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Apple Ordered to Help FBI Recover Data From San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone 5c

A relevant quote from a law professor at the University of California:

"Here you have the government using a catch-all statute from the 18th-Century to compel a technology company to 'assist' law enforcement by designing custom software to backdoor an encrypted device. The ramifications of such a precedent could be tremendous. If the government can compel Apple to provide custom software, why can’t they compel Facebook to customize analytics that predicts the criminality of their user base?"

I hope Apple really are not actually able do this. Forcing legal precedents down such a road would be a quantum leap into the sort of world described by Orwell (a "downtrodden" Brit, btw) - and we're already half there anyway. And none of that surveillance-saturated society stuff would "work" anyway - just look at the way current machine learning algorithms programmed into drones in Pakistan kill thousands of completely innocent people.

There have to be mighty checks on governments' wishes to take away your privacy. As Tim Cook says, the bad guys as well as the good guys will get in once back-doors are introduced.
 
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Is Syed Farook still alive and in custody? If so, they should be able to force him to unlock his iPhone.

It's like saying "I have evidence at my house, but I'm not giving you the key" isn't it? Just force the damn key/password from the suspected criminal, don't make an entire company change their encryption policies?
 
thekeyring said:
Is Syed Farook still alive and in custody? If so, they should be able to force him to unlock his iPhone.

It's like saying "I have evidence at my house, but I'm not giving you the key" isn't it? Just force the damn key/password from the suspected criminal, don't make an entire company change their encryption policies?
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wow. So much idiocy in one post.

1) he's dead.

2) it's not like a key because it isn't physical. He can be compelled to use Touch ID because that's physical. A password is in his brain. He can be no more forced to divulge it than you can be forced to go on tv and describe your genitals in vivid detail.
 
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nicho said:
wow. So much idiocy in one post.

1) he's dead.

2) it's not like a key because it isn't physical. He can be compelled to use Touch ID because that's physical. A password is in his brain. He can be no more forced to divulge it than you can be forced to go on tv and describe your genitals in vivid detail.
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I was completely unaware of this story - it hasn't had much coverage here (I'm not in the US). Hence why I opened with "is he alive?"

Secondly, I know it's not physical like a key. Does this mean if you have a warehouse which contains evidence that is protected by a keypad, the police can't get you to open it?

Thirdly, other non-physical information is often obtained by the police by force.
 
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thekeyring said:
I was completely unaware of this story - it hasn't had much coverage here (I'm not in the US). Hence why I opened with "is he alive?"

Secondly, I know it's not physical like a key. Does this mean if you have a warehouse which contains evidence that is protected by a keypad, the police can't get you to open it?

Thirdly, other non-physical information is often obtained by the police by force.
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1, perhaps a quick google or read of the story might have helped inform you.

2, if it's a warehouse then they don't need your keypad, they can just take the door down or bash the windows in. It's a silly analogy to use. They could easily open up the phone in this case but it wouldn't do them much good. Even if the guy said "by the way, I surrounded the entire perimeter wall with explosives and it'll trigger unless you enter the password at the door" the best they could do was a) convince him to talk, perhaps in the hope it'll be in his best interests b) get their best explosives techs on it or c) blow the place up to make it safe and abandon all hope of getting in.

3, say what? You've been watching the bill too much. You can't believe the police are actually legally allowed to torture someone? Also, physical coercion is probably useless against a terrorist intent on killing himself anyway. What can you actually threaten him with he wouldn't willingly give up?
 
gnasher729 said:
[doublepost=1455701714][/doublepost]
Except you can't install that OS while the phone is locked.
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Tim Cook said:
Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation
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Well either way that's how the FBI wants it done.
 
Why not just cut his hand off and pump blood through it/attach it to a pig and touch the phones Touch ID sensor? Boom unlocked
 
The FBI's case here is thin. The perpetrators are both dead and there's no substantive evidence that they were part of a larger cell.

No, this is Comey's FBI using this as a sample case to force through laws banning encryption. He said he would and this is his vehicle.
 
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firewood said:
The goal isn't to end well. The goal is to end less badly than the plane crashing into a building containing many thousands of people. Trying to end well can end up that badly or worse.
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The plane will crash and kill hundreds and potentially thousands (depending where it lands) if bullets hit critical components. Passenger Planes are not designed to withstand bullets. They are made up of composite materials.

It's the reason Air Marshals fought for special bullets to use in their service weapons.

The last thing you want is a regular Joe having to immediately react to a pressure situation like a trained professional. Especially aboard an aircraft.
 
vpndev said:
No, this is Comey's FBI using this as a sample case to force through laws banning encryption. He said he would and this is his vehicle.
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Could well be. As the Washington Post reports, "FBI Supervisory Special Agent Christopher Pluhar stated in a declaration that he was able to obtain from Apple all the data backed up to its iCloud servers from the phone."

So the FBI may just be milking this whole nasty episode.
 
*who*? which judge? "a judge" is unreasonably forgiving to this person, we have the right to know who thinks that they are above the law.
[doublepost=1455720245][/doublepost]*who*? which judge? "a judge" is unreasonably forgiving to this person, we have the right to know who thinks that they are smarter than us, and
furi0usbee said:
So if Apple is able to turn off the auto-erase after 10 tries, and let someone try unlimited passwords. Well, if they used a 4 digit PIN, that means essentially there IS a backdoor to get in, as it won't take very long to try out all the combinations. This case could shed light on what exactly Apple *can* do with our phones, even if we lock them down to their fullest.
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precisely why i don't use a 4-digit pin. i use a >10 char password with numbers and symbols, and i turn my phone off so that if compelled to turn it on my finger print won't help anyway.
 
drumcat said:
At least about the coffee... that actually had merit. You can't serve food at a molten, unsafe temperature. The woman suffered third-degree burns. There's hot coffee, and there's coffee that can actually put someone in the ICU. A paper cup and 180f+ liquid was, in fact, outside of the expectations of a reasonable customer. If I handed you a cup and said it's "nearly boiling" liquid, you would treat it differently than if I said it was a food product.

The US Legal System... ugh.
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To actually get coffee that isn't near boiling point would result in me wanting my money back. You americans are really crazy. Probably would consider my near 100° Earl Grey unfit for consumption, too...
 
Just hand apple the phone and let them do it. Don't give the tools to the FBI to do it. Have apple open it up and then let the FBI pull the info it needs.
 
techwhiz said:
You might be able to stop the wipe after X-attrmepts if you already had access to the device.
Being able to disable auto-wipe implies a backdoor.

If the FBI was smart, they would remove the flash from the phone and send the chips to the NSA.
You don't need the whole phone only the flash in a chip socket.
Ask Apple for the layout of the OS and data. Crank away...
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They don't care about this data per se. They only care about getting a tool to access all iPhones everywhere. Total information awareness per Snowden's disclosures.

I suspect they have over 1000 iPhones sitting there they would love to crack.

Cite:

The court order:
https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/02/17/apple_order.pdf

The scope is wider than just getting info from one phone.
Cite:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-shooters-iphone-to-create-new-backdoor.shtml

Besides the President says it was workplace violence not terrorism.
 
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DipDog3 said:
With a supercomputer, the FBI could crack a simple six-digit numeric code in about 22 hours, but a complex alpha-numeric password could take over 10 years.
Click to expand...

I thought the iphone passcode can only be a 4/6 digit number?
 
AustinIllini said:
I hate that uneducated people are making impossible demands.
Click to expand...

Is it impossible? Read this blog to gain a full understanding:

http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/
[doublepost=1455729114][/doublepost]
jennyp said:
A relevant quote from a law professor at the University of California:

"Here you have the government using a catch-all statute from the 18th-Century to compel a technology company to 'assist' law enforcement by designing custom software to backdoor an encrypted device. The ramifications of such a precedent could be tremendous. If the government can compel Apple to provide custom software, why can’t they compel Facebook to customize analytics that predicts the criminality of their user base?"

I hope Apple really are not actually able do this. Forcing legal precedents down such a road would be a quantum leap into the sort of world described by Orwell (a "downtrodden" Brit, btw) - and we're already half there anyway. And none of that surveillance-saturated society stuff would "work" anyway - just look at the way current machine learning algorithms programmed into drones in Pakistan kill thousands of completely innocent people.

There have to be mighty checks on governments' wishes to take away your privacy. As Tim Cook says, the bad guys as well as the good guys will get in once back-doors are introduced.
Click to expand...


To be fair, this "catch all" statue from the 18th-century is from 1789, and the US constitution from 17987. Therefore, being fair, it seems like we should give enough credit to this All Writs Act as we do the constitution, no?

Also: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ It is pretty convincing that the Apple IS able to comply, specifically because this was a 5C and not a 5S or greater.
 
budselectjr said:
Stay strong Apple.
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Sure, Apple, stay strong - and keep on protecting terrorists...? Because privacy, right? Hey, even mass murderers need their data to stay confidential.

Gee, if Tim Cook or Jony Ive or Eddy Cue's families were murdered in a horrific shooting you think they'd still protect that iPhone?

You want to know what's ironic? It's totally ok for Google or Facebook or WhatsApp to exploit all your personal data for financial gain, but when it comes to investigating mass murder it's hey, privacy and all that stuff.

Amazing how that works.
 
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