desktops are due to the anticipation that has been building since September for a refresh of everything that wasn't a Macbook. Apple needs to cut this stupid half-yearly product intro crap down to quarterly so sales maintain a little bit more 'bouyancy'.
 
Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.
 
Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

What brand do you buy now?
 
Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

I believe a growing number of others may be at least considering other options also. That said, I think the desktop results are hardly that bad when seen in context, not least because many people are waiting to see what Apple do in January before buying.

A more portentous factor for future Apple sales is when one combines a number of recent issues that seem to be causing significant numbers of once loyal Mac users to look at alternatives: for eg., no more matte screen options (bar 17" MBP, which is unlikely to last) leaving many pro users questioning whether sticking with Apple is right for them in future, Firewire terminated far too prematurely from MacBooks, price increases on all Mac laptops (at least here in the UK) despite a recession & competitors dropping their prices, awful neglect of the Mini, lack of Blu-ray on all Macs, etc.

Individually, all these issues may have little impact, but collectively they may seriously affect Mac market share in future. - FWIW, I have 2 Macs, but I'm one of those keeping my options open about what computer I'll be buying next year & another Mac is far from guaranteed.
 
iMac - It's an all in one DESKTOP
Mac Mini - That's also a (small) DESKTOP
The point highlights the fundamental reason that people have not been hitting. Neither of those products actually competes with your basic budget midtower.

Desktop sales are down overall because of three basic reasons: the economy, shifts to notebooks, and marginal performance gains. Those who are buying are buying the econoboxes--higher end machines and niche products in general are suffering an above-average cut as the low end increases relative market share.

Apple would be expected to have a higher-than mean loss in sales as a result, aided in part by old products in the tail ends of their demand curves.
Now WHY aren't they SELLING well is the REAL problem, huh?
And worse yet, why are they UNDER-SELLING Windows desktops?
The data doesn't demonstrate that. The data shows a shift to the low-end, where Apple has no products to compete. There is a cyclical loss because of old products as well. Neither of these indicate a problem.
Only Steve Jobs and Apple are to blame for this, wrong products/pricing for the current economic times, period, end of story.
And? During times of economic hardship, a company with a diverse set of products will often see demand diminish in some of them. That does not mean they have to stop selling those products or make any radical changes. It simply means you have to look to other products to make up the difference.

Notebook sales are up 22%, resulting in a net curb of 1%. In an economic downturn, staying that close to flat is beating the overall economy. All things being equal, with consumer spending down 10-15%, sales should be down the same.

The personal computer market as a whole is roughly flat (desktops down 15%, notebooks up 15%). Apple is roughly in line, given the inherent error in the projections. This does not suggest a problem.
All the current PC manufacturers already have these products that Apple doesn't currently sell.
And yet they are not enjoying better overall sales, and all of them are struggling to stay profitable as they have been for years. Meanwhile, Apple continues to make money and maintain its relative status quo within the industry.
And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side.
You don't appear to be using that "centuries" of wisdom at the moment.
It is excessive to MOST. As I have said for YEARS - Apple would eventually hit the saturation point at their current pricing structure.
So?
Apple does not NEED to use Xeon CPU's in the Pro and there is not need for other choices Apple uses that does not directly affect the performance of the OS or the stability.
Spoken like someone totally ignoring the lessons that centuries of economics should be teaching. You are reducing the market to a single variable and assuming that competition and success depends solely on price per specs. Every decision made impacts sales, and every alteration involves a consequence. Every improvement has an attendant step backwards, and the trick is accurately navigating an array of choices to minimize losses. Ditching those "other choices Apple uses" would change the entire character of their product line. Such a radical risk is only merited if there is an immediately foreseeable problem.
If Apple would offer a Mac Mini with reasonable specs for $499 or even $399 they could capture the low-end market that will not and maybe cannot afford the high-end products.
Why would they want to? (Edit: capture the low end, not offer a decent mini)
 
Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

Then why are you here?
 
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