Apple NAB Announcements?

[mk_in_mke]

Please explain more!

I'm new to the mac (about 6 months) and I switched over b/c my research showed me that FCP and Motion were a superior video suite than anything offered for the PC. I have to say i am VERY disappointed with FCP and motion both. So I really hope they will be making some major enhancements to those Apps. Will the new quicktime codec and core video be able to help FCP's pathetic "real-time" capabilities? A better integration between FCP and motion would be very welcome too. Motion is so buggy and crash-prone, i've basically stopped using it.

For you hardcore Apple video users...any thoughts to what might be next for FCP and motion?

Please explain why FCP disappointed you.. This is such a great application: you must have some serious needs... Could you please provide us with a list?

Motion is a version 1.0 product which offers a lot... We all know that... I have read many reviews and all the reviewers agreed on the fact that this is not a mature version... What is disappointing you... Could you list?

Thanks

Michel

 

[nuckinfutz]

I can't answer for pherplexed but I will say that.

Many people are looking for more FCP features that should come at NAB.

I wouldn't call FCPs realtime functions "pathetic" it really depends on what type of computer you have. A fast G5 is going to provide better RT performance. However with a Core Image/Video enabled FCP 5.0 we should see even better performance.

Many FCP users hate the media manager. It loses track of files and is just plain ole clunky and un Apple like. I'm hoping for a new mm with support for Spotlight to keep track of project files flawlessly. This is of course going to require Tiger.

FCP needs better audio support. Quicktime was the culprit with its stereo inputs. That problem is gone with QT7.

Look for more features like background rendering, better Audio Unit support and a bunch of other stuff. We have to look realistically at FCP 5.0 as the culmination of 2 years or more of programming as FCP 4.0 was two years ago and 4.5 was a free upgrade with some new codec support.

I'm expecting Motion to improve greatly since it know will tie directly into Core Image/Video to handle the work. I think many of the problems where caused by Motion doing these RT things on Panther which just doesn't have the OS support for it. Motion 2.0 should be a nice upgrade as well. I'm excited.

 

[Sunrunner]

When I read the rumor about FCP, DVDSP, a pro video app and a pro audio app, I didn't think much of it. But then as the day wore on, I began wondering what the heck Apple needed another pro video app for. Then it hit me 3-D!!!! Ok, I know it's stupid to get my hopes up for a 3-D app from Apple but think of the implications of an Apple branded 3-D app. Holy mother of God that would be sweet!
In college I looked over lightwave, and was hopelessly lost, I can only hope that apple has something coming down the pipeline that's easier to use.
Probably putting the cart before the horse, but I'm hoping.

-Ethan

Interesting supposition, that Apple would trow out a 3D app. When you think about it , the idea is not too far fetched. Steve Jobs is also the CEO of Pixar afterall, and Im sure their engineers are working on inhouse 3D apps and extensions all the time. Since Pixar has been migrating to more exlusive use of the Mac OS recently, I think it is entirely feasible that Apple could be working with an application development for Pixar witch they would adapt as a commercial application.

 

[Sunrunner]

Please explain why FCP disappointed you.. This is such a great application: you must have some serious needs... Could you please provide us with a list?

Motion is a version 1.0 product which offers a lot... We all know that... I have read many reviews and all the reviewers agreed on the fact that this is not a mature version... What is disappointing you... Could you list?

Thanks

Michel

For my part, I dont understand how one could be truly disappointed with FCP, considering the sub-par status of all the FCP cometitors out there. The cost-to-performance ration of FCP is unmatched, as well as power and usability. Small annoyances are one thing, but the application as a whole is top notch.

 

[pherplexed]

Please explain why FCP disappointed you.. This is such a great application: you must have some serious needs... Could you please provide us with a list?

Motion is a version 1.0 product which offers a lot... We all know that... I have read many reviews and all the reviewers agreed on the fact that this is not a mature version... What is disappointing you... Could you list?

With FCP, i'm mostly disapointed is the lack of real-time with non-dv footage (images, compositing modes, and motion graphics). My generic PC w/ Vegas Video let me see all these things in realtime (granted, not a full 30fps) but i didn't have to wait for 45 min. for a render (i know that's very heavily dependent on the machine...but i run a G5 dual 2.0 w/ 4gb ram!) Like nuckinfutz said, i'm also disappointed with the media manager. It's clunky and loses connection with clips constantly. I think better audio support/options would be great also. For the record, i like the workflow of FCP much better than what i was using. Bin/Viewer/canvas/timeline...once you get the hang of it, much better than anything else i've seen.

As far as motion, i think it's AMAZING. My disappointment is with it's stability. It crashes on me ALL the time. I know this is a 1.0 release and it will only get better.

 

[Caiwyn]

I can't say i really understand why people seem to think apple will/should get rid of Logic. Yes, Logic is geared more for the music industry...WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY THEY BOUGHT IT. Apple already makes garage band, soundtrack, logic express and logic pro.... if you can't get one of these programs to suite your music/audio editing needs i hate to tell you this but YOU are more likely the problem and just dont know the software well enough.

Really? Tell that to the overwhelming majority of the market still using Pro Tools. I'm sure they'll be real interested in hearing all about your superiority complex.

Meanwhile, Logic, for all its value, doesn't compare to other programs that cost a fraction of the price. Take a look at Tracktion, which perfected the single-screen workflow long before GarageBand. And as GB users have found, it's incredibly simple to record and edit audio tracks, not to mention exceedingly fast.

Logic, on the other hand, doesn't really adhere to the UI design principles of Apple at all. Sure, it's powerful, but what good is power if you can't use it quickly and easily? Tracktion, Cubase, and Pro Tools all allow quick and easy recording and editing on a track-by-track basis. They allow the user to get the bulk of the work done in a fraction of the time. That's power you can use. Logic has fine extras, but the basic feature set that audio professionals require is buried underneath them. The competition is BEATING Apple senseless in terms of usability. Does that not seem out of place to you?

If Apple is working on a new pro audio app, I hope that it's a more professional version of GarageBand, with support for higher resolution and bitrates, as well as full-featured midi editing and signal routing. I'd buy such a product in a heartbeat.

 

[Eniregnat]

Will the new quicktime codec and core video be able to help FCP's pathetic "real-time" capabilities? A better integration between FCP and motion would be very welcome too. Motion is so buggy and crash-prone, i've basically stopped using it...

For you hardcore Apple video users...any thoughts to what might be next for FCP and motion?

My guess is that FCP will fully take advantage of the latest QT codec and the improvements integrated in Tiger. FCP is already scalable to and HD and beyond*, but I bet that presets will be added fro all of the new HD protocols. (Likely BlueRay compatible formats will be supported from FCP to DVD Studio Pro through Compressor. I would also guess that real-time rendering will improve significantly. My guess is the Soundtrack will receive an expanded library and sport more interface options. LiveType will get some more LiveFonts, and hopefully will render better previews faster. Every video app adds additional transitions. I bet that the audio portion of FCP will have improved audio syncing and correction, as well as some new algorithms for cleaning up audio. There has been talk that real-time editing will eventually be the central core of FCPs user base, though I don’t see the television industry changing overnight to an Apple based one. Apple consistently improves compatibility between its pro-apps, and I would hope that all of Apple’s pro-apps improve in their ability to be extensible. It would be nice to be able to edit a set of credits, and to be able to automatically re-render, compress, and burn a finished DVD with out going though to much work.

All of the programs will likely sport greater stability, and perhaps a single unified media manager- well the latter is wishful thinking. Edit- Oh and a new splash screen, they always update the splash screens.


*I don't work with HD, but this is what I understand about FCP currently. I don't really plan to go though the brick of a box and find the documentation that backs this up.

 

[cspace]

Apple DAW rumors

I'm curious to see what happens at NAB as well...particularly with any audio updates. I don't know anything firsthand, but I'd guess that they might throw a good audio editor into the FCP package. That would make sense. Editing right from FCP or Soundtrack would be nice. As far as the new DAW rumor goes...people did complain that Logic 7 was more of a "tack on features and plugins" release than it was a major structural / UI change. Maybe Logic 8 will be announced and getting the Garage Band-type UI, 64-bit, CoreAudio, Quicktime 7, etc stuff that people are speculating about (ship in August)? Didn't Apple say that the PDC enhancements would be in a "pay upgrade"? After I heard that rumor about Jobs saying the UI sucked, I thought that they would make some major changes at some point. I still can't see them naming it ProBand. My guess is that's a loops/plugins package for Garage Band or something. Hopefully we'll know soon.

 

[crpchristian]

new audio new 3d

Really? Tell that to the overwhelming majority of the market still using Pro Tools. I'm sure they'll be real interested in hearing all about your superiority complex.

Meanwhile, Logic, for all its value, doesn't compare to other programs that cost a fraction of the price......

"LogicPro has become the industry-standard application for music creation and audio production, and for good reason too. This latest major upgrade dramatically broadens the capabilities of computer-based professional studio environments. Logic Pro 7 quite simply provides the most comprehensive collection of music creation tools on the market today."
-dvuser.co.uk
(from a video pub no less)

" Apple's influence is starting to appear but Logic still doesn't look like an Apple product. Could things be a little easier to find? Does it really need three Audio menus? A little eye candy is not essential but a user interface makeover wouldn't hurt.

When I need streaming sample playback, full MIDI editing and a printed score, Logic is my first choice. For an application with all that, plus high-resolution audio and a suite of dynamite virtual instruments, you can't argue with Logic. "
-proaudioreveiw.com
(i think this one says it all)

As far as an apple 3D app, i'm not so sure. Yes, with pixar influence i'm sure they could come up with something incredible..but thats a big IF. Despite the relationship, i feel like jobs keeping Pixar special and (way) on top is a muuuuch higher priority than trying to break into the 3D field. Apple making a 'garage band' level app could make sense, 3D is sooo useful and diverse but a high end 3D app is arguably the most complicated creative software you can use..something to consider . The high end market is pretty filled already with some great apps (maya, lightwave, cinema, softimage). Itd be interesting to see but i wonder what they could really add aside from a fabulous interface.

 

[Caiwyn]

"LogicPro has become the industry-standard application for music creation and audio production"

And yet he offers absolutely no facts or figures to back that up. Pro Tools is the industry standard, not Logic, because it still has the lion's share of the market. Why do you think so many Logic users clamored for OMF support back in the day?

"Apple's influence is starting to appear but Logic still doesn't look like an Apple product. Could things be a little easier to find? Does it really need three Audio menus? A little eye candy is not essential but a user interface makeover wouldn't hurt."

This one does say it all, and makes my point for me. That's exactly the problem with Logic, and Apple has done very little to change it. One suspects that a new pro audio app built on Logic's foundations but with a cleaner, more intuitive interface (similar to, say, GarageBand), would be exactly what Apple was intending with the purchase of eMagic all along. I don't know if it'll happen, but if it does, I'll be at the Apple Store the day it arrives.

 

[Caiwyn]

Maybe Logic 8 will be announced and getting the Garage Band-type UI, 64-bit, CoreAudio, Quicktime 7, etc stuff that people are speculating about (ship in August)? Didn't Apple say that the PDC enhancements would be in a "pay upgrade"? After I heard that rumor about Jobs saying the UI sucked, I thought that they would make some major changes at some point. I still can't see them naming it ProBand. My guess is that's a loops/plugins package for Garage Band or something. Hopefully we'll know soon.

Logic 8 so soon would be quite a shock, but if Apple were to improve the interface to a GarageBand level, and get rid of the XSKey entirely, that'd be great.

As for ProBand, my guess is that Apple registered the trademark just to keep other companies from playing off the GarageBand name. Just because they registered it doesn't mean they have to use it. Of course, a rose by any other name...

 

[Lacero]

With FCP, i'm mostly disapointed is the lack of real-time with non-dv footage (images, compositing modes, and motion graphics). My generic PC w/ Vegas Video let me see all these things in realtime (granted, not a full 30fps) but i didn't have to wait for 45 min. for a render (i know that's very heavily dependent on the machine...but i run a G5 dual 2.0 w/ 4gb ram!)

I think this will be addressed in FCP 5. Non-realtime compositing modes is the one feature that I miss and have to rely on After Effects. Combining mixed formats on a timeline is also a feature I'd like to see included and is strongly hinted at NAB.

 

[crpchristian]

If apple wants to overhaul the interface, wonderful. You can store screen sets in Logic to be whatever you want. Having a tabbed interface would be nice though.

I think one major diff. between a pro and non pro app is that pro apps are are more about power and ability than anything. Initial ease of use and learning curve is not the major priority like it is with 'hobby' programs. Logic has so much in it already to do away with it woudl be a waste. As long as any update is 1)backwards compatible 2) just as powerful then change all you want i say apple.

And yet he offers absolutely no facts or figures to back that up. Pro Tools is the industry standard, not Logic, because it still has the lion's share of the market. Why do you think so many Logic users clamored for OMF support back in the day?

Uhm, actually he does. If you would take the time read the article you would see he points out the actual user base #. And he is posting on an established publication/web site, and has more cred to his name than just us forum posters, to which might i add i don't see you posting any actual numbers yourself.

 

[Zigster]

The new version of FCP will now support the new Sony HDV cams, as well as possibly the upcoming JVC HDV cam, while already containing the codecs for the upcoming Panasonic mini-HD cam.

 

[ddub]

New PMs a good possibility

I know we are more likely to see dual-core processors put to use in the Power Macs if they were released at WWDC. However, it seems as though we might be seeing new PMs at NAB. I received an e-mail from an Apple rep for education - the PM prices have dropped significantly "for this week only".

Single 1.8: $1199
Dual 1.8: $1599
Dual 2.0: $1999
Dual 2.5: $2299

Trying to clear out inventory? Just that I'd pass this tidbit along...

 

[jscheiman]

I know we are more likely to see dual-core processors put to use in the Power Macs if they were released at WWDC. However, it seems as though we might be seeing new PMs at NAB. I received an e-mail from an Apple rep for education - the PM prices have dropped significantly "for this week only".

Single 1.8: $1199
Dual 1.8: $1599
Dual 2.0: $1999
Dual 2.5: $2299

Trying to clear out inventory? Just that I'd pass this tidbit along...

So these prices only apply to the educational discount? Just this week only? Man, for only $2299, the 2.5 is a steal!

 

[Caiwyn]

If you would take the time read the article you would see he points out the actual user base #.

No, he quotes Apple's claimed 200,000 user base, but that doesn't tell me anything about how Logic is "the industry standard." The number of copies shipped does not describe an industry standard, especially if you offer no comparison to the competition.

And he is posting on an established publication/web site, and has more cred to his name than just us forum posters

You're kidding, right? The site is practically the guy's blog. I'm not trying to knock it, because he obviously has a good head for what he's writing about, but his articles aren't even spell-checked. If having a personal website constitutes an established reputation, sign me up. Otherwise, consider that his claims are exaggerated, because Digidesign's resellers claim an 85% market share for Pro Tools.

If you'd like a more personal example from multiple sources, take a look at this thread over in the OSXAudio forums. The long and short of it is that a guy got an offer to work in a professional studio environment, and he needs tips from other professionals on what software/hardware to use. Every respondent tells him to go with Pro Tools. And every one of them cites its dominance in the market as the reason why. Clients know the Pro Tools name, and expect you to have it. Anything else is professional suicide. And this is on a forum where the majority of users prefer Logic.

If that's still not enough, how's about this: How many professional studios have you been to that don't have a Pro Tools rig? And how long have those studios been in business?

If you don't want to bother to get experienced impressions of what's really being used, fine, but don't point to an unsubstantiated claim on a personal website review as some sort of "proof." If Apple wants to give Digidesign the same run for their money that they're giving Avid with FCP, they have to either drastically change Logic's convoluted interface, or they need to offer another solution.

 

[crpchristian]

apple has a whopping %5 market in personal computers.. does that mean apple is bad and needs to rework it's computers and OS and software or does it just have more to do with what the industry went with and keeps on that way becuase it prepetuates itself. If apple grows to say %7.. is a mac a better computer? no... maybe a fraction cheaper at best.

If Logic is the 'underdog' program but is better (IMO) than so be it. If you/someone works for larger companies and has to use what they use then thats how it is, apple won't convince many companies to spend a ton to switch regardless of what they do. . If Logic is the program for independent professionals then great, i'd rather power and quality drive the development of my software over popularity (which is why i use apples to begin with.. isnt that why almost all of us use apples). Every review i've read for Logic 7 was more or less glowing and i have yet to meet someone who doesn't like it (given I only deal with 'independents' anymore) I assume we probably just work from two diff. perspectives in the industry. Besides.. the Chemical Brothers use Logic... how could it not be good enough for me

 

[dongmin]

Interesting supposition, that Apple would trow out a 3D app. When you think about it , the idea is not too far fetched. Steve Jobs is also the CEO of Pixar afterall, and Im sure their engineers are working on inhouse 3D apps and extensions all the time. Since Pixar has been migrating to more exlusive use of the Mac OS recently, I think it is entirely feasible that Apple could be working with an application development for Pixar witch they would adapt as a commercial application.

What's Pixar got to do with anything at Apple? Other than the fact that Jobs is the CEO of both companies and Apple showing off Pixar's trailers now and then, there's been zero overlap between the two. Pixar is not in the business of sharing/selling its software.

Don't get me wrong: I'd love for Apple to release a kick-ass 3D app (especially if it has the level of precision and control that Rhino has). But that's not gonna happen with any technology-sharing agreements with Pixar. Rather, it'll happen through Apple acquiring a small software company as they did with iTunes and Logic.

 

[Caiwyn]

If Logic is the program for independent professionals then great, i'd rather power and quality drive the development of my software over popularity

Putting aside the fact that without popularity, development doesn't happen PERIOD...

Power is great. If you can use it. See, that's the thing about "quality." Usability is still a factor, and any schmoe will tell you that Logic suffers from serious usability problems. Like the reviewer you quoted asked, do you really need three audio menus (doesn't sound like such a rave review to me)? Because I can tell you right now that I don't. Me, I have all the power I need to record, mix and edit audio and midi tracks with the full range of plugins at low latencies and high resolution and bitrates. And I have it with a program that costs less than one-tenth the price of Logic, and is heads and tails easier to use. If that's not "power and quality," I'd like to hear your definition.

All I'm trying to say is that the problems Logic has aren't the fault of stupid users (as has been asserted here). They're the fault of bad interface design. Users can't be faulted for preferring another piece of software that is easier to use. The irony is that this is what Apple normally excels at. Whether or not they're going to correct that... well, we'll see next month.

 

[cspace]

protools & logic

Just my 2 cents on this...Logic is more popular in a) uk & europe and b) electronic music. Protools is the defacto standard in the American music industry, especially in studios that do tracking and mixing of bands (i.e. not Chemical Bros-like stuff). Basically what I am saying is that it isn't as easy as saying Logic is the leader or Protools is the leader in the industry. The "industry" has many segments to it, but overall I think Protools is by far the most used DAW software.

 

[Caiwyn]

Just my 2 cents on this...Logic is more popular in a) uk & europe and b) electronic music. Protools is the defacto standard in the American music industry, especially in studios that do tracking and mixing of bands (i.e. not Chemical Bros-like stuff).

That is absolutely true. Logic's extensive midi and loop-based features make it very popular for electronic music. That's why the theory that another Apple app, using Logic's chassis with a new interface better suited for more straightforward track recording, makes so much sense.

 

[Yakk]

Some facts...

Logic is mostly used for scoring of music, because of the great MIDI features. Audio is almost a 2'nd class citicen in the interface.
Pro-tools is THE standard, and although it has some downsides of it's own (midi features?) it's MUCH more more robust for postproduction!

Currently Logic 7 pro has a bug in the XML / OMF import code that prohibits import of pieces longer than 107 regions, which makes Logic unfit for PRO audio post. Some users have an old Logic platinum running under OS9 because OMF was working back then.

Apples says here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300133) that it's not a problem as you should use XML or AAF instead but that doesnt work either. And this has been going on since Logic 7 was released, and they still advertise this feature.
What I guess is that it will be fixed in version 8, but that will be a paid upgrade!

Apple will loose sales to Pro-tools and nuendo for this!

Also many users are still pissed because of the sudden loss of communication they had with the developers of the app, before Apple acquired eMagic.

Apple's tightlipped style might work for surprising the competitors, but professional users needs facts (Like are they going to fix the Bug? for Logic 7 owners)

See this for info:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?13@167.AhknaYtMTpX.1@.689ef45f/84

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@167.AhknaYtMTpX.1@.689ef45f

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?50@167.AhknaYtMTpX.1@.68a8d95d

 

[giles117]

Yak I couldnt agree more.

I am a DP User and I can call the company talk to a tech support person offer suggestions get feedback via email, etc...

Is Motu perfect??? No, but I can talk to them about rpoblems and they offer up suggestions or speak of upcoming solutions.

Logic. Nah totally apple. Great for boxes but sucky for software support.

Even Digi I can call those guys and get good verbal support/suggestions, etc......

I primarily use logic for sequencing and DP for mixing and tracking. Freeze Tracks in logic makes life easy to shuttle back and forth between it and DP as OMF totally sucks.....

 

[crpchristian]

What do people think of ProTools interface? I personally thing is uuuuugly. It looks to me like a spreadsheet program. I never used it much and guess the interface works for what it needs to but its visual presentation is sad i think. The one thing i DO like about Logic's interface is its use of color/shape. Apple has tweaked its look in later revisions to give the look more depth and follows rules of 'visual design' much better than most apps i see. Too bad they haven't consolodated its menu structure to fit it.
-
If there is such a need for a postproduction audio program why not turn Soundtrack into that, isn't that program supposed to be the Audio tool for FCP? I haven't used it, it looks a bit simplistic which makes some sense but once again, if you're a professional, wouldn't you want power and ablity above all else. Yes, of course a wonderful interface is valued and prefered but not over performance and ability. Making soundtrack a powerful audio mixer (especially for video/film) makes sense to me. Logic has its place. Trying to make a ProTools program (taking over in the music industry), i don't see that happening with success. Digidesign would have to screw something up for that to happen (like Quark takign forever to port to OS X and not growing as an app, giving InDesign room to move in)
-