Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Also, thinking back to WWDC, I remember Cook saying no more tapping phones to share content.

My understanding of NFC is that it is an inductive coupling from the active phone sensor to a passive inductive tag, hence the "tapping" to confirm to the user that he/she is close enough to read the inductive tag.

At that point the phone would have to either make another wireless connection to do the transaction locally using WiFi or BT or there would have to be an app that would register a transaction based on the inductive tag via a cellular data link.

Downsides of NFC are that you have to be close, and it still may require another wireless connection to accomplish the transaction.

The downside of BT or WiFI are that these require an active wireless device on the other end. For iPhone to iPhone transactions, BT works well. But for purchases, the merchant would have to have an active device. Fortunately, BT4.0 is low power and a relatively inexpensive terminal might suffice, and Wifi is probably available at the point of purchase. It might be possible to skip NFC altogether.

The advantage of BT or WiFi is range, so transactions would not need to occur at a "terminal" at all.

Personally, I would wish the Apple work around the need for an NFC trigger.
 
That could indeed be an NFC antenna:
Image

Unfortunately it can't. It's not large enough. NFC is around 13 MHz, pretty low for the wireless communication world. It needs a longer antenna to provide the perfect match to prevent even more loss from what is a lossy interface. To make it work in that space, the line would be much much thinner and more tightly wound, again making it prohibitively lossy. That's why the patent talks about embedding it around the bezel and earpiece. Much more space to get the length optimal.
 
I can think of a couple of ways fingerprint scanners could be potentially problematic (aside from, of course, being a way the NSA can automatically get the fingerprints of anyone it doesn't have yet, which is problematic enough).

Bad possibility #1: It can be used to justify legal liability for all actions that take place on the device, since there would be incontrovertible proof that you activated the device (because no one else can).

Example: one could, for example, ask to borrow your device to look something up. They could then use your device to look up something illegal / controversial / etc., and because we all know that everything done on your device is tracked/monitored, you're now automatically put on some watch list because data mining software linked those searches with whatever behavior the government at that time deems inappropriate.

When you are hauled into the secret court (since indictments under recent legislation can be confidential), you will not be able to claim that someone snooped / cracked your password, because there is proof that it was you that activated the device prior to that, and your guilt for the infraction you didn't even know took place is assured.

Bad possibility #2: Criminals who want to steal your devices now have incentive to abduct you, hold you hostage (even if only for a few moments at gunpoint, which obviously increases your danger), because they will need to force you to disable fingerprint protection on your device. In short, it will reduce device theft, but increase the potential danger in situations where determined criminals want your devices. From the point of view of your personal safety, it's better your device is just snatched, as opposed to you having to interact for a longer period of time with the attacker, which leads to possibility of escalation of tensions.

I can't imagine someone abducting you for an iPhone… It's really not work the risk for a few hundred dollars… Far more likely to have you fingers cut off though. But with iOS7 you can remotely lock your iPhone with find my iPhone (like you can now) however to unlock it you need the apple ID. So thief of iPhones seems like a lot more effort - as a thief you may as well go after a similar priced smart phone.
 
I can't imagine someone abducting you for an iPhone… It's really not work the risk for a few hundred dollars… Far more likely to have you fingers cut off though. But with iOS7 you can remotely lock your iPhone with find my iPhone (like you can now) however to unlock it you need the apple ID. So thief of iPhones seems like a lot more effort - as a thief you may as well go after a similar priced smart phone.

Yeah. Most phone thefts are grab and runs in the middle of a public place. Thieves even prefer to do this with purses, that have direct access to cash and cards. Abduction or holding at gun point is for secluded areas and night scenarios. If you want to have a phone that doesn't have finger print scanning or NFC so you can cruise dark alleys at night, more power to you I guess.
 
why would apple file for a patent so late, only 3 days before revealing the product, i think they'd use this technology in iphone 6.
 
God I hope it's a combo NFC device, because NFC is all over the place pretty much everywhere except the US. I've been saying now for months, I live in Japan, and if NFC is included in an iPhone, it's over. This combined with the news that Docomo recently decided to give in and allow the iPhone on their network here in Japan, is great news. While I am an American, I am amazed by the ignorance expressed by other Americans on this website. Many seem to think that the planet revolves a round the USA and that's all that matters just because Apple is based in California. Wake up you chumps. Apple is and needs to be as much focused on the international market as it is the USA. You're not the center anymore.
 
NFC combined with the fingerprint scanner would be a huge development. But I'm going to guess NFC is still not in the 5S, Apple is just getting the fingerprint scanning down before they integrate it in the next model (iPhone 6). At this point, NFC use really won't be mainstream until Apple adopts it, Apple knows this so they are taking their time with it. They can't wait too long though.

NFC won't be a mainstream payment option until Apple AND A major payment processor adopts it, and adjusts all it's PoS systems... that's a cost.

Personally, I see this as a protection patent (just in case NFC does wing.).

Apple however, could say... 'for the price of an iPad and a good internet connection, We'll provide you a new Point of Sale system.' What's that - $1000-2000[carrier or hardwire internet], and $500 per PoS device after that?

I really think Apple is looking at a different technology, one that is internet based, and is a 3 way 'all AuthN/Z's meet at Apple' protected:

- You order your half-caf Latte'
- you select 'ApplePay (whatever) at PoS device (touch, or Barista presses for you... Assume it's an iPad/iPhone...
- PoS device - tells device who you are (in an Apple ITMS signed identifier)
- iOS 'paying' device' - receives that, you select payment type and you supply a 'press home key to confirm'
- gets fingerprint from the press
- uses the fingerprint to authN to device; Device/AppleID/and timesensitive token created, sends the PoS device and your 'ticket request' to Apple (including amount to pay)
- Apple gets that, sends a okay to pay (if all is cool) back to iOS device
- Apple can check to see if the iDevice is listed as 'lost' or 'stolen'
- can see if the device looks to be compromised (the location of the device is consistent with recent locations, was 'logged in' using same fingerprint, etc etc.)
- can see if the AppleID isn't under fraud review for any reason.​
- device says 'cool, thanks' sends the 'token' that is encrypted in an embedded key (1 time pay/timelimited, amount limited)
- PoS device receives this, resends request to apple to approve token
- Apple says, all looks cool, approves Xaction, start debiting PoS owner out of payers AppleID account.​
- payment done. receipt sent to iOS device via notifications.
... and you get your latte'.


If Apple hasn't given up the 'keys to the kingdom' to "No Such Agency," this is pretty secure... a lot more secure than std CC transactions, and more secure than NFC current iteration.
- You've Authed all parties (again, if Apple hasn't exposed ECC or it's encryption keys)
- Apple has huge 'awareness' of where the device is, and who has handled it.
- You've created a 3 way 1 time transaction (no credit cards numbers were sent, time limited, controlled by device and Apple [PoS system can't replay the transaction])
- PoS device has 3rd party confirmation the device holder is approved to spend using the device at time of sale (big deal for retailers).
- Spending Auth is sent to the payer first, to avoid the 'you not approved on this payment type' sent to the PoS (allows for building a multi-payment [gift card, multi-credit cards] at your end).​

Most importantly, Apple now is a payment processor, can charge 3-30% of the transaction value. If apple can show a business that that $2000 investment can return over $5000 a year in net revenue (lower fraud, faster transaction processing, less worker effort), it's a slam dunk sale.

And... Apple now is potentially getting a little piece of every retail transaction everywhere there is a working cell tower. Big Box, Small shop, a bicycle pulled icecream cooler... you got LTE/3G, probably even 2G.. you can sell stuff.

The best of Square, the best of NFC, the best of chip/pin, the best of PKI.
 
finger scanner to unlock the phone ? because it always get bypass :eek: and apple dont know how to secure it so they want to use fingerprint scanner.. i believe some other phone had a fingerprint thing already but no one liked it/really took off.. now that apple is doing this its going to be like a new cool thing :rolleyes:

NFC? i thought apple said "no more bumping phones"
 
Ironically, biometrics are probably your best defense from intrusion. The government can have your password/passcode in 5 minutes just by calling Apple/Google/Verizon/AT&T/etc, but biometrics requires that they physically obtain your device in order to get into it. Furthermore, biometrics aren't used for anything that can be exploited presently. A thief can't just email your bank a copy of your thumbprint and clear out your account...no institution would ever accept anything other than you being physically present to enter your print. I often wonder if the people warning us about the perils of the fingerprint scanner actually believe what they say, or merely want the rest of us to believe it. Fact of the matter is, even if the government could figure out a way to "use" your prints it would mean that they wouldn't even need to bother as they would probably already have all the info about you that they wanted.

----------



LOL. Good point. Hell, if the government really wants your fingerprint and if you've ever touched a doorknob...guess what?

Exactly, I mean how many Macrumors users have top secret info that the Government is looking to get? Unless you plan on doing some unimaginable crime then I think most of you all are stretching. As I type on this MBP I know that I am not truly secure. Its always been that way and if you think otherwise then you are really naive...:rolleyes:
 
i personally would have preferred a wireless charging than an NFC. then again, wireless charging tech is still a long way to go... :(

... Why? NFC gives the iPhone all sorts of new possibilities, namely replacing your entire wallet. With a fingerprint scanner for authorization, it would be far more secure than your current credit card which needs just your signature (which is total BS - nobody checks it. Trust me, I worked as a cashier, and the exact words I was told was "Always approve credit cards. If it's stolen, it's the owner's problem and the bank's problem, not ours.")

Wireless charging gains you nothing except a lame magic trick. "look, instead of plugging it in, I have to put it on a special pad to charge it!"
 
Apple Patent Application for Combination Fingerprint Scanner and NFC Circuitr...

Bad possibility #2: Criminals who want to steal your devices now have incentive to abduct you, hold you hostage (even if only for a few moments at gunpoint, which obviously increases your danger), because they will need to force you to disable fingerprint protection on your device. In short, it will reduce device theft, but increase the potential danger in situations where determined criminals want your devices. From the point of view of your personal safety, it's better your device is just snatched, as opposed to you having to interact for a longer period of time with the attacker, which leads to possibility of escalation of tensions.
Or, worse, they take your phone and then lop off a finger or two ;-/

On a more serious note, though, I wonder how reliable the sensor would be. I've been working in the garden today and looking at my fingers the tips are pretty rough and cracked right now. Would the scanner still be able to read OK if you don't have office-soft pinkies all the time?
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately it can't. It's not large enough. NFC is around 13 MHz, pretty low for the wireless communication world. It needs a longer antenna to provide the perfect match to prevent even more loss from what is a lossy interface. To make it work in that space, the line would be much much thinner and more tightly wound, again making it prohibitively lossy. That's why the patent talks about embedding it around the bezel and earpiece. Much more space to get the length optimal.

But Samsung's NFC chips are similar size to this (4mm X 4mm X 1mm) I could be wrong though as I'm not fully aware of them just what I've heard from the internet.

Maybe they could have a pin touching the back cover of the iPhone like the 3G antenna?
 
why would apple file for a patent so late, only 3 days before revealing the product, i think they'd use this technology in iphone 6.

The article states that the patent was originally filled in March 2012. It's only now being made public. Companies can specify that their patent applications are kept secret for a period of time so they can quietly build the idea into their products. This is common practice for Apple.
 

Not just used for sharing content though is it...

Payment in shops and public transport, could be used for loyalty points like in the UK for Subway/Nandos etc.

----------

Unfortunately it can't. It's not large enough. NFC is around 13 MHz, pretty low for the wireless communication world. It needs a longer antenna to provide the perfect match to prevent even more loss from what is a lossy interface. To make it work in that space, the line would be much much thinner and more tightly wound, again making it prohibitively lossy. That's why the patent talks about embedding it around the bezel and earpiece. Much more space to get the length optimal.

Like using a separate pin from the NFC chip/home button to the back cover for enhanced signal or potentially on the front panel/screen surround.
 
It would be nice if the ring would also glow when waiting for a readout, or serve as a notification light.

BTl1wKnCIAEuFuv.png
 
NFC is only used in small pilots outside the USA and indeed will not get any traction without a focused and reliable hardware party behind it. A few android phones that will not make a dent in the global scale of things will not drive that adoption. Apple could indeed do it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Dedicated apps for payment are very successful and do not require costly hardware.

In Hong Kong the Octopus Card contactless payment/transport NFC system is hugely successful, with over 12 million transactions per day (HKD$130 million) from everything from buying coffee, burgers, supermarket shopping and every mode of public transport in Hong Kong since 1997.

Hardly a small pilot project.
 
Is this new? I mean my wife's atrix did this 3 years ago.

I had that phone as well and the fingerprint scanner wasn't that great. I think apple will do it better because theirs is located in the home button while the atrix's was on the back. after a while you forget it's there but with apples its always on the front of the device.
 
But Samsung's NFC chips are similar size to this (4mm X 4mm X 1mm) I could be wrong though as I'm not fully aware of them just what I've heard from the internet.

Maybe they could have a pin touching the back cover of the iPhone like the 3G antenna?

I'd like to see that. I've seen tags that are 25mmx25mm which is quite a bit larger.
 
Last edited:
It would be nice if the ring would also glow when waiting for a readout, or serve as a notification light.

Image

From my understanding of this patent, I don't think the silver ring will light up, the entire circle/home button/fingerprint scanner/LED array( inside the silver ring) will/could be a notification light/display/haptic area.

"Apple further notes that the Home button may include optical structures and transmitters. The transmitters could be infrared or visible light sources such as light-emitting diodes or lasers. Receivers may be, for example, infrared or visible light receivers such as photodiodes or phototransistors."

Interestingly, Apple filed for a patent last year,(http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...ce-virtual-keyboards-replace-home-button.html) that replaced the home button with a haptic surface.

"Beyond virtual keyboards, Apple is looking to the traditional iDevice home button as another example of where their new haptics could apply. Today's physical iDevice home button may become a thing of the past. Apple describes the home button being designed as a virtual button with haptics behind it to make it feel like it's still a physical button to the touch. This would make iDevice surfaces completely flat and esthetically superior."

Perhaps the fingerprint home button could end up being alot MORE than we think it is.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.