Apple Modifies Software Update for Windows

[HLdan]

If Apple really wanted to fix the issue, they would leave Safari on apple.com and let people come to them. It's worked for Mozilla, so why not Apple? Because Safari offers no serious advantage over IE7.

See the problem with your statement is that unlike Mozilla (which has always been available for Mac and Windows) most people don't know Safari is for Windows as well as the Mac OS. This is the same sad song that has been going on for years and unfortunately it still hasn't changed.
So many people on Windows tell me that they want to buy a Mac but they can't because MS Office is not available on the Mac. Big Misconception here because Office was on the Mac before it was on Windows.

Another misconception, anything regarding Apple software is not available on Windows and although it's fair to assume this you can't leave it up to an assumption. Apple has to let people know their software is available and you can bitch all you want about the checked or unchecked blah blah blah, it
about aggressive marketing which is what Microsoft did with I.E which is why corporations live on I.E.

The only people having problems with how Apple has handled this are the people on this forum. The average user could give a rats behind if Safari ended up on their desktop.
The people on this forum seem smart enough about computers that they can build them, tweak them, use the OS X86 to hack Leopard on a PC so if you can't get rid of the offer for Safari in Software Update then you have no business on a computer.

 

[carfac]

Missing the point entirely.

Most people may not be as tech savvy as we on this forum are. Most people may just think that in order to keep their computer working properly, they just hit "ok". That doesn't make them lazy or stupid - it's just not of interest to them to know all the inner workings of software on their computer.

Excellent points, all of them. I would add:

Most people TRUST Apple to update a product when that is what they say they are going to do. Apple is misusing that trust- however benignly- by turning an update into an install. Apple needs the trust of users to be, well, Apple. No trust, and they are MS.

And I think that is the bigger point. Apple is now long down the road to "Microsftness." They are no longer the cute, cuddle company they once were. I know it is hard for th fanbois to see this. It is incremental, but they are definitely doing it.

It started when Apple changed their name to Apple Computers. Then- remember this- charging to upgrade an existing piece of hardware in the iMacs to work. That was a test (obviously just a test, because they were giving it away free within a month). People bitched, but the fanbois were there to support them.

Then, lets see, there is charging more for DRM-less music. Seems Amazon can do DRM-Less w/o an upcharge, and at a higher bit rate. I do not believe Apple has officially addressed this, but the fanbois have- "the studios made them do it." BS. If Amazon can do it, so could Apple if they wanted (I seem to recall something about them being the largest online music retailer- that is not without its clout).

Then, lets see... no user replacable battery in the iPhone, not allowing ANY user apps on iPhone (until FORCED to!), tyeing the Phone to one carrier, limited roll-out, denying warranty work if you jailbreak, promising tones of upgrades to the iphone when in almost a year, there has hardly been a significant upgrade at all... and who can forget the extremely customer-friendly 200 dollar price cut on the iPhone. All around, the iPhone has just been one giant way for Apple to impose its will over users.

Some of the smarter fanbois have quipped in this thread that Apple has done nothing that MS or Adobe hasn't done prior to this. You have hit the nail on the head bois, now you just have to realize it- Apple has now lowered themselves to Microsoft's level. They have abused user trust. They have put profits before their base. Apple have lowered themselves to Microsoft's level.

Bottom line- Apple has gone from putting the customers first, to putting profits first (as even admitted to by some fanbois in this thread). Customers are now a concern for after Apple has banked another billion in it's account. That's fine- it's Apple's business to run as they see fit. But the fanboi base better wake up. This is not the 1990's Apple anymore. Woz ain't working at Apple anymore. The Woz "attitude" has long since left Infinite Circle. And you fanbois need to stop pretending it is. Apple is a Corporation, and t is run by Jobs and the bean counters. Camelot is over.

Ultimately, you are right- unchecking a little box is a small thing, until you look at it in context, and see what it is a sign of. It simply means that Apple is becoming more like Microsoft every day.

 

[dejo]

because as we all know whenever any browser is installed it always sets itself as the default browser.

Except in this case, Safari for Windows, you're wrong. Installing it does not set itself as the default browser. I think Firefox is the same, isn't it?

Most people may not be as tech savvy as we on this forum are. Most people may just think that in order to keep their computer working properly, they just hit "ok". That doesn't make them lazy or stupid...

No, it just makes them ignorant. If you don't pay attention to what you are installing on your computer, then be prepared be pay the consequences.

 

[uaaerospace]

Most people TRUST Apple to update a product when that is what they say they are going to do. Apple is misusing that trust- however benignly- by turning an update into an install. Apple needs the trust of users to be, well, Apple. No trust, and they are MS.

I agree with your first point wholeheartedly. Now, we will have to look at every update from Apple to make sure they aren't installing something extra we don't want. Honestly, I have always just accepted updates from Apple without much thought, but now I shall look them over carefully.

I won't touch the rest of your post with a 10 foot pole on this forum, regardless of your validity.

 

[carfac]

I won't touch the rest of your post with a 10 foot pole on this forum, regardless of your validity.

Somehow that does not surprise me. Believe me, I REALLY HOPE it's not true... but I unfortunately think it is where Apple is headed....

 

[apull]

Microsoft does do the same thing. IE 7.0 is checked and set as a critical download. They own 99% of the desktop market so they do whatever they want.

Hah! You ever try coding webpages to work exactly right with IE6? IE 7 is a critical download--critical for the web in general. Not that IE7 is nirvana, but a step in the right direction. I hope they push the 8.0 upgrade on people too--in fact, I'd be happy if they pushed out a hidden update that broke every version of IE before 7, so everyone would have to upgrade or download a real browser (and by that I refer to Firefox, not Safari...)

 

[HLdan]

Some of the smarter fanbois have quipped in this thread that Apple has done nothing that MS or Adobe hasn't done prior to this. They have abused user trust. They have put profits before their base. Apple have lowered themselves to Microsoft's level.

Firstly I could barely stop laughing enough to write this post in regards to yours. Apple has abused user trust?????Huh??? I have to wonder how many Macs either you or anyone else on this forum have they installed the "Singer User License" of Leopard or Tiger on from the same disc? Unlike Microsoft who doesn't have any trust for their customers (Activation, Genuine Advantage) so don't say Apple is now on par with MS, hell no.

Dude you need to be cool on the fanboi stuff, I wouldn't recommend posting this name calling, I don't think I saw a single person referring to you that way.

 

[Mackan]

Firstly I could barely stop laughing enough to write this post in regards to yours. Apple has abused user trust?????Huh??? I have to wonder how many Macs either you or anyone else on this forum have they installed the "Singer User License" of Leopard or Tiger on from the same disc? Unlike Microsoft who doesn't have any trust for their customers (Activation, Genuine Advantage) so don't say Apple is now on par with MS, hell no.

Dude you need to be cool on the fanboi stuff, I wouldn't recommend posting this name calling, I don't think I saw a single person referring to you that way.

His post merely stated the obvious. Apple isn't a company to be proud over anymore. There will always be people defending Apple no matter what. Apple's general attitude and growing focus on profit, control, and imposing their will onto users is worrying me.

 

[queshy]

yawn..lately both the rumors and the actual news have been pretty blah. Apple has not updated its site in a LONG time.

 

[cbud]

go back to work...thats what computers are for.

Is it really that hard to uncheck a box?

In the words of Jimmy Vulmer, "Come on."

Obviously not. But, unchecking a box does appear to cause offense. How many times a day do you you click?

This is a rather lame complaint.
No force is involved.
No rape was committed.

Yet they complain anyway. Go figure.

Companies always try to take advantage of a not so attentive user.

They seem to be very attentive on this forum. Thank goodness for all the forum members who stand up for the computer illiterate. What would we do without you?

People need to step up and take responsibility for their own stupidity and pay attention to what they are installing...if you don't wanna install Safari, uncheck the box. I have never heard so many people bitch about having to uncheck a box...lazy bastards.

Exactly.

His post merely stated the obvious. Apple isn't a company to be proud over anymore. There will always be people defending Apple no matter what. Apple's general attitude and growing focus on profit, control, and imposing their will onto users is worrying me.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[BillyBobBongo]

<snip> so don't say Apple is now on par with MS, hell no.

He didn't say that, the point to get across was that Apple is heading in that direction....and I happen to agree with that opinion!

It's all about the money!

 

[Santa Rosa]

There was nothing wrong with the way it was. People should just take 2 seconds to look at what they are installing and stop being so dense.

 

[BongoBanger]

People can go on about users beign 'lazy' and 'careless' but there's the deal: I shouldn't have to uncheck a box because it shouldn't be checked in the first place. It's quite a simple concept, really.

This isn't an update, this is the fresh install of an app that doesn't currently exist on the computer. If Apple want to disguise the installation of a new app as an update then they have indeed sunk to the level of Adobe or MS and their stealth installations.

 

[ilovefanboyz]

Thank you so much gentlemen.. I love these posts, You guys honestly sound like the Third Reich! All these comments about how life will be better if we force our ways onto people.. I love it All of us professionals have such a good laugh at these posts..

Oh, and check out how many people are using Shake on a Mac... That really worked out well didnt it

Honestly, people wouldnt care so much, but Apple are consistently saying they are different and better than Microsoft.. I actually think they are worse, they lock down far more things.

(goes off to enjoy Netflix instant viewing...)

 

[clevin]

See the problem with your statement is that unlike Mozilla (which has always been available for Mac and Windows) most people don't know Safari is for Windows as well as the Mac OS. This is the same sad song that has been going on for years and unfortunately it still hasn't changed.

except firefox didn't force ppl to use it, on windows, or on mac, sure you can argue they didn't have a way of doing so.....

the way to let most ppl know, im sure apple has better way of doing it. safari vs IE ads? a suggestion rather than sneak in?

by opt-in by default, there is nothing about "let people know" anymore.

Again, a thounsands of reasons for defense, doesn't alter the reality, firefox had to face the reality that many websites were IE only, they didn't just hide behine excuse, they waging information campaign and gradually change the situation.

High and Low, like day and night. Everybody can see it.

I hold no grudge against webkit as a product, its root and its developers, its unfortunately the previously 100% complete OSS now getting this type of reputation, all because of apple's dirty practice.

 

[HLdan]

He didn't say that, the point to get across was that Apple is heading in that direction....and I happen to agree with that opinion!

It's all about the money!

READ AGAIN on post #157. The last line from Carfac states "Apple have lowered themselves to Microsoft's level".
READ first before sticking up for people.

 

[digiguy23]

For Window users, it makes sense, but the bottom line for Mac users, they don't realize that Apple will install it anyway at their factory, when you purchase that new shiney Mac.

 

[Denarius]

So, Fanboi, you never answered my question, did you? What if IE was snuck in by a MS update? If, according to you, it was free, I guess that would be OK???

Hehe. Well if they actually gave me the choice (even if it's checked by default) to install IE then that's no problem: I still have a choice, even if their default's are encouraging me in their direction.

I think the main difference that I have with you on this front is that I don't think having a check box enabled before you take the action of installing is actually sneaky, perhaps tending more in the direction of sneaky than not having it checked in the first place, but nevertheless the information is laid out in front of you before you press the install button. And I'll reassert the point that doing it on the back of free software in the first place makes it all the more valid, particularly as the comparison between your average windows virus that goes around maliciously cocking up your computer(we don't have much experience of this strange phenomenon on our macs) and a web browser like safari or a music system like iTunes simply isn't valid in any way whatsoever.

At the end of the day it's just marketing. Apple are using things like Safari, iTunes etc to get people interested in Apple technology (mind you, I think the iPod has been the biggest contributor to the mac's burgeoning fortunes the last few years). Yes marketing is in no doubt the spawn of Satan him/herself , but they all do it, so live with it.

 

[Denarius]

Mozilla's Asa Dotzler believes Apple should not leave the software checked by default.

Oh come on, that's akin to a turkey saying that people shouldn't be encouraged to vote for Chrismas.

 

[BillyBobBongo]

READ AGAIN on post #157. The last line from Carfac states "Apple have lowered themselves to Microsoft's level".
READ first before sticking up for people.

I think you need to take the whole context of a post into consideration rather than one sentence. My take on the post (and others made by this forum member) was that Apple is heading down a slippery slope and although that statement was made it wasn't made to be such a clear and final statement as you have chosen to view it as.

But let's not sit and argue over semantics....I need a beer!

 

[twoodcc]

i do see where an issue could be. it doesn't bother me, but it might bother some people

 

[snebes]

I hate to say this, but Apple is being run more and more by the bean counters than most would like to think. If their marketing department saw this as a way to get people on Windows to try their software, with the potential of switching to a Mac, I am all for it. As long as the quality control is kept, and the innovative look at modern computing, Apple will still be an upstanding company. I see this as more viral marketing than anything else, of which it seems is the 'big idea' nowadays.

Also, people don't seem to be remembering that Windows Genuine Advantage is a required install that has bugged me several times at work on a XP installation. Do I install it? No. My entire office runs legitimate software on their computers, thanks to my checking, but I don't want a system to be brought down because it forgot its on activation key. And if I remember right, this was originally pushed under a numerically named update, which I read the description of and immediately thought was meant for evil. I don't want people in my office getting phished, so I recommend the use of FireFox or IE7. Do I see Microsoft's tactics as being evil? No. Apple's? No. They are doing what's best for the majority of users, and the minority of above average users (read: people reading forums such as these) get all up in arms because they have to uncheck not to install new software.

I personally see the Internet Explorer 7 "update" as new software. Why? A lot has changed and it does require new learning for the end user. Using some people's logic here, lets say that Microsoft Frontpage was free and its update was being pushed to your computer with Microsoft/Windows Update. Would it be labeled as new software? The package was renamed to Microsoft Web Expressions. If I didn't research this, I wouldn't know what this was, and I remember doing that trying to find what the newest version of Frontpage was. Would you hold this "update" under the microscope?

Personally, I see Safari on Windows as an updated web browser over Internet explorer 6, and for the most part 7. Just because this is being pushed as an update to, not that it will, replace Internet explorer on Windows, doesn't really mean that it is evil. How about this: Apple is pushing their software experience to PC's now, because perhaps in the future, Mac OS X will support more generic PC hardware installations? Far fetched, I agree, but it is possible. This is no different than, say, google. Google took over the web searching experience, and will soon be offering the Android platform for mobile phones soon. I have come across many people excited to use Android, whom also trust Google for some reason. Google, last I've heard, works with the NSA. They have and will continue to collect data that can easily be pointed to the owner, by searches, shopping, email, and soon to be by telephone communications. Why do so many people use Google? Why is it the default choice as a search engine in Firefox/Mozilla/iPhone/Android? That scares me a hell of a lot more than unchecking a box to install Safari on a Windows machine.

I realize this is a long and somewhat off topic rant, but I hope my point comes across. The only people that care about this, are the ones not affected by Safari getting installed. Seems like a large one sided story.

 

[aussie_geek]

What Apple has done now to their software update is what they should have done in the beginning. There should be a definitive choice clearly shown whether or not you want software installed.

I am used to the google toolbars and yahoo toolbars coming up during software installs but they are on a separate "wizard page" . Fair enough you need to uncheck them by default but it is very clearly stated (ie it has its own page) what you are installing.

Also, i remember on 2 occasions where I have told apple software update to ignore safari updates. Once should be enough. Does it reset whenever a new software update program or version of safari is released??


aussie_geek

 

[MHerstand]

Safari is a great browser

I think everyone's missing the point. For the computer masters out there, you've probably had to design a website at some point in your life so it's important to have the most popular browsers anyway for testing. For the rest of the world: everyone's responses here are crazy. Apple is giving away free software. They would only be doing this if they thought that people would like it and possibly thing "hmm, if this product is easy and good, maybe a Mac would be too."

The point is not that "MS has done this" or "Adobe has done this." The point is, why not give good free software to the masses? It's crazy that people would say "This just goes to show that Apple is going down the same path as MS and is only interested in making money, not helping customers." How does giving away a really good piece of free software clarify as "only thinking about money." They'd only make money off the people who thought the software was good enough to explore the company further. And I'm not slamming Firefox, I think it's a great browser too, but forcing a second browser on a computer (it would probably only be the second for the people who don't know what "Safari" is and whether they should download it), is not exactly a huge ominous sign of Apple's evil ways.

P.S. And don't extrapolate my comments to viruses or AOL or other software that no one wants or cares about. The software update only shows up on computers if the user has already downloaded Apple software. In addition, Safari is easily one of the top two browsers on the market for mass use and therefore doesn't constitute as deadweight for anyone.

 

[jbernie]

Boo to Apple, Yay for Skype.

Windows only user, after the first round I uninstalled Safari and then uninstalled the software updater, even though I have iTunes I do not need to update it as I only run it to make updates to my iPod ie creating a play list.

For me Apple's checked by default is obnoxious, just the same as Adobe Acrobat & Yahoo's IM updates checkes everything by default, which is promptly unchecked by me as I only want the IM tool.

I give kudos to Skype as it offers the Google toolbar but the option is unchecked by default.