Apple Outlines Security and Privacy of CSAM Detection System in New Document

[Mac4Mat]

Interesting because the country that seems so in tune with Apple and especially the story run in the New York Times

Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China​

: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...obile-phone-face-scans-data-cpc-a9228371.html

Apple Outlines Security and Privacy of CSAM Detection System in New Document

What and who gives them a right to do that? It is still invading our PRIVACY.

forums.macrumors.com

Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China (Published 2021)

Apple built the world’s most valuable business on top of China. Now it has to answer to the Chinese government.

www.nytimes.com

Apple suggest they have not been leaned on and would not pass on data to government and I want to believe its true as the Apple I know would never do that, but given some of the comment in the article from New York Times, others might suggest they've already done that and Apple need to step away from this latest foolhardy destruction of their own brand, where privacy has been such an important pillar, one they have played well....up until this latest situation.

 

[januarydrive7]

It shouldn't surprise us if some people here in the forum are working under Apple's payroll.

It shouldn't surprise us that a company like Apple is monitoring forums and is paying people to post.

Oooh, can I get in on this?

 

[Wildkraut]

I’m starting to see more and more comments from the limited number of people who seem to be ok with this spying. I smell Apple’s PR team at work with their influencers

They have a crap marketing team, and also crap community managers.

 

[4jasontv]

No, "stupid" as defined by law and/or the terms of service you agreed to with Apple. There's no mystery here.

Do you mean the ones the unilaterally changed alongside an update I had already paid for? Seems unreasonable to seek changes to an agreement as a condition of fulfilling the initial contract.

 

[farewelwilliams]

"It's your choice, but your parents want to know you're safe."

When did I give Apple the right to speak to my children on my behalf? Don't they have any idea how creepy that is?

If you never turned it on, Apple won't speak to your children...?

Did you even understand what's going on with iMessages?

 

[MozMan68]

As someone else already said, you don't own any server space on iCloud. You're renting it and entered into a legal agreement with Apple regarding it. Here's the document:

Legal - iCloud - Apple

Terms

www.apple.com

Note especially the following paragraph:

View attachment 1818341

Who do you think you are coming in here with all of your fancy facts and such… 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Mac4Mat]

Don’t want a backdoor. Can we stop this by not updating to iOS 15?

I doubt it, because no doubt someone will find a security flaw and advise you need to update your OS to do that...

 

[januarydrive7]

Exactly. They're breaking into my house to look at my stuff without the authority to do so.


But the issue here is the reverse.

You would need to

A: actually be a cop

AND

B: have a warrant to enter my house to check my bags.

By US law, only law enforcement needs a warrant. Also, you invited them into your house (installed their operating system), and invited them to look at specific things by saying you want them to hold on to them for you.

 

[4jasontv]

If you never turned it on, Apple won't speak to your children...?

Did you even understand what's going on with iMessages?

Coming from a company that sold me a tracker that won't work by design when I attach it to my most valuable things.

 

[januarydrive7]

"It's your choice, but your parents want to know you're safe."

When did I give Apple the right to speak to my children on my behalf? Don't they have any idea how creepy that is?

This is only active if you, as the parent, activates it on your children's phone. They're giving you an option to use this feature, or not. They're not speaking to your children in any way, as you need to be the one to turn on the feature.

 

[ececlv]

No, they're protecting from e.g., China trying to find CCP opposition by inserting photos of CCP opposition leaders into the CSAM database unless the US agrees that those CCP opposition photos are also CSAM.

So csam is because of US laws? But we wont trust csam so we will ask another nation. But i am not under another nations laws so why ask then if something is illegal in the US?

 

[Mac4Mat]

Who do you think you are coming in here with all of your fancy facts and such… 🤣🤣🤣

Except you clearly do not understand how this system works, the software recheck on YOUR hardware, not once its in iCloud. Its part of the operating system or will be.

SURVEILLANCE is what it is, and no amount of obfuscation changes the fact it is surveillance, whether for a believed good cause or not, and where its likely to damage attempts to catch these child porn paddlers, because Apple have effectively telegraphed their intention and in the process that will make it harder for agencies authorised by in the main elected governments to pursue this criminals.

No one elected Apple to engage in surveillance of equipment they sold to their customers, let alone in the name of child safety, when it isn't going to make children safer, its likely to put them more at risk by telegraphing the intentions , allowing those people involved to take evasive action.

 

[dialogos]

It's your choice to install iOS 15, or not. You could be part of I'm assuming will be a relatively small, but significant group of people who protest this with their actions. Apple is pretty happy to publish percentages of upgraders. In short, this is not something that is being introduced without your choice.

You realize that Apple (or insert any other cloud storage provider) already is surveilling your photos when they are upload to their servers, right? This is just pushing where it's done. The only coherent argument for why they might be doing this is if they have plans for full E2EE for iCloud Photos in the future. The alternatives given (government bullying/mandates) are laughable --- if this were the case then we'd either A) not get any announcement that they are doing this and/or B) get a different announcement that the government is attempting to force them to do something and they are doing everything they can to fight it.

I will post something I have written many times here.

Apple long time ago released an iOS version where icloud stream was ON without user's permission. I was never using icloud photos but I had medical documents stored in my photos. They were automatically uploaded on the cloud without my consent. That happened to many others. Apple should have asked for permission first..... But of course they knew better.

I dont use icloud photos but I still do not want such a system installed on my device.

Regarding your comment on laughable arguments. Tell me please, why Apple stepped back to China? Or can you please explain this?

Saying ‘I leave,’ Apple took a step back in Russia! – Technology News – News 23 – News23.ORG

news23.org

Regarding people who will upgrade, yes I don't doubt that Apple may succeed with their goal. It's a 2 trillion dollars company after all with great resources and amazing marketing. So, yes, your favorite team may win.. So what? It's just amazing how some people love so much to always support the stronger!

Finally .. If they were about to release E2E encryption, I believe, they would have already announced it after all this PR mess. If they end up releasing it at this point it, I personally think it will be their strategy to cover this mess. Solely to send the message that they wanted to release E2E since the beginning. Of course some fans here will clap because their team will have "won" even if that release will be more of a PR disaster cover up.

 

[usagora]

Who do you think you are coming in here with all of your fancy facts and such… 🤣🤣🤣

I know, I know. Reality is so much less exciting than the world of conspiracy theories, LOL! Sorry to ruin the party.

 

[NoIdentity]

So glad I don’t live in the U.S. If Apple ever rolls out this back door to my country I’ll sell all my Apple gear.

If you live in EU, there is a report from february by the EU that goes into the pros and cons of scanning for CSAM and the impact on human rights. It concludes something along the lines that the current legislation needs amendments.

Link to the study

 

[Mac4Mat]

Not to mention people from Germany who keep disliking all my posts, when this system doesn’t even work in Deutschland.

The problem is users who have paid for their equipment, often based on Apple using privacy as a platform, do understand the situation, all too well, which is why they are objecting to it.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I guess since Apple is doubling down, we probably have a few tough questions to ask ourselves. Do you still trust Apple, and what are you going to do next? If you hate this move, then supporting the company is just going to send the message that you as a consumer will put up with anything and still remain a customer.

With this, Apple lost the fragile trust I had on their privacy stance. I always suspected it could change in the tenuous global marketplace. Their last WWDC seemed pretty solid--then they drop this just ahead of their next round of OS updates. No amount of corporate pressers is going to make it better, IMO. These companies work hard to make you their fanatics for a reason, and I think we're looking at it. Now you have to decide where your allegiance lies and what you're willing to put up with.

 

[JCCL]

Weird, because I haven’t seen a single coherent explanation of why it’s a problem if your own device scans your photos for child porn, and only does so if you are trying to upload onto apple’s servers, and only produces information to Apple if you have at least thirty child porn photos that you are trying to upload.

It is constantly looking at stuff in a device I fully paid for, I own. Not Apple. My employer owns any work provided computing system I use to perform my job. Their are free to audit it as they please. Apple forfeit all ownership of my personal iPhone when I paid them over 1K for it - they have no business looking into it. See the difference?

What's next? Car manufacturers will have always on camera and microphones in my car, looking constantly at them , so that they can determine if I ever kidnap anyone?

 

[januarydrive7]

So csam is because of US laws? But we wont trust csam so we will ask another nation. But i am not under another nations laws so why ask then if something is illegal in the US?

It seems the idea here is to prevent any one county's (tyrannical) laws from abusing the system. CSAM being illegal seems to be fairly universal, so US, China, UK, etc. will all agree on what is/isn't CSAM. But if the US wants to find trump supporters, then China, UK, etc. would have to agree that the trump support photos are in fact CSAM, which why would they? It's a checks and balances of sorts that provides another layer of protection from abuse.

 

[JCCL]

The problem is users who have paid for their equipment, often based on Apple using privacy as a platform, do understand the situation, all too well, which is why they are objecting to it.

Doesn't work in Germany FOR NOW. The framework and precedent is there. Do you think all government won't go crazy for it?

Luckily Germany and EU have stronger Privacy Laws, but the rest of us?

 

[dialogos]

If you live in EU, there is a report from february by the EU that goes into the pros and cons of scanning for CSAM and the impact on human rights. It concludes something along the lines that the current legislation needs amendments.

Link to the study

Thanks for the report!

 

[usagora]

Do you mean the ones the unilaterally changed alongside an update I had already paid for? Seems unreasonable to seek changes to an agreement as a condition of fulfilling the initial contract.

You're paying for iOS updates? Hate to tell you this, but you're getting gypped by somebody. They're free directly from Apple. As for the rest of your comment, welcome to the real world. Contracts and agreements can be changed if all parties are notified and given a chance to accept the terms (unless the original contract had language that made exceptions for certain changes without notice or opportunity to agree to).

 

[januarydrive7]

I will post something I have written many times here.

Apple long time ago released an iOS version where icloud stream was ON without user's permission. I was never using icloud photos but I had medical documents stored in my photos. They were automatically uploaded on the cloud without my consent. That happened to many others. Apple should have asked for permission first..... But of course they knew better.

I dont use icloud photos but I still do not want such a system installed on my device.

I agree this seems like a terrible thing. This should have only been done with user consent.

Regarding your comment on laughable arguments. Tell me please, why Apple stepped back to China? Or can you please explain this?

Saying ‘I leave,’ Apple took a step back in Russia! – Technology News – News 23 – News23.ORG

news23.org

These cases seem to be following laws of the lands they operate in. Note that neither of these cases required Apple to alter their operating system in any way, and any requests from any government to do so has been denied full stop.

Regarding people who will upgrade, yes I don't doubt that Apple may succeed with their goal. It's a 2 trillion dollars company after all with great resources and amazing marketing. So, yes, your favorite team may win.. So what? It's just amazing how some people love so much to always support the stronger!

I agree that I like Apple products, but I don't blindly support them. I just a ton of misleading or misunderstood postings on something that I happen to have a bit of expertise on, and feel like speaking out is appropriate.

Finally .. If they were about to release E2E encryption, I believe, they would have already announced it after all this PR mess. If they end up releasing it at this point it, I personally think it will be their strategy to cover this mess. Solely to send the message that they wanted to release E2E since the beginning. Of course some fans here will clap because their team will have "won" even if that release will be more of a PR disaster cover up.

I agree to an extent --- announcing E2E encryption up from would be better. To be fair, though, the last time Apple announced something before it was ready (Airpower), controversy ensued when they failed to deliver. I would clap for E2E not because of "my team" "winning," but because E2EE would be a better option than what we have today.

 

[4jasontv]

You're paying for iOS updates? Hate to tell you this, but you're getting gypped by somebody. They're free directly from Apple. As for the rest of your comment, welcome to the real world. Contracts and agreements can be changed if all parties are notified and given a chance to accept the terms (unless the original contract had language that made exceptions for certain changes without notice or opportunity to agree to).

I paid for the device, which includes updates and supports. It also includes iCloud and many other features because Apple has decided they want to bundle all of these services with the hardware. Apple declares revenue of devices over a 24 month period so while I cash pay upfront their own tax reporting declares that I am paying for it during the period in which it receives updates.

Apple does not give 'free' updates. They charge you for all the services and updates upfront and then roll them out over time.

It's in their best interest to do this since it allows them more control over the secondary market, but it also means that they entered into a contract with me by selling me the device.

 

[dialogos]

You're paying for iOS updates? Hate to tell you this, but you're getting gypped by somebody. They're free directly from Apple. As for the rest of your comment, welcome to the real world. Contracts and agreements can be changed if all parties are notified and given a chance to accept the terms (unless the original contract had language that made exceptions for certain changes without notice or opportunity to agree to).

Nobody says that contracts and agreements can't change. We agree on that.

What we say is that Apple advertised something very specific for many years , which is called privacy , and now they are changing it. It is a change!. .Can we at least agree on that too?

And on a moral level, how can you even be ok with a company that changes the agreement just like that?