Apple needs to stop being so reliant on the menu bar for non-pro apps

[Analog Kid]

We would need to add it to iOS since most people use iOS. People tend to either use iPadOS OR macOS.

I don't think you'd need to add it to iOS-- the point of splitting iPadOS from iOS was so they could evolve somewhat independently. If it makes sense in one but not the other, it should be put where it makes sense.

The challenge I see is that iPadOS needs to scale from the Mini to the 12.9". I'd love to have a menubar on the 12.9" in Pages, for example, but haven't used a Mini enough to know if it could work there-- especially in portrait mode (or around the notch on other iPads in portrait). If it can't be everywhere, there needs to still be an alternate way to get to the functionality.

Maybe the menubar could be made to scroll left and right to adapt to different sized screens?

 

[Analog Kid]

The Ribbon interface is atrocious.

I agree. The fact that it's persisted this long shows a lack of introspection on the MS team's part.

I think it was a misguided effort to listen to "power users". The Menubar is nice because it's a pretty exhaustive list of functionality, or should be. The downside is that you sometimes need to hunt for a function if it doesn't have a clear home or if it's a few sub menus deep. That's where the toolbar comes in-- quick access to common functions.

I'm guessing the ribbon was a response to "we need quick access to more than the toolbar can fit"-- and some team started going nuts with containers and controls making pages and panels and buttons. Some apps have palletized tool bars that you can tear off-- that's a better approach in my opinion.

 

[Analog Kid]

Why should the left part be in the application? Seems like a bad use of space, especially if you have multiple windows from the same app open. Having it in the menu bar avoids duplication and doesn’t cause issues in smaller windows.

I'll probably get shouted down for this, but just spitballing in the spirit of the thread: what if, instead of putting the left half of the menubar in the app window, you put the app toolbar in the right half of the menubar?

I don't like the idea on first blush, but it might be because I've acclimated to how things are. The argument for menubar at the top of the screen is that it's always in the same place, isn't covered up, and it doesn't take duplicate space in every document. The same arguments could be made against putting the toolbar in the document window.

My resistance to it is that it would pull the controls further from the content-- but I'd never make that argument about the menubar so maybe I'm just stuck in the current thinking.

As it is, the right of the menubar is mostly system level widgets, which is nice and I'd hate to give up my iStat Menus. That could become a feature of the Finder toolbar, I suppose...

 

[maxoakland]

I think this criticism is nonsense. The menu bar is an obvious location for options like that and has been for over 30 years. The reason the shortcut has to be included in a random location on the iPad is because they don’t have a good replacement for the menu bar

Older != worse

 

[IconDRT]

Time to eliminate the menu bar completely and make the entire top of the display a notch on macOS devices.

 

[WilliApple]

Hello everyone! I rewrote the original post to hopefully make it a lot easier to read and so people can hopefully get my point better.

 

[boss.king]

I'll probably get shouted down for this, but just spitballing in the spirit of the thread: what if, instead of putting the left half of the menubar in the app window, you put the app toolbar in the right half of the menubar?

I don't like the idea on first blush, but it might be because I've acclimated to how things are. The argument for menubar at the top of the screen is that it's always in the same place, isn't covered up, and it doesn't take duplicate space in every document. The same arguments could be made against putting the toolbar in the document window.

My resistance to it is that it would pull the controls further from the content-- but I'd never make that argument about the menubar so maybe I'm just stuck in the current thinking.

As it is, the right of the menubar is mostly system level widgets, which is nice and I'd hate to give up my iStat Menus. That could become a feature of the Finder toolbar, I suppose...

That would be a challenge for a lot of design tools and other creative apps just because of the sheer number of things in their toolbars. Not that it couldn't be done, I just don't see it improving the experience enough to be worth the change.

 

[Ethosik]

Yes. F. F once for full screen with menu bar. F again for full screen with menu bar hidden.

I just tried it. It’s not full screen. The menu bar remains and the space for the dock remains.

 

[boss.king]

Hello everyone! I rewrote the original post to hopefully make it a lot easier to read and so people can hopefully get my point better.

It still sounds like your point is "The menu bar is different to what I'm personally used to and so it should go away."

Apple needs to stop being so reliant on the menu bar.

HEAR ME OUT.​

The Menu Bar should be relied on for Pro apps, like Word, Pages, Keynote, Final Cut, Logic, but it should not be incorporated for apps made from iPadOS. It makes things a lot less consistent and Harder to use.

A lot of apps that also appear on iPhone and iPad (Messages, Safari, Weather, Freeform) (Which don't have a Menu Bar) are very easy to use. Apple moving these to the menu bar is a pretty bad move and makes macOS less user friendly than iPadOS.

Word, Pages, and Keynote are on iPad. They're even on iOS. What makes them "pro" apps but not Safari or Freeform?

Example 1 - Freeform:​

I use Freeform a lot on my iPad, and I have the grid off,
The way you turn that off is you have to click on the name, then press "Hide Grid"
View attachment 2152983

Now let's look at macOS:
Clicking on the name only renames it.
The other options are hidden somewhere else:
View attachment 2152986

THE MENU BAR.

Freeform (a brand new app) that uses the Mac Catalyst technology should not suffer from this inconsistency. It is based on an iPad app, and changing stuff to use the Menu Bar rather than its original location may make users think that the feature does not exist if they first used the app on their iPad or iPhone.

Now I am not saying that Apple should remove the Menu Bar, but they can keep the actions in the menu bar AND have the actions where they are on iPadOS. That is what would make the most sense.

The iPad and the Mac have different input methods and different interfaces. You're used to one but not the other. This is not a problem in the way the Mac version works.

Example 2 - Weather:​

Weather is also based on Mac Catlyst technology and suffers from the same inconsistency and relying on the Menu Bar on the macOS version.
View attachment 2152989
View attachment 2152990
You can see that on iPadOS, there is a ... button to change from Celcius to Fahrenheit.
On macOS, you need to go to the menu bar to change from Celcius to Fahrenheit.

It would make a lot more sense to use the iPad layout along with the Menu Bar to make apps a lot more user-friendly for the average user.

The weather app on the Mac is just half-assed. It's not very good on the iPad either. It was clearly made for the phone and lazily ported over.

Example 3 - Music:​

<snip>

I don't use these so I can't really follow your example. I'll refrain from commenting on this.

What do I want Apple to do?
Well, I want Apple to make the apps mentioned above identical to the iPadOS version to fix consistency. The new apps that are based off the iPad version should not be this different...

You list Safari as one of the apps that shouldn't use the menu bar, despite Safari being a Mac app long before iOS or the iPad even existed. It's not based off an iPad version.

Now I am not saying Apple should completely ditch the menu bar obviously because this would cause a lot of compatibility issues for apps, and for pro apps, the menu bar makes sense.

I just want macOS to be a lot more accessible for iPadOS and Windows users.

It is accessible, but accessible doesn't mean there won't be some form of learning curve. No two systems are going to work exactly identically, and expecting MacOS to be worse for all existing Mac users for the sake of a few people who can't be bothered to google something simple seems kinda shortsighted.

I also know a lot of average macOS users who never TOUCH the Menu bar. This would make macOS easier to use.

So? I know a lot of Mac users who also use iPads and have no issue using the menu bar. Different OS, different methods of doing things.

The menu bar should be reserved for pro-apps, the stock macOS apps that you would see on iPhone doesn't make sense for the menu bar to be used.

Again, what is a pro app?

Bonus example - Safari:​

Just imagine if this was the default view in Safari, and had to use the Menu bar to make a new tab.
View attachment 2153109

What?

Let me know what you think about this inconsistency.

They're different operating systems with different input methods and different capabilities. It makes sense that they're not identical.

 

[JustAnExpat]

>but it should not be incorporated for apps made from iPadOS.

Sounds like you're thinking about Desk Accessories of old?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desk_accessory
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Desk_Ornaments.txt

Or Dashboard Widgets?

Dashboard (macOS) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I agree, Apple should bring that back, but I think the Notification Center replaced it. But those widgets should be used for simple applications that either provide information, or allows limited input. Besides, the Notification Center does have a weather widget as default.

 

[drumcat]

Why should the left part be in the application? Seems like a bad use of space, especially if you have multiple windows from the same app open. Having it in the menu bar avoids duplication and doesn’t cause issues in smaller windows.

There's no rule that says in a multi-window application that the application has to have its menu in multiple areas.

Obviously it's a Windows trait. However, if the constraint is you have to assume you get only what, 550 pixels? So if you need big text for accessibility, you what, lose half your menu items?

And let's not forget what's solved -- right now, you're literally losing your menu bar apps without some software modification.

Maybe it's a good choice, and maybe it's inefficient -- valid opinions -- but something needs to change. This kludge isn't working. If Apple wants to buy out Bartender, grand. Go for it. Make their own solution, go for it.

The point is that something needs to change, and just because the OP was a bit drastic doesn't make it less of a problem.

 

[boss.king]

There's no rule that says in a multi-window application that the application has to have its menu in multiple areas.

If it's not in every window and it's not in the menu bar then you'd have a toolbar popping up and hiding away as you switch between windows. Sounds a lot worse than just having a dedicated menu bar for the whole app.

Obviously it's a Windows trait. However, if the constraint is you have to assume you get only what, 550 pixels? So if you need big text for accessibility, you what, lose half your menu items?

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

And let's not forget what's solved -- right now, you're literally losing your menu bar apps without some software modification.

In some apps, yes. Part of that is down to the notch eating up a big chunk of the menu bar on laptops. Part is down to people having a frankly ridiculous number of menu bar icons and apps. There are always going to be edge-cases that aren't ideal, but short of some sort of infinite scrolling menu, you're always going to have people who want to put more things into a space than will reasonably fit. I don't think taking the menu out of the menu bar is the right fix for that. Maybe just better first party menu bar icon management.

Maybe it's a good choice, and maybe it's inefficient -- valid opinions -- but something needs to change. This kludge isn't working. If Apple wants to buy out Bartender, grand. Go for it. Make their own solution, go for it.

I don't think it's a kludge, it works just fine. Some apps don't make good use of the menu bar, but I don't think it's widespread enough to warrant such a drastic change to a mostly fine system.

The point is that something needs to change, and just because the OP was a bit drastic doesn't make it less of a problem.

I don't agree that there's a problem in the first place. MacOS is fairly user-friendly as it is, but every system is going to have some sort of learning curve.

 

[galad]

The issue is not the menu bar on macOS, it's actually on iPadOS: the lack of menu bar means each app hides options in different places. Why would you have to tap on the file name in Freeform to change a view option? That makes no sense at all.

Menu are the best place to put the complete list of actions available in an app. Then there is the toolbar for the most used actions, and this it it.

Hiding a menu as complex as the Safari one under a small hamburger button doesn't seem quite a solution to me. Instead of a big target at the top of the screen that's easily reachable thanks to Fitt's law, now you have a small target, and then you have to select the top menu group again, and after that finally you can choose the item you wanted in a submenu.

Windows is so fun, each app hides the menu in a different place. On some app you have to press the option key to show it, now that's easily discoverable…

 

[Asbow]

I just tried it. It’s not full screen. The menu bar remains and the space for the dock remains.

@Ethosik See screengrab

 

[Manzanito]

If anything apple should bring the iPad more on par with the mac, not the other way around. If you prefer windows, stick to windows.

I’ve been using macs since 1990 and the menu bar is right the way it is.

 

[itunexify]

Pls no. Every menu in every app on macOS is in the menu bar, I don’t wanna look for a button in every app locate in different places. macOS should stay macOS

Apple needs to stop being so reliant on the menu bar.

HEAR ME OUT.​

The Menu Bar should be relied on for Pro apps, like Word, Pages, Keynote, Final Cut, Logic, but it should not be incorporated for apps made from iPadOS. It makes things a lot less consistent and Harder to use.

A lot of apps that also appear on iPhone and iPad (Messages, Safari, Weather, Freeform) (Which don't have a Menu Bar) are very easy to use. Apple moving these to the menu bar is a pretty bad move and makes macOS less user friendly than iPadOS.

Example 1 - Freeform:​

I use Freeform a lot on my iPad, and I have the grid off,
The way you turn that off is you have to click on the name, then press "Hide Grid"
View attachment 2152983

Now let's look at macOS:
Clicking on the name only renames it.
The other options are hidden somewhere else:
View attachment 2152986

THE MENU BAR.

Freeform (a brand new app) that uses the Mac Catalyst technology should not suffer from this inconsistency. It is based on an iPad app, and changing stuff to use the Menu Bar rather than its original location may make users think that the feature does not exist if they first used the app on their iPad or iPhone.

Now I am not saying that Apple should remove the Menu Bar, but they can keep the actions in the menu bar AND have the actions where they are on iPadOS. That is what would make the most sense.

Example 2 - Weather:​

Weather is also based on Mac Catlyst technology and suffers from the same inconsistency and relying on the Menu Bar on the macOS version.
View attachment 2152989
View attachment 2152990
You can see that on iPadOS, there is a ... button to change from Celcius to Fahrenheit.
On macOS, you need to go to the menu bar to change from Celcius to Fahrenheit.

It would make a lot more sense to use the iPad layout along with the Menu Bar to make apps a lot more user-friendly for the average user.

Example 3 - Music:​

Well, it gets even worse with apps not based on Mac Catalyst.

The music app on iPadOS to get to the full-screen player requires 1 tap
On macOS, I used to think that the full-screen player was nonexistent on macOS until I discovered it was in the Menu Bar. (Window > Full Screen Player)

This gets even worse for Windows users who use the Apple Music web client, and switches to macOS.
On the web client, you have a full-screen button right there, and it is super easy to enter the full screen player from there:
View attachment 2152993

On macOS, this button just isn't present despite the Apple Music web player trying to imitate the macOS version:
View attachment 2154172

But what if a new macOS user (used to this web app and also iOS/iPadOS) looks for the full-screen player on macOS?

By the way, this is what I am talking about by Full Screen player:
View attachment 2153627
Well, they may think it is nonexistent until they look at the menu bar.

I personally think the web client is a better EXPERIENCE than the native macOS app.
Same with Spotify, Spotify is a great example of using both the menu bar and inside the app.

What do I want Apple to do?
Well, I want Apple to make the apps mentioned above identical to the iPadOS version to fix consistency. The new apps that are based off the iPad version should not be this different...

Now I am not saying Apple should completely ditch the menu bar obviously because this would cause a lot of compatibility issues for apps, and for pro apps, the menu bar makes sense.

I just want macOS to be a lot more accessible for iPadOS and Windows users.

I also know a lot of average macOS users who never TOUCH the Menu bar. This would make macOS easier to use.

The menu bar should be reserved for pro-apps, the stock macOS apps that you would see on iPhone doesn't make sense for the menu bar to be used.

Bonus example - Safari:​

Just imagine if this was the default view in Safari, and had to use the Menu bar to make a new tab.
View attachment 2153109

Let me know what you think about this inconsistency.

There’s no inconsistency. Every app on macOS works like this, and we like that. The problem is iPadOS, where you must search for a button in every app

 

[RedTheReader]

I’ve been using macs since 1990 and the menu bar is right the way it is.

I wish today's macOS actually was as good as the earlier version of osX. But sadly its not.

 

[BellSystem]

I just want macOS to be a lot more accessible for iPadOS and Windows users.

That’s not the use case for MacOS. It’s a desktop environment to accomplish desktop tasks. Also a difference in interface elements does not constitute accessibility problems. That whole statement is just broken. If someone can’t handle the transition from an iPad app to a MacOS app….perhaps technology isn’t for them.

 

[Stormz]

I like menus, I have no problem with them. But then I'm an old git who's been using them for decades. If I was coming at this afresh, I'd be inclined to agree that less reliance on menus would make more sense. As long as the main interface doesn't become cluttered.

 

[Rainshadow]

The macOS vs iPadOS war rages on I see

Also, getting rid of the menu bar is a horrible idea. It exists for a reason and has been around since the original Macintosh. Removing the menu bar would break literally every app as every app uses it.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you clearly didn’t read the original post. Nowhere did it suggest getting rid of the menu bar. Nowhere.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you clearly didn’t read the original post. Nowhere did it suggest getting rid of the menu bar. Nowhere.

It did. They changed the title of the thread after everyone roasted the OP telling them how horrible of an idea that is.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I love the mac menu bar, and rather than remove it for any reason (to make apps designed for other os’ consistant to those other os’, for instance), they should in fact incorporate it in to the iPad. It’s the place to go for all functions. It’s massively consistent, massively obvious and massive convenient. Much better than the iPad where god knows where anything is from app to app.

 

[Basic75]

Technically; No as one is touch based and the other well not at the time and this is just one aspect.

It’s sad that you don’t understand the many differences but I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or facetious with your response.

Technically yes as they share just about everything except the GUI layer. It's sad when people give too much weight to superficial differences.

 

[boss.king]

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you clearly didn’t read the original post. Nowhere did it suggest getting rid of the menu bar. Nowhere.

The post was originally "Apple needs to ditch the menu bar". It's been edited and walked back several times since then.

 

[WilliApple]

The post was originally "Apple needs to ditch the menu bar". It's been edited and walked back several times since then.

I changed it because I was very unclear on what I was requesting.