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sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Sounds great but I still wonder how many weeks (months?) we are away from it finally launching in Germany. It seems negotiations with banks are terrible slow...

My guess is that the banks (especially the large ones) are holding Apple as a hostage. Apple wants to start with a big bank here. They learned their lesson in Switzerland, where only „niche banks“ offer Apple Pay and it is a bust.

The banks (especially the large one with local card systems) want similiar deals like in Canada. But the letter of intents are already signed, with a final contract signing expected in the near future (maybe before Christmas), I could see a start in mid-January as the PSD2 rules are in full effect.
 
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sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Brief update:

With the iOS 11.2.5 beta cycle in full swing, one could assume that Apple might launch Apple Pay in new countries after final release (not before CW3).

Based on information from my source, the german and dutch Apple Pay Engine received a "bigger version" bump within the last beta than usual. It is unclear at this point, what the changes are. It is pretty rare, that there are updates on an already enabled engine.
 

Menopause

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2011
662
1,806
Brief update:

With the iOS 11.2.5 beta cycle in full swing, one could assume that Apple might launch Apple Pay in new countries after final release (not before CW3).

Based on information from my source, the german and dutch Apple Pay Engine received a "bigger version" bump within the last beta than usual. It is unclear at this point, what the changes are. It is pretty rare, that there are updates on an already enabled engine.

Thanks for the continuous updates. If you don't mind, may I ask what are the kind of sources you have? Of course I don't want you to name them, I just want to have an idea about their level.
 

sir-hd

macrumors 6502a
Jun 20, 2017
828
854
Bucks, UK
From what I read (attention: no sources) I believe Apple Pay has to be on the cards for the first half of 2018. I do hope it's sooner rather than later.

The two largest German banks for private customers (Volksbanken & the Sparkassen) have launched or are in the process of launching mobile wallet apps to pay with debit and credit cards on Android. I can't imagine they'll leave all the Apple users behind. Photos surfaced of DKB Bank presentation slides with the Apple Watch as a payment option. NFC terminals are cropping up everywhere now. Most supermarkets have NFC cash machines now. The tokenisation (which Apple Pay relies on) is apparently nearly completely implemented for Visa and MasterCard accounts with most banks... sounds like once agreements are reached it's basically only a switch that needs to be turned on and I can start paying for my shopping with my watch... hopefully!
 

wSchabby

macrumors regular
Jan 5, 2018
126
121
My guess is that the banks (especially the large ones) are holding Apple as a hostage. Apple wants to start with a big bank here. They learned their lesson in Switzerland, where only „niche banks“ offer Apple Pay and it is a bust.

The banks (especially the large one with local card systems) want similiar deals like in Canada. But the letter of intents are already signed, with a final contract signing expected in the near future (maybe before Christmas), I could see a start in mid-January as the PSD2 rules are in full effect.

Any updates about the progress of signing the final contracts with the german banks?
 

sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Any updates about the progress of signing the final contracts with the german banks?

I have not heard anything since December. My guess would be that only a small number of people involved (within those banks) know what the current situation within the respective banks is. I can confirm, that three banks already have signed the final contracts with Apple. Unfortunately I‘m not allowed the name the banks as I granted my sources anonymity.

Based on my sources I know, that Apple wants to implement the Girocard (german variant of the debit card) system to have the biggest customer circle possible. Apple wants to be engine for MobilePayment. This will not work without the support of the Girocard as it is the most used card used for payment.

From what I read (attention: no sources) I believe Apple Pay has to be on the cards for the first half of 2018. I do hope it's sooner rather than later.

The two largest German banks for private customers (Volksbanken & the Sparkassen) have launched or are in the process of launching mobile wallet apps to pay with debit and credit cards on Android. I can't imagine they'll leave all the Apple users behind. Photos surfaced of DKB Bank presentation slides with the Apple Watch as a payment option. NFC terminals are cropping up everywhere now. Most supermarkets have NFC cash machines now. The tokenisation (which Apple Pay relies on) is apparently nearly completely implemented for Visa and MasterCard accounts with most banks... sounds like once agreements are reached it's basically only a switch that needs to be turned on and I can start paying for my shopping with my watch... hopefully!

Europe had an important date on Janaury 13th - the PSD2 rules took affect. From that day, the banks lost the control of the data and it moved over to each customer. This change is so huge, that it s more lucrative to wait. Another point here is the change regarding the fees. From now on each transaction - whether it is cash or card payment - there are no fees (at least within the EU).
 
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MLVC

macrumors 6502a
Apr 30, 2015
994
2,112
Maastricht, The Netherlands
I have not heard anything since December. My guess would be that only a small number of people involved (within those banks) know what the current situation within the respective banks is. I can confirm, that three banks already have signed the final contracts with Apple. Unfortunately I‘m not allowed the name the banks as I granted my sources anonymity.

Based on my sources I know, that Apple wants to implement the Girocard (german variant of the debit card) system to have the biggest customer circle possible. Apple wants to be engine for MobilePayment. This will not work without the support of the Girocard as it is the most used card used for payment.

Does the same apply for the Netherlands? Latest rumours point to a release with (very large) ING and (small) Bunq.
 

sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Does the same apply for the Netherlands? Latest rumours point to a release with (very large) ING and (small) Bunq.

I have no idea what it means for the Netherlands.The difference between Germany and the Netherlands is the number of different financial institutes.

For example, the German Sparkasse has over 40 million customers with Girocards getting more and more spreading around. So if you have potentially access to all those cards alone, you having a cash cow.
 
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MLVC

macrumors 6502a
Apr 30, 2015
994
2,112
Maastricht, The Netherlands
I have no idea what it means for the Netherlands.The difference between Germany and the Netherlands is the number of different financial institutes.

For example, the German Sparkasse has over 40 million customers with Girocards getting more and more spreading around. So if you have potentially access to all those cards alone, you having a cash cow.

There are no ‘girocards’ anymore in the Netherlands. Cards from all banks are the same (Maestro, like Italy). It’s not a credit card nation.
 

PR1985

macrumors 6502a
Jun 16, 2016
892
241
Germany
I have no idea what it means for the Netherlands.The difference between Germany and the Netherlands is the number of different financial institutes.

For example, the German Sparkasse has over 40 million customers with Girocards getting more and more spreading around. So if you have potentially access to all those cards alone, you having a cash cow.
Thanks!:)
 

sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
So here some infos - mainly Apple Pay Cash related:

Apple Pay Cash hasn‘t from been coming to Europe so far, because Apple isn‘t allowed to charge fees - neither on credit nor on debit cards - because of the PSD2 rules. Apple nor any banking may not charge extra fees for transactions to the virtual Apple Pay Cash Card.

Apple Pay Germany seems to be „in the final stages“ of development. The girocards are now able to use the ELV system as well as the international used Vpay/Maestro system. My source confirmed me that Apple Pay can be launched „any day“ now. There are also first rumors for Austria popping up...
 

cmaus

macrumors regular
Jun 27, 2008
105
112
Germany
So here some infos - mainly Apple Pay Cash related:

Apple Pay Cash hasn‘t from been coming to Europe so far, because Apple isn‘t allowed to charge fees - neither on credit nor on debit cards - because of the PSD2 rules. Apple nor any banking may not charge extra fees for transactions to the virtual Apple Pay Cash Card.

Apple Pay Germany seems to be „in the final stages“ of development. The girocards are now able to use the ELV system as well as the international used Vpay/Maestro system. My source confirmed me that Apple Pay can be launched „any day“ now. There are also first rumors for Austria popping up...
Nice!
Your profile shows you’re in Canada.
You’re not German, are you?
Or do you have some kind of relation to Germany?
I can’t wait for Apple to roll it out finally.
What I don’t understand is why Apple is making bigger or smaller announcements for future Apple Pay rollouts (like for China, Italy, Spain...), and for others, we get to know about the rollout the day it happens.
 

JepGambardella

macrumors newbie
Jan 16, 2018
23
30
The Netherlands
So here some infos - mainly Apple Pay Cash related:

Apple Pay Cash hasn‘t from been coming to Europe so far, because Apple isn‘t allowed to charge fees - neither on credit nor on debit cards - because of the PSD2 rules. Apple nor any banking may not charge extra fees for transactions to the virtual Apple Pay Cash Card.

I don’t get what you are saying. If the PSD2 rules are preventing Apple to release Apple Pay Cash within the EU, is that a problem then? The same rules apply on the Apple Pay “way of paying”. The amount of the fee that is normally charged, is also regulated now.
 

cmaus

macrumors regular
Jun 27, 2008
105
112
Germany
So here some infos - mainly Apple Pay Cash related:

Apple Pay Cash hasn‘t from been coming to Europe so far, because Apple isn‘t allowed to charge fees - neither on credit nor on debit cards - because of the PSD2 rules. Apple nor any banking may not charge extra fees for transactions to the virtual Apple Pay Cash Card.

Apple Pay Germany seems to be „in the final stages“ of development. The girocards are now able to use the ELV system as well as the international used Vpay/Maestro system. My source confirmed me that Apple Pay can be launched „any day“ now. There are also first rumors for Austria popping up...

Will it launch this week still?
 

steindlmedia

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2014
73
33
I don’t get what you are saying. If the PSD2 rules are preventing Apple to release Apple Pay Cash within the EU, is that a problem then? The same rules apply on the Apple Pay “way of paying”. The amount of the fee that is normally charged, is also regulated now.

PSD2 forbids merchants to add a surcharge for common payment methods like debit or credit cards.

Example: If you pay with Apple Pay online on an airline website, the airline (merchant) may not add a surcharge for the payment process.

If you top up the Apple Pay Cash card, Apple is the merchant. Therefore Apple is also not allowed to add a surcharge.
 
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sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I don’t get what you are saying. If the PSD2 rules are preventing Apple to release Apple Pay Cash within the EU, is that a problem then? The same rules apply on the Apple Pay “way of paying”. The amount of the fee that is normally charged, is also regulated now.

As @steindlmedia pointed out, neither Apple nor the issuing bank of the Apple Pay Cash Card is allowed to surcharge any credit card payment by common debit and credit card (Visa and MasterCard). Guess why the Apple Pay Cash by Greendot is issued by Discover. The problem here is, that card issuers like AmEx (even though they are allowed to surcharge) recommend merchants to drop the surcharge in Europe as well. The market regulates itself.

Nice!
Your profile shows you’re in Canada.
You’re not German, are you?
Or do you have some kind of relation to Germany?
I can’t wait for Apple to roll it out finally.
What I don’t understand is why Apple is making bigger or smaller announcements for future Apple Pay rollouts (like for China, Italy, Spain...), and for others, we get to know about the rollout the day it happens.

I was involved in the development of implementing Mobile Payment for agerman Bank. We handed over the system to our customer last November. And so I have access to sources within the development. And no -before you ask - I will not release the name as I have to protect my source...


Update: Mmh, in iOS 11.2.5 has clear identifier for Sparkassen girocards and credit. That would explain the major version bump for Germany...
 
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cmaus

macrumors regular
Jun 27, 2008
105
112
Germany
As @steindlmedia pointed out, neither Apple nor the issuing bank of the Apple Pay Cash Card is allowed to surcharge any credit card payment by common debit and credit card (Visa and MasterCard). Guess why the Apple Pay Cash by Greendot is issued by Discover. The problem here is, that card issuers like AmEx (even though they are allowed to surcharge) recommend merchants to drop the surcharge in Europe as well. The market regulates itself.



I was involved in the development of implementing Mobile Payment for agerman Bank. We handed over the system to our customer last November. And so I have access to sources within the development. And no -before you ask - I will not release the name as I have to protect my source...


Update: Mmh, in iOS 11.2.5 has clear identifier for Sparkassen girocards and credit. That would explain the major version bump for Germany...

Of course, I am not asking you to reveal your sources!
I have seen someone from VISA who had a DKB card as Apple Pay card on his phone.
But what interests me is: Where can those identifiers for Apple Pay cards be found in the iOS software?
 
Last edited:
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sunny2k1

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2013
420
396
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Of course, I am not asking you to reveal your sources!
I have seen someone from VISA who had a DKB card as Apple Pay card on his phone.
But what interests me is: Where can those identifiers for Apple Pay cards be found in the iOS software?

The identifiers are „open“ those you have access to special iOS version for banks not leaked to public.
 
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PR1985

macrumors 6502a
Jun 16, 2016
892
241
Germany
As @steindlmedia pointed out, neither Apple nor the issuing bank of the Apple Pay Cash Card is allowed to surcharge any credit card payment by common debit and credit card (Visa and MasterCard). Guess why the Apple Pay Cash by Greendot is issued by Discover. The problem here is, that card issuers like AmEx (even though they are allowed to surcharge) recommend merchants to drop the surcharge in Europe as well. The market regulates itself.



I was involved in the development of implementing Mobile Payment for agerman Bank. We handed over the system to our customer last November. And so I have access to sources within the development. And no -before you ask - I will not release the name as I have to protect my source...


Update: Mmh, in iOS 11.2.5 has clear identifier for Sparkassen girocards and credit. That would explain the major version bump for Germany...
Sparkasse? Yes!
 
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