No - outside forces can force a company to recall a product at their (not the customers expense) regardless of warranty status.
That is of course, if there is some kind of fraud regarding defective products.
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Apple on iPhone 4 Reception: Signal Strength Display Issue Only, Software Update Coming
- Thread starter fruitbat04
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No - outside forces can force a company to recall a product at their (not the customers expense) regardless of warranty status.
That is of course, if there is some kind of fraud regarding defective products.
I agree with you on the first half of your post only. The problem I have with the part which I highlighted is you have no idea if the fix will "FIX" the issue. You've basically decided that it won't. I hope that someday you and others on MR don't make a big mistake in your life hoping that somebody you affected will believe you when you say you are going to Right the Wrong, but instead they are calling you a liar and have total disbelief in you and have decided that you are a big loser who let them down. See how you'll feel then. We are ALL humans, Apple is made up of humans but many people here act as if they are nothing but mechanical robots that should be flawless.
Fraud is unlikely necessary. In many jurisdictions it is sufficient that the device is unfit for its purpose in order to get a refund. (not saying that's the case here, but I think some people could make that argument successfully).
Doesn't the iPhone come with a one year Hardware warranty? If so, and this update doesn't solve the issue, can't we get it replaced under hardware grounds?
I agree - I may have been a bit extreme in my example, but you are right that you can use the law to exercise consumer rights if you prove your case. It may vary from location to location of course. Laws do vary as we all know.
May I please help you with this word because you've used it repeatedly and it's wrong the way you're using it. The word is "DefectIVE". DefecTED means to abandon.
Apple making a mistake is forgivable. Apple not admitting that mistake and trying to belittle customer is not. If they had come out on day one and said "we know we messed up, and it will get sorted" then not only would people be at ease they would be happy to know that Apple actually cares about them and not just their money. So far there wasn't a problem, then people were holding phones incorectly (impossible, it's a phone) and now they are releasing a fix which addresses a different problem to try and mask the real one. We all make mistakes as you say but they don't affect millions of people and if they did we would have to rectify them.
May I please help you with this word because you've used repeatedly and it's wrong the way you're using it. The word is "DefectIVE". DefecTED means to abandon.
My bad. See how easy it is to admin a mistake...
Replaced, yes. Returned? Thats a tougher question. I would argue that most people what are that frustrated, that they give up on the phone, would exercise Apples return policy within its time. The only thing preventing defective exchanges would be simple inventory issues. Right now its too early to say that is defiantly going to be a long term problem.
No matter how I hold my iPhone 3G at my house it never completely loses signal and I'm always able to make calls. But, if I place my pinky finger over the little black strip on the bottom left side of my iPhone 4, my signal drops and I can't make any calls. That, Apple, has nothing to do with the number of bars being displayed.
I'm going to start a class action lawsuit against Apple. This is absolutely 100% ridiculous, the amount of money I spent on the iPhone4 product, and they still don't know how to make a handset after 4 years, with all their computer scientists and lab analysts. Where are they hiring these guys from? What is their hiring process? They should send all their employees back to SCHOOL to LEARN how to make a PROPER handset.
I'm returning my iPhone4 right away. Without proper reception everywhere, it's a crap product.
I'm going to start a class action lawsuit against Apple. This is absolutely 100% ridiculous, the amount of money I spent on the iPhone4 product, and they still don't know how to make a handset after 4 years, with all their computer scientists and lab analysts. Where are they hiring these guys from? What is their hiring process? They should send all their employees back to SCHOOL to LEARN how to make a PROPER handset.
I'm returning my iPhone4 right away. Without proper reception everywhere, it's a crap product.
But... but... it's thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnn!
My bad. See how easy it is to admin a mistake...
Yes I do, will you admit you made another mistake in your spelling?
Brings me back to my HUMAN argument. Correct, it was crap that Job's told people to hold the phone correctly, however, not much you can do in the interim (until a fix is recognized) other than that just so the customer's can at least USE the iPhone 4. So many of you here are thinking from a customer standpoint only. Apple is not a mom and pop shop from around the corner of your house in the hood, they are multi-billion dollar corporation that has major and minor stock holders and they can't just come out and say, "Hey you guys, sorry we screwed up the whole iPhone and it can't be fixed with software, but in fact the hardware is jacked up, but we can TRY and patch it but it's no guarantee". Currently Apple is about $250/share in Nasdaq, after a statement like that it sure to plummet WAY more than half of the $250. Corporations have to be careful on what they say publicly, especially when they are publicly traded.
Yeah, from a customer standpoint you feel all warm and fuzzy that Apple admitted that they made a junky-ass iPhone 4. But from a business standpoint they would fail miserably in terms of their financial standing just because they were trying to make you feel good. Now, in the laboratory, that's a different story, they may be creating a fix that will take care of everything and put this crap behind all of us, but hey, they deserve for you to give them a chance first or do you believe that humans who make mistakes are not deserving of a chance to Right the Wrong? Remember my earlier post before you answer that.
Yes I do, will you admit you made another mistake in your spelling?
Correct, it was crap that Job's told people to hold the phone correctly, however, not much you can do in the interim (until a fix is recognized) other than that just so the customer's can at least USE the iPhone 4. So many of you here are thinking from a customer standpoint only. Apple is not a mom and pop shop from around the corner of your house in the hood, they are multi-billion dollar corporation that has major and minor stock holders and they can't just come out and say, "Hey you guys, sorry we screwed up the whole iPhone and it can't be fixed with software, but in fact the hardware is jacked up, but we can TRY and patch it but it's no guarantee". Currently Apple is about $250/share in Nasdaq, after a statement like that it sure to plummet WAY more than half of the $250. Corporations have to be careful on what they say publicly, especially when they are publicly traded.
Yeah, from a customer standpoint you feel all warm and fuzzy that Apple admitted that they made a junky-ass iPhone 4. But from a business standpoint they would fail miserably in terms of their financial standing just because they were trying to make you feel good. Now, in the laboratory, that's a different story, they may be creating a fix that will take care of everything and put this crap behind all of us, but hey, they deserve for you to give them a chance first or do you believe that humans who make mistakes are not deserving of a chance to Right the Wrong? Remember my earlier post before you answer that.
Apple's number one proority should be their customers, I don't think I need to explain what happens to Apple without customers. You can't possably defend the way they have acted this far. Of course we are thinking from a customer point of view, how else should we think. Do you really think that I give a toss about the shareholders? Customer satisfaction should be the number one priorty for every business. Instead of saying "it's your fault" they should have said "trust us, we will make sure you're happy".
I don't have a problem with Apple. That's why I have an ipod and a Mac. I do have a problem with the iphone 4 and the way Apple has handled the situation.
It's common sense that if you cover a small antenna with your hand, the reception will be degraded. If you're in an area with a strong signal you won't notice the signal attenuation. If you're in an area with a weaker signal you're much more likely to notice the degraded signal by experiencing dropped calls, poor voice quality and slower download speeds -- when you cover the antenna.
Okay so don't cover the antenna. The problem is that Apple has designed this phone so that the antenna is covered when held in a normal manner.
I could not care less about the number of bars being displayed as long as the call or download speed is not affected.
When I hold the iphone 4 in a normal way -- the way I've always held cell phones -- the call quality and the download speeds are degraded if I'm not in an area where the signal strength is high. The way I held the 3GS never affected the call/download speed because the antenna wasn't in a place where I would naturally cover it.
These videos/pictures below demonstrate that this problem is related to an antenna design flaw not a software problem involving how many bars are shown.
The video below clearly shows the issue. The poster makes a call between a
3GS and a 4G phone. The call is dropped when the 4G is held in the lower left corner but not when the 3GS is held in the same manner. Yet Apple says:
"Since this mistake has been present since the original iPhone, this software update will also be available for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03PQyWp0mWE&feature=player_embedded
The photo on the web page in the link below (6th photo down) shows the speed test with the 4G on the table (840 kbps); with the phone in a case but held in the left hand (263 kbps) and when the phone is held without a cover
(42 Kbps).
http://gizmodo.com/5571171/iphone-4-loses-reception-when-you-hold-it-by-the-antenna-band
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/06/500x_handsonreceptionprobs.jpg
This video shows the "speed test" with and without the phone being held.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmVpoccPnc&feature=player_embedded#!
This is clearly a hardware design problem involving the placement of the antenna and the case/bumper only helps somewhat.
Apple's assertation that the number of bars being displayed is inaccurate is likely true but irrelevant to the flaw in the antenna design. In other words, the software update won't help fix the problems being experienced by so many and demonstrated in these videos/pictures.
It's common sense that if you cover a small antenna with your hand, the reception will be degraded. If you're in an area with a strong signal you won't notice the signal attenuation. If you're in an area with a weaker signal you're much more likely to notice the degraded signal by experiencing dropped calls, poor voice quality and slower download speeds -- when you cover the antenna.
Okay so don't cover the antenna. The problem is that Apple has designed this phone so that the antenna is covered when held in a normal manner.
I could not care less about the number of bars being displayed as long as the call or download speed is not affected.
When I hold the iphone 4 in a normal way -- the way I've always held cell phones -- the call quality and the download speeds are degraded if I'm not in an area where the signal strength is high. The way I held the 3GS never affected the call/download speed because the antenna wasn't in a place where I would naturally cover it.
These videos/pictures below demonstrate that this problem is related to an antenna design flaw not a software problem involving how many bars are shown.
The video below clearly shows the issue. The poster makes a call between a
3GS and a 4G phone. The call is dropped when the 4G is held in the lower left corner but not when the 3GS is held in the same manner. Yet Apple says:
"Since this mistake has been present since the original iPhone, this software update will also be available for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03PQyWp0mWE&feature=player_embedded
The photo on the web page in the link below (6th photo down) shows the speed test with the 4G on the table (840 kbps); with the phone in a case but held in the left hand (263 kbps) and when the phone is held without a cover
(42 Kbps).
http://gizmodo.com/5571171/iphone-4-loses-reception-when-you-hold-it-by-the-antenna-band
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/06/500x_handsonreceptionprobs.jpg
This video shows the "speed test" with and without the phone being held.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmVpoccPnc&feature=player_embedded#!
This is clearly a hardware design problem involving the placement of the antenna and the case/bumper only helps somewhat.
Apple's assertation that the number of bars being displayed is inaccurate is likely true but irrelevant to the flaw in the antenna design. In other words, the software update won't help fix the problems being experienced by so many and demonstrated in these videos/pictures.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2004..._is_right_iphone_4_signal_woes_overblown.html
Antenna Expert: Apple is Right, iPhone 4 Signal Woes Overblown
Jeff Bertolucci, PC WorldJul 2, 2010 8:11 pm
Apple on Friday issued a carefully worded statement admitting that, yes, there's something wrong with the iPhone 4; but, no, it's not the alleged problem you've heard about.
While Apple fessed up to using a flawed formula to calculate the number of bars of signal strength displayed on the iPhone, it also defended the iPhone 4's much-maligned antenna design, calling the handset's wireless performance "the best we have ever shipped."
Corporate denial at its worst? Not so, says Spencer Webb, president of AntennaSys, an antenna design, integration, and consulting firm. Webb on Friday ran preliminary tests on the iPhone 4's antenna and reached the same conclusion as Apple: Everything's (mostly) okay.
"My conclusion is that all the hype has been just hype," Webb says. "It's not any more sensitive to hand position that was the first-generation iPhone--and probably many other phones on the market."
Some users report that when they hold the iPhone 4 tightly and cover the black strip in the lower left corner of the metal band, signal strength can drop 4 or even 5 bars. That, they claim, is evidence of the phone's flawed antenna design.
Webb and a colleague decided to run their own tests, which he admits were brief and subjective. "This was a non-scientific test, but it was done by two engineers who deal with RF devices for a living," he says.
First, they placed a call on an iPhone 4 while holding the handset from the top. They then switched to the infamous "grip of death"--holding the bottom of the phone tightly with two hands.
"We succeeded in taking a five-bar display and reducing it to one bar by doing that," Webb says. "But the call remained solid and never dropped."
Next, they took Webb's first-generation iPhone (from 2007) and repeated the experiment: "We got the exact same results." Their findings, he says, support Apple's contention that nearly all of today's cell phones are susceptible to human interference.
"(G)ripping almost any mobile phone in certain ways will reduce its reception by one or more bars. This is true of iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, as well as many Droid, Nokia and RIM phones," Apple said in its statement.
Webb also took a piece of electrical tape and wrapped it around the iPhone's metal band where the hand was causing interference. He then repeated the experiment above. "There was absolutely no difference between having the electrical tape and not having it," he reports.
Webb says he's agreed with Apple's stance from the beginning, and has written as much in his blog. He plans to do more iPhone antenna testing next week and publish the results. He's confident his findings will concur with what he's seen thus far.
"Any handheld radio device is going to suffer the same way if you put your hand over the antenna," he says. "You're going to cause a reduction in performance, period. That's not a news flash."
Well, if that's the case, why all the controversy now?
"Over the years we've gone from cell phones that were bricks with antennas popping up the top, to flip phones with retractable antennas, to phones with bumps for antennas, to phones that are rectangular monoliths that don't have any external antenna protrusion at all," he says.
The latest design means that today's consumer "doesn't have an antenna consciousness. All of a sudden, we're discovering, 'Oh my gosh, there's this antenna, and we can cover it with our hands and it affects performance.'"
"Yes, it does," he adds. "It always has, and it always will."
Antenna Expert: Apple is Right, iPhone 4 Signal Woes Overblown
Jeff Bertolucci, PC WorldJul 2, 2010 8:11 pm
Apple on Friday issued a carefully worded statement admitting that, yes, there's something wrong with the iPhone 4; but, no, it's not the alleged problem you've heard about.
While Apple fessed up to using a flawed formula to calculate the number of bars of signal strength displayed on the iPhone, it also defended the iPhone 4's much-maligned antenna design, calling the handset's wireless performance "the best we have ever shipped."
Corporate denial at its worst? Not so, says Spencer Webb, president of AntennaSys, an antenna design, integration, and consulting firm. Webb on Friday ran preliminary tests on the iPhone 4's antenna and reached the same conclusion as Apple: Everything's (mostly) okay.
"My conclusion is that all the hype has been just hype," Webb says. "It's not any more sensitive to hand position that was the first-generation iPhone--and probably many other phones on the market."
Some users report that when they hold the iPhone 4 tightly and cover the black strip in the lower left corner of the metal band, signal strength can drop 4 or even 5 bars. That, they claim, is evidence of the phone's flawed antenna design.
Webb and a colleague decided to run their own tests, which he admits were brief and subjective. "This was a non-scientific test, but it was done by two engineers who deal with RF devices for a living," he says.
First, they placed a call on an iPhone 4 while holding the handset from the top. They then switched to the infamous "grip of death"--holding the bottom of the phone tightly with two hands.
"We succeeded in taking a five-bar display and reducing it to one bar by doing that," Webb says. "But the call remained solid and never dropped."
Next, they took Webb's first-generation iPhone (from 2007) and repeated the experiment: "We got the exact same results." Their findings, he says, support Apple's contention that nearly all of today's cell phones are susceptible to human interference.
"(G)ripping almost any mobile phone in certain ways will reduce its reception by one or more bars. This is true of iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, as well as many Droid, Nokia and RIM phones," Apple said in its statement.
Webb also took a piece of electrical tape and wrapped it around the iPhone's metal band where the hand was causing interference. He then repeated the experiment above. "There was absolutely no difference between having the electrical tape and not having it," he reports.
Webb says he's agreed with Apple's stance from the beginning, and has written as much in his blog. He plans to do more iPhone antenna testing next week and publish the results. He's confident his findings will concur with what he's seen thus far.
"Any handheld radio device is going to suffer the same way if you put your hand over the antenna," he says. "You're going to cause a reduction in performance, period. That's not a news flash."
Well, if that's the case, why all the controversy now?
"Over the years we've gone from cell phones that were bricks with antennas popping up the top, to flip phones with retractable antennas, to phones with bumps for antennas, to phones that are rectangular monoliths that don't have any external antenna protrusion at all," he says.
The latest design means that today's consumer "doesn't have an antenna consciousness. All of a sudden, we're discovering, 'Oh my gosh, there's this antenna, and we can cover it with our hands and it affects performance.'"
"Yes, it does," he adds. "It always has, and it always will."
Yes I do, will you admit you made another mistake in your spelling?
You're comparing a spelling mistake to Apple P**sing off hundreds of thousands of people?
How about this? The spelling is correct, you're just reading it wrong! Or every dictionary written is wrong. Or instead of correctly my spelling I'll wipe my ass. Sound familer?
An Antenna Expert that tests two iPhones and comes to a conclusion? Great testing there.
People have already demostrated dropped calls (me included) so this post proves nothing. Well actually it proves that ordinary people know more about this problem than an Antenna Expert. He should hold his head it shame, or better still find another profession.
You certainly can if you have not personally experienced a problem. I have not. My iPhone 4 has better reception than my iPhone 1 in all gradations of signal strength. What percentage of customers are we talking about here? Does anybody know?
yes, and the tests weren't scientific at all, and they admit that.
and yes Consumer reports also published their lab tests didn't show it, but say their journalists can reproduce when a mile or 2 from the lab
so when that antenna company publishes their real tests ,, and when consumer reports performs the tests in the field in real life conditions.. Maybe then will i pay attention to the reports
its all just smoke and mirrors on Apple's part. 2 tests of actual dB change make it clear: If you picked up an iPhone 3GS and held it normally you might get a less than 2 dB signal drop or about 2/3rds the unheld signal strength. Pick up an iPhone 4 and hold it normally and you get an 18+ dB drop or about 1/80th (!) the unheld signal strength.
This is a design flaw and all the dancing around won't change that. Fortunately just about any kind of cover will fix this. Finally got to see the Apple bumpers - massively ugly, so got the Ghost Armor. With it I no longer drop calls at home so that solves my problem though I still hope Apple gets run through the legal wringer over this.
(as an aside that's why the idea that corporations are people is ridiculous, the 'right thing' for a corporation is to do whatever makes the most money, the 'right thing' for a person to do is admit their errors and behave ethically.)
According to polls about 40% have seen the problem in the US and UK. The people that have seen the problem can go to other locations where the issue doesn't occour so this could explain why the other 60% haven't seen it yet.
I'm not defending Apple. Look at the first line of my post describing how I felt about Steve Jobs suggestion about holding the phone. What I AM doing is seeing it from both sides and customers should see it from both sides as well. Stock holders ARE customers too ya know. Apple is a very high profile company and if their stock plummets and they end up a loser company you can best believe that we will be living in Microsoft LA LA land, do you want that? The reason for the existence of the Android phone and it's store is because of Apple showing competition to Google, Microsoft has been no competition for goodness sake.
Of course Apple needs customers to stay alive just like any company, they have actually made a statement and said they are fixing the issue. Many people here refuse to give them a chance saying that Apple is lying and there's no way to fix the problem, that's inhuman and it shows from a customer standpoint people are just acting like whiny babies stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum.
My issue with this whole thread is that many of the same people (sorry, but you're included in this Citrate) repeatedly rant in disbelief and call Apple liars but refuse to return their iPhone 4's. I know for a fact that if I'm unhappy with the company I spent money with and I have zero belief that they will fix what they said they would and I'm not happy with the statement they put out I will return my product and buy from a competitor.
So funny how many people PRAISED the Android, Droid, DroidX (whatever they are called) but after the iPhone 4 the praises went sorta quite. Well, if the iPhone 4 sux, and you have disbelief in Apple then why not return the iPhone 4 and go buy the Android???
Is it suddenly not worth you returning your defective iPhone for, or is it just the usual trolls on this forum that just want to stir things up on MR and were never even considering the Android?