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Apple Offers Refund After British Boy Spends $2500 on In-App Purchases in 15 Minutes
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If it is this easy for a 5 year old to hoodwink his parents and spend £1700, than one must wonder how many children would be accidentally (or otherwise) accessing pornography.
@flat five, samcraig, and gnasher
So this time no analogies since you seem to be a little hung up on those.
The point that most people are trying to make is that you don't give a 5 year old unsupervised access to something that can charge your credit card.
Also, Apple refunded the money. So the way that I see it, Apple is a reasonable company to deal with. Maybe this is one of the reasons why people buy Apple products -- good customer service.
The developer is just trying to make money -- yes, most people like to make money for the work that they do. Apple is just trying to make money -- yes, most companies like to make money for providing services. The father made a mistake -- yes, one that will probably not be repeated. The kid was to blame -- no, he's a five year old and we already established that the father made the mistake.
Why are you trying to spin this negatively when the company did the right thing? There far more examples in this world of companies doing the wrong thing.
So this time no analogies since you seem to be a little hung up on those.
The point that most people are trying to make is that you don't give a 5 year old unsupervised access to something that can charge your credit card.
Also, Apple refunded the money. So the way that I see it, Apple is a reasonable company to deal with. Maybe this is one of the reasons why people buy Apple products -- good customer service.
The developer is just trying to make money -- yes, most people like to make money for the work that they do. Apple is just trying to make money -- yes, most companies like to make money for providing services. The father made a mistake -- yes, one that will probably not be repeated. The kid was to blame -- no, he's a five year old and we already established that the father made the mistake.
Why are you trying to spin this negatively when the company did the right thing? There far more examples in this world of companies doing the wrong thing.
because i know exactly three people this has happened to (highest being $70..lowest being $30).. and even after i told them there has been a settlement in which apple is refunding for these situations, they're still "whatever, it's over with.. it was two years ago..etc"
and the way i see it, the lawsuit involves 20million accounts.. judging by my personal experience, at least half of the incidents have gone unreported.. so say 20million other accounts have had this happen at $25 each..
that's $500,000,000 we're talking about which apple/devs are pulling in even after the payouts.. these jokers are raking it in.. and you're sitting around thinking 'see, apple is doing the right thing.. such a good company
!"(and yes, those numbers aren't very accurate.. you've seen exactly how i arrived at them.. and i've tried to be on the conservative side with the guesstimate.. regardless, they're definitely pulling in multiple millions of $$ here via this setup of theirs)
We had exactly the same problem last year when one of my daughters bought about 450 work of "jewels" in some crappy free game we downloaded for her.
The big problem is that the in-app password setting was set to a 15 minute time-out and - tbh I can't remember the exact settings, but as it was my wife's iP4 they were set as per default. Anyway, it meant that there was a 15 minute time window following an app installation where in-app purchases could occur before password was required.
The developers of these apps know this and it's why they put these ludicrously priced options, no sane person is going to pay for them, it's a scam.
It's all very easy to say the parents should be aware, but people just aren't even aware that you can buy stuff inside games - I'm a long time iPhone user and consider myself quite knowledgeable on these matters, but never occurred to me that I need to go and change these settings.
The big problem is that the in-app password setting was set to a 15 minute time-out and - tbh I can't remember the exact settings, but as it was my wife's iP4 they were set as per default. Anyway, it meant that there was a 15 minute time window following an app installation where in-app purchases could occur before password was required.
The developers of these apps know this and it's why they put these ludicrously priced options, no sane person is going to pay for them, it's a scam.
It's all very easy to say the parents should be aware, but people just aren't even aware that you can buy stuff inside games - I'm a long time iPhone user and consider myself quite knowledgeable on these matters, but never occurred to me that I need to go and change these settings.
just for clarity, the kid didn't 'hoodwink' his parents.. while it's possible for a 5 year old to of bought the addons in an up_to_no_good manner, i truly believe he couldn't of been aware of its true implications or impact.. (i.e.- he shoved his little sister and the results were as if he shoved her down the stairs instead)
a 5 five year old can also have a basic grasp of money.. they know about the 99¢ store.. and they know a million dollars is a lot of dough.. free too- probably the first thing anybody learns about money
..the kid has seen his parents buy apps before and they know they have maybe a 50/50 chance of getting a new app.. somedays mom might be like "sure.. let's look for something" and other days she could just as likely be "No. you can't touch my phone today (much less get an app)".. but getting a new game or pressing strange buttons on a phone pretty much looks to be a highly casual affair.. like getting a little treat while grocery shopping.. sometimes you get it - sometimes not.. in contrast, they can also recognize a high dollar item such as a bike (but for some reason, they can't seem to recognize your car or house as something that's costing a lot.. i think they think those are just items a parent naturally owns and seemingly don't connect money to them yet.. ha!)
anyway, even if the kid was being bad, he certainly wasn't being bad to the extent of cheating his parents of $2500... i don't think people gain that capability until at least their teens..
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re: this is bad parenting
what do you think happened to the kids in these situations? do you think the parents were "oh johnny, you've seemed to make a little mistake.. it's ok, you'll learn someday i hope"
i don't -- i think many or even most of the kids in these scenarios got into the worst trouble they've ever been in their entire life.. and i guarantee if you ask them "so, what's the worst thing you've ever done?" ..they would tell you about the time they bought $50 worth of pixie doodles on dad's iPad... why? because the parents came down on them.. hard
the kids were parented in these situations and they were also taught a lesson, by their parents, in direct relation to their actions.. and to me, that's actually good parenting.. you can't always pre-parent your child.. i'm sorry but you just can't.. sometimes (well, a lot of times actually), a kid has to learn from their mistakes..
(but it's funny to me that i'm actually sitting here trying to explain this.. we were ALL kids once.. and we all know how it goes..)
now the parents.. so many of the people with iphones aren't tech savvy.. and when they set up their phone for the first time, it's probably a heck of a lot more confusing than it is for you (you being someone that's online and participating in a forum - which in itself is too far out there in tech land for half these smartphone users.. not everybody is a nerd about their phone, you know?)..
anyway, they finally get the thing set up and have created an itunes account, they've memorized their password etc.. they've bought some apps.. and none of this was easy to them.. just buying their first app probably took them 5 or 10 minutes.. most probably wish there weren't so many steps to take but they also know they're doing this because they've created a password when they entered their credit card number.. so they deal with it and they feel safe..
then the iaps start rolling in and they are truly blindsided.. they had no idea (actually, i myself had no idea for some time.)... these people aren't stupid.. they were completely unaware.. and understandably so..
this is the point where much of the responses in the thread break down -- this is the place where you can either A) empathize with the parents in these situations or B) call them stupid for no real reason.. they're not stupid and they're not bad parents (they meaning the vast majority)..
in fact, one of the people i know that had this happen is possibly the smartest person i've ever met.. and the other 2 aren't slouches either..
if anybody has been hoodwinked here, it's the parents.. i personally would go so far as to say they've been defrauded.. for a company that prides itself ,instills its trust on the general public, by claiming they're all about simplicity and making things that just work, they're d e f i n i t e l y not acting as such in this situation.. they know exactly what they're doing here.. this isn't an accident or a slipup by a programer.. it's a giant scheme designed to bring in large amounts of cash in a dishonest manner..
and yes, other corporations do the same thing.. and yes, many are far worse.. but by no means should we, the public, accept this type of behavior.. unfortunately, as witnessed in this thread, we are doing exactly that.. and feeling good about it <sigh>...
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just for clarity, the kid didn't 'hoodwink' his parents.. while it's possible for a 5 year old to of bought the addons in an up_to_no_good manner, i truly believe he couldn't of been aware of its true implications or impact.. (i.e.- he shoved his little sister and the results were as if he shoved her down the stairs instead)
a 5 five year old can also have a basic grasp of money.. they know about the 99¢ store.. and they know a million dollars is a lot of dough.. free too- probably the first thing anybody learns about money
the kid has seen his parents buy apps before and they know they have maybe a 50/50 chance of getting a new app.. somedays mom might be like "sure.. let's look for something" and other days she could just as likely be "No. you can't touch my phone today (much less get an app)".. but getting a new game or pressing strange buttons on a phone pretty much looks to be a highly casual affair.. like getting a little treat while grocery shopping.. sometimes you get it - sometimes not.. in contrast, they can also recognize a high dollar item such as a bike (but for some reason, they can't seem to recognize your car or house as something that's costing a lot.. i think they think those are just items a parent naturally owns and seemingly don't connect money to them yet.. ha!)
anyway, even if the kid was being bad, he certainly wasn't being bad to the extent of cheating his parents of $2500... i don't think people gain that capability until at least their teens..
---------------------------
re: this is bad parenting
what do you think happened to the kids in these situations? do you think the parents were "oh johnny, you've seemed to make a little mistake.. it's ok, you'll learn someday i hope"
i don't -- i think many or even most of the kids in these scenarios got into the worst trouble they've ever been in their entire life.. and i guarantee if you ask them "so, what's the worst thing you've ever done?" ..they would tell you about the time they bought $50 worth of pixie doodles on dad's iPad... why? because the parents came down on them.. hard
the kids were parented in these situations and they were also taught a lesson, by their parents, in direct relation to their actions.. and to me, that's actually good parenting.. you can't always pre-parent your child.. i'm sorry but you just can't.. sometimes (well, a lot of times actually), a kid has to learn from their mistakes..
(but it's funny to me that i'm actually sitting here trying to explain this.. we were ALL kids once.. and we all know how it goes..)
now the parents.. so many of the people with iphones aren't tech savvy.. and when they set up their phone for the first time, it's probably a heck of a lot more confusing than it is for you (you being someone that's online and participating in a forum - which in itself is too far out there in tech land for half these smartphone users.. not everybody is a nerd about their phone, you know?)..
anyway, they finally get the thing set up and have created an itunes account, they've memorized their password etc.. they've bought some apps.. and none of this was easy to them.. just buying their first app probably took them 5 or 10 minutes.. most probably wish there weren't so many steps to take but they also know they're doing this because they've created a password when they entered their credit card number.. so they deal with it and they feel safe..
then the iaps start rolling in and they are truly blindsided.. they had no idea (actually, i myself had no idea for some time.)... these people aren't stupid.. they were completely unaware.. and understandably so..
this is the point where much of the responses in the thread break down -- this is the place where you can either A) empathize with the parents in these situations or B) call them stupid for no real reason.. they're not stupid and they're not bad parents (they meaning the vast majority)..
in fact, one of the people i know that had this happen is possibly the smartest person i've ever met.. and the other 2 aren't slouches either..
if anybody has been hoodwinked here, it's the parents.. i personally would go so far as to say they've been defrauded.. for a company that prides itself ,instills its trust on the general public, by claiming they're all about simplicity and making things that just work, they're d e f i n i t e l y not acting as such in this situation.. they know exactly what they're doing here.. this isn't an accident or a slipup by a programer.. it's a giant scheme designed to bring in large amounts of cash in a dishonest manner..
and yes, other corporations do the same thing.. and yes, many are far worse.. but by no means should we, the public, accept this type of behavior.. unfortunately, as witnessed in this thread, we are doing exactly that.. and feeling good about it <sigh>...
Exactly. All Apple has to do is exclude IAPs from the 15-minute window (i.e. make them always password-restricted). They even attempted to do it in iOS 4.3 but then it somehow "slipped off the table", to whoever's advantage.
Would be worth investigating what their current stance is regarding this issue.
Or better yet, make it so free apps don't require a password. Kids can download all the free apps they want without bothering their parents, and won't have the app store password or 15 minute active window to get in and make tons of IAPs.
because i know exactly three people this has happened to (highest being $70..lowest being $30).. and even after i told them there has been a settlement in which apple is refunding for these situations, they're still "whatever, it's over with.. it was two years ago..etc"
and the way i see it, the lawsuit involves 20million accounts.. judging by my personal experience, at least half of the incidents have gone unreported.. so say 20million other accounts have had this happen at $25 each..
that's $500,000,000 we're talking about which apple/devs are pulling in even after the payouts.. these jokers are raking it in.. and you're sitting around thinking 'see, apple is doing the right thing.. such a good company
(and yes, those numbers aren't very accurate.. you've seen exactly how i arrived at them.. and i've tried to be on the conservative side with the guesstimate.. regardless, they're definitely pulling in multiple millions of $$ here via this setup of theirs)
Wow, you are a sorry excuse. First of all, your argument has no basis in fact (you admitted your numbers aren't accurate). Next, you go on a jealous rant about "apple/devs are pulling in" <insert inflated fictitious amount of money here>. And finally you have the audacity to attack me for my belief that Apple is doing the right thing, which in this case, it is or would you rather they made this father pay the money? I guess you probably would prefer that as it would make your rant true. You need not reply to me, you've completely proven your opinion is meaningless.
hmm. i didn't realize i was arguing or being in a situation where i would be admitting to something..
you asked me- why the negative spin and i told you why based on my personal experience with the matter..
didn't mean to come off as a jealous rant..
oh well.
The kid is only 5, he would not have that type of reasoning capacity at that age.
All in app purchases on whatever platform should make you jump through many hoops before allowing to purchase, especially as these games are aimed at kids.
Also comes down to parental control. On my daughters gmail account I don't store my credit card number in her Google wallet,I just add it every time she wants a new paid app, then remove it straight afterwards. No card presumably means nothing to charge to unless they have stored details of my card, which I believe they legally cannot do.
Could the same thing be done with an App Store account? Haven't used mine in a while so not very up to date on how it works.
iAds
At least these purchases were made through iTunes...
In France many iAds launch telephone calls to premium rate numbers when you click on them... so handing your iPhone to a child is taking a massive risk no matter how many parental controls you have set up!
I don't understand how these practices could be legal, and why Apple (who host all of the iAds if my understanding is correct) haven't been held to account.
At least these purchases were made through iTunes...
In France many iAds launch telephone calls to premium rate numbers when you click on them... so handing your iPhone to a child is taking a massive risk no matter how many parental controls you have set up!
I don't understand how these practices could be legal, and why Apple (who host all of the iAds if my understanding is correct) haven't been held to account.
Sorry, but if you can't see the distinction between those two situations then... does your daddy know that you are using his MacRumors account?
Its depressing how many people are confusing "Apple hands back $2500 it accidentally took from a 5 year-old*" with "Parents sue Apple for $250,000 claiming playing hames made their child obese".
Its even more depressing to hear so many people banging on about parental responsibility while defending the rights of businesses to have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever for their actions and make windfall profits from any momentary lapse of a parents attention. The idea that it should even be possible to notch up thousands of dollars worth of in-app purchases inside a game aimed at children is obscene.
(* For, it should be remembered 'virtual' goods with negligible marginal costs, so Apple's 'losses' are a few bucks payment processing fees - and I bet they have a sweet deal with the bank).
It's so funny to see how many people here say "Apple should do this", "Apple should do that" to avoid accidental IAPs. Apple has given a freaking slider to enable or disable this feature, in a very obvious position inside settings. They also made the most easy-to-use mobile OS (for which is also flamed by some - imagine that) so everyone can use it effectively, without being an expert.
How about think a second or third time before a parent gives his child such a device ? Especially if he/she has not enough knowledge to apply the required restrictions ? These devices can also get to the internet, what about the porn-site restrictions ? What about the violent games restrictions ?
I think it's really simple: If you cannot apply parental controls on a device/OS then don't let a kid play with it. Otherwise, take your kids to Cupertino office, leave them there, and let Apple raise them for you. And then you can rightfully judge them if they did a good work or not. Geez...
How about think a second or third time before a parent gives his child such a device ? Especially if he/she has not enough knowledge to apply the required restrictions ? These devices can also get to the internet, what about the porn-site restrictions ? What about the violent games restrictions ?
I think it's really simple: If you cannot apply parental controls on a device/OS then don't let a kid play with it. Otherwise, take your kids to Cupertino office, leave them there, and let Apple raise them for you. And then you can rightfully judge them if they did a good work or not. Geez...
I just checked the "game" in question. The top IAP is offered for 99€. How is this crap even allowed into the App Store?
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There, fixed it for you.
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Analogies fail because they don't represent the situation remotely. I'm not hung up on them. Other people are. You don't need an analogy.
Have you read all my posts? I'm not "spinning" this into a negative. I said earlier in the thread that Apple is providing good customer service here. I argued with someone who stated they shouldn't have refunded the money.
Do you think I spun this negative just because I suggest that the IAP process needs to be fixed or that preferences should be defaulted to the opposite of what they are? That's not spinning. That's assessing the situation and explaining what should be done to avoid the problem.
From what's been said in the press in the UK, he asked his father for the passcode, so he may well have typed it in himself the necessary number of times (at $100 per purchase). Either that or the device was running an outdated version of IOS (with the old 15 minute limit once the password is typed in).
This one works though.
When else could an average 5 year old drain $2,500 unchecked and from a parent's account in minutes?
It really is TOO easy to buy things (sometimes accidentally) for adults, let alone a 5 year old that does understand what they're clicking in a "kids" game.
What "old 15 minute limit"?
The device was at default settings on latest OS, thus allowing for mutliple unrestricted password-less IAPs during the 15-minute window since the password had been entered by the father to download the free app.
Please read up on all the stories describing this very same scenario and don't dilute the thread with yet more ignorance.
Absolutely
One of the very things wrong with the world today, nobody ever takes responsibility for there actions! It's always someone else's fault and the media helps find someone to blaim to make into something it's not! When really it's just ignorant people doing stupid things and not wanting to suffer the consequences!
One of the very things wrong with the world today, nobody ever takes responsibility for there actions! It's always someone else's fault and the media helps find someone to blaim to make into something it's not! When really it's just ignorant people doing stupid things and not wanting to suffer the consequences!
So you think Electronics Companies or Developers must take care that stupid parents cannot mistakenly give their toddlers access to their account? How about that: parents are responsible for their children. And for securing their own account information.
Apple has been very generous.
No. If I hand over something to a child, it is my responsibility to check it out before.
Anyway, Apple has very easy to understand introduction videos on its website in which getting to know your device is explained.
Apple can try to make people think, but it cannot force them.