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The question of whether or not the iPad is, or is not, classed as a "PC" is largely one of semantics, and as such is increasingly irrelevant.

Companies, contrary to popular opinion, don't succeed or fail based on measures of Marketshare. They actually win or lose depending on how much money they make. And by that measure Apple is a very heavy hitter. Apple makes more profit for each Mac they sell than HP does selling seven PCs.

I know that many people have a strange aversion to profitable companies. I don't. While I like getting a "good deal" as much as the next person, I'm increasingly wary of technology companies who promise to give you the moon for nothing and make it up in volume. Such strategies are, I believe, ultimately either unsustainable, or carry with them such hidden costs in terms of loss of privacy (see Facebook) or outright theft (see Google) as to be both morally and commercially inviable.

Apple's product are, I believe, fairly and understandably priced. This has been their model with every product dating back to the first iPod and their first offerings on the iTunes store.
 
So, a Palm PDA is personal and a computer, is a Palm a "PC"?

You could program a PalmPilot in Basic, just like the original IBM PC. Unlike the embedded computer in a wristwatch, a user could choose from thousands of apps (both games such as Adventure and productivity apps such as spreadsheets) to install and run on a PalmPilot. It ran many apps faster than the original IBM PC. It was also affordable enough for a typical consumer, businessman or student to buy.

Computer. Personally programmable. Personal choice from a variety of apps. Personally affordable. Light enough to carry out of the store without a forklift.

Sounds like a personal computer.
 
(any device incapable of typing a proper ≠ sign) ≠ a computer. ;)
Guess that leaves out Windows.
Or should we also count POS kiosks with touch screens as PCs because they happen to run modified Windows, DOS or OS/2 versions also ?
Actually, pretty sure those would be counted in "worldwide PC sales" according to analysts, Microsoft, Dell, whomever. Except maybe for the iPad kiosks.
Why does a replacement have to go faster? Are netbooks not computers because they aren't as fast as regular computers?
I'd like to make a case this is so.
I didn't say Tablet PC, but tablet PC, as in "PC", not PC.
Brain explodes.
 
Actually, pretty sure those would be counted in "worldwide PC sales" according to analysts, Microsoft, Dell, whomever. Except maybe for the iPad kiosks.

Pretty sure I haven't seen IBM on these rankings for quite a while :

http://www-03.ibm.com/products/retail/products/

I'm not talking about standard PCs here but true Point-of-Sale kiosk terminals.

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Guess that leaves out Windows.

Can't find that character in the EBCDIC table either... Oh well, I guess Mainframes aren't computers. :rolleyes:
 
So lets see, apple is the number one PC maker if you include sales of things that are NOT PCs,

i reckon Kellogs should be the number one PC maker then, if we include Rice Krispies.

stupid non-news-news. :mad:
 
So lets see, apple is the number one PC maker if you include sales of things that are NOT PCs,

Apparently the market is beginning to think they are.

Quite a change in perception, and for some (around here, especially) that is proving to be quite unsettling.

i reckon Kellogs should be the number one PC maker then, if we include Rice Krispies.

stupid non-news-news. :mad:

Fear and confusion. The old rules don't apply anymore.

Adrift on a sea of change.

The key is not to fight it.
 
Knight do you feel that the iPad should be counted as a PC for sells figure? Why or why not?

I personally feel it does not belong belong in the sales. It is way to limited in what it can do and far from even coming close to replacing it. I see it more as a great tool but far from a PC. Tablet market and PC market are as far separated as Pedal power bikes and Engine power bikes (motorcycles) It like saying that a pedal power bike is a motorcycle because it has 2 wheels and moves people.
 
I didn't say Tablet PC, but tablet PC, as in "PC", not PC.

You're over-thinking it.

What might make it easier is to not try to understand it based on your *current* understanding, perceptions, prejudices. Drop the labels. They no longer serve to explain, but rather, to confuse and obfuscate.

Just accept the situation and see where it leads. There really is no need to question it, unless by not doing so your CPU will melt. Which it won't. ;)

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Knight do you feel that the iPad should be counted as a PC for sells figure? Why or why not?

What I feel, what you feel, what Knight feels, is ultimately irrelevant. The rightness or wrongness of the situation has no bearing on what is happening going forward. It's fun mind-play, but ultimately inconsequential. It doesn't lead anywhere.

Some folks here are struggling too hard to understand. Perhaps a tacit acceptance of the situation is in order.
I personally feel it does not belong belong in the sales. It is way to limited in what it can do and far from even coming close to replacing it. I see it more as a great tool but far from a PC. Tablet market and PC market are as far separated as Pedal power bikes and Engine power bikes (motorcycles) It like saying that a pedal power bike is a motorcycle because it has 2 wheels and moves people.

You or I don't decide the direction of the market. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, same as everyone else.

Part of the problem is all these bicycle/motorbike/car analogies. They aren't helping and they don't apply.
 
So lets see, apple is the number one PC maker if you include sales of things that are NOT PCs,

i reckon Kellogs should be the number one PC maker then, if we include Rice Krispies.

First, iPads are personal computers.

Second, if more than 2% of the consumers who are thinking about buying a personal computer starting walking out of Best Buy carrying Rice Krispies instead of a desktop PC, the industry would start worrying BIG TIME about whatever they decide to call that market segment.

Fact is, far more than 2% of Dells customers don't use their personal computers for anything that isn't available from the iOS App store. And consumers are catching on, even if they don't know the technically correct name for what they are buying (billions of dollars worth).
 
First, iPads are personal computers.

Second, if more than 2% of the consumers who are thinking about buying a personal computer starting walking out of Best Buy carrying Rice Krispies instead of a desktop PC, the industry would start worrying BIG TIME about whatever they decide to call that market segment.

Fact is, far more than 2% of Dells customers don't use their personal computers for anything that isn't available from the iOS App store. And consumers are catching on, even if they don't know the technically correct name for what they are buying (billions of dollars worth).

Someone gets it, I see.
 
iPad's are computers, the same way that Mac's are PC's (those Mac vs. PC ads really grate my cheese).

1. An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

However, using that definition, Samsung is the world's largest "Computer" maker. I mean, Televisions, DVD players, Video cameras, non-smart phones, ECU's for car engines, are all computers.
 
I have an iMac 21, bought last year, and this year I bought an iPad 2. I've noticed that my wife and me tend to use the iPad rather than iMac.

I found pages and numbers easier to work on in iPad. iPad is also present n the living room, and integrates well with atv. iPad quicker hand reaching is too much argument to make us move our legs from the sofa to the office, regardless of the big and wide iMac screen.

The only way to get me back to iMac is doing Xcode development or when managing my iPhoto and iTunes libraries.

iMac has become a central station while iPad turned into my personal computer.

I will also grant my parents an iPad as gift for replacement of their old desktop. iPad is just enough for most of the use cases for people in mid ages or older.
 
1. An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

That's a computer. But that definition also applies to a big mainframe, a time-shared minicomputer, or tiny dedicated embedded computers (there are likely hundreds around the typical consumer).

To differentiate a personal computer from the above, a personal computer usually implies a bit more. It usually is also personally affordable, light enough for one person to carry out of the store, personally usable interactively, and potentially allows the user to select and install software for their most common computing tasks, and/or allows the user to write and run their own programs.

For many personal computers nowadays, the very last item requires downloading a Basic (or other language) interpreter or compiler, as that doesn't come built-in, as it often was on early personal computers.
 
Wow, this is actually bigger than a lot of people realize, I think, in terms of where it may lead.

It will reverse the minority share of the computer market that Apple always used to have.


Of course, people will debate wether or not the iPad should count as a true computer, but the reality is, for the average person who surfs the internet and uses email and needs basic document making capabilities, etc., the iPad completely fits the bill... and it's power and capability will only increase over time.

Now don't get me wrong, the iPad has a few (but very large) limitations, but for many people, that won't matter. People who are not power users. And especially "old" people who are often intimidated by normal computers. There will always be a market for a "real" computer for power users and heavy duty content creators and serious gamers, etc. but as the day to day computing appliance, tablets have already begun to dominate, and they've only been out for a couple of years! (Not counting those big clunk "tablet" laptops).

Anyway, I digress, my original point was that this is big, and it's because it will increase Apple's general marketshare of computing devices, which will bring more people into Apple "ecosystem". It's a powerful gateway device.

Uhmm... no.

Windows has 90% of the world market. Apple... 7? +50% of surveyed people would prefer a windows tablet for a apple tablet. 95% of unsurveyed (i.e. me guessing) enterprises will prefer windows tablets to apple tablets. 95% of unsurveyed developers (i.e. more guessing) prefer developing for MSFT. So... no.

That said, Apple will keep raking money in for at least a few years to come. Well done on their behalf i must say. They deserve it. But no, they will remain niche (15% overall market in 2016 or so, a lot more of the profit share). In part by their own choice.

Of course, i could be wrong. But i doubt it. Then again, i wouldnt be that said if i turned out being wrong :- )

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The question of whether or not the iPad is, or is not, classed as a "PC" is largely one of semantics, and as such is increasingly irrelevant.

Companies, contrary to popular opinion, don't succeed or fail based on measures of Marketshare. They actually win or lose depending on how much money they make. And by that measure Apple is a very heavy hitter. Apple makes more profit for each Mac they sell than HP does selling seven PCs.

I know that many people have a strange aversion to profitable companies. I don't. While I like getting a "good deal" as much as the next person, I'm increasingly wary of technology companies who promise to give you the moon for nothing and make it up in volume. Such strategies are, I believe, ultimately either unsustainable, or carry with them such hidden costs in terms of loss of privacy (see Facebook) or outright theft (see Google) as to be both morally and commercially inviable.

Apple's product are, I believe, fairly and understandably priced. This has been their model with every product dating back to the first iPod and their first offerings on the iTunes store.

How much profit does microsoft make on those 7 HP pcs compared to Apple? Any figure... out of curiosity. And before people start ranting about apples and pears - so is in fact comparing HP to Apple.

----------

You're over-thinking it.

What might make it easier is to not try to understand it based on your *current* understanding, perceptions, prejudices. Drop the labels. They no longer serve to explain, but rather, to confuse and obfuscate.

Just accept the situation and see where it leads. There really is no need to question it, unless by not doing so your CPU will melt. Which it won't. ;)

----------



What I feel, what you feel, what Knight feels, is ultimately irrelevant. The rightness or wrongness of the situation has no bearing on what is happening going forward. It's fun mind-play, but ultimately inconsequential. It doesn't lead anywhere.

Some folks here are struggling too hard to understand. Perhaps a tacit acceptance of the situation is in order.


You or I don't decide the direction of the market. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, same as everyone else.

Part of the problem is all these bicycle/motorbike/car analogies. They aren't helping and they don't apply.

Oh the inconsistency. You're arguing for dropping the labels, yet you want to include your beloved ipad in a specific label. Which way are we going to have it, dear sir? Are there labels or not? Are they useful or not? If not, why not compare ipad sales to grape sales? After all, labels suck - right? On the contrary, labels are what makes the world go around - or knowledge, really. No labels, no knowledge. Simple as that.

Sure, include the ipad all you want. End effect: We need a new measure that does not include it. If the figure is relevant, its relevant. Apparently, for many, it is. Simple as that.

(And yes, if for some reason it stops being relevant in the future - it'll stop being relevant. But we are - obviously - not there just yet.)

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First, iPads are personal computers.

Second, if more than 2% of the consumers who are thinking about buying a personal computer starting walking out of Best Buy carrying Rice Krispies instead of a desktop PC, the industry would start worrying BIG TIME about whatever they decide to call that market segment.

Fact is, far more than 2% of Dells customers don't use their personal computers for anything that isn't available from the iOS App store. And consumers are catching on, even if they don't know the technically correct name for what they are buying (billions of dollars worth).

If i go into a car store, thinking about buying a SUV and come out with a town car. Does that mean a town car is a SUV? No. Your point?

X being able to replace Y does not imply that X equals Y. Doesnt matter if X is towncar and Y is SUV or X is ipad and Y is imac. A tomato will never become a cucumber. They're both vegetables though, and both quite tasty at that.

----------

iPad's are computers, the same way that Mac's are PC's (those Mac vs. PC ads really grate my cheese).

1. An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

However, using that definition, Samsung is the world's largest "Computer" maker. I mean, Televisions, DVD players, Video cameras, non-smart phones, ECU's for car engines, are all computers.

And thus, we can conclude, there is a discrepancy between the official definition of the term, and the interpreted, real-life, meaning of the same.

Is the ipad personal? Yes. Is the ipad a computer? Yes.

So?
 
Now the definition of what a PC is may change over time - but arguing for Apple being the biggest PC supplier "if tablets are included" is just a BS PR piece for the research firm to get headlines.

When will that definition change? Oh wait we are slap bang in the centre of that change.....

A PC is a personal device that people use to perform their day to day computing tasks. Those tasks change (the day to day tasks of someone in 2011 checking email, buying things online, etc, etc is very different from that of someone in 1984).

The tablet is just the latest evolution in what a personal computer is. In some years (however many that is) we will be debating the next transition. Presumably when the interface changes again.

The PC has undergone at least two major transitions. The first generation were text based, keyboard driven devices. Then came (with the Mac) the GUI, mouse driven devices. And now comes the multitouch driven devices.

Seeing where the "Personal Computer" is going next is very easy. You just have to foresee what the next interface and form factor will be. Will it be voice control? (I doubt it). Or something completely different. Billions await the company and people who figure this out. It has to be more intuitive, more natural and nicer to use. And be in a suitable form factor.
 
If i go into a car store, thinking about buying a SUV and come out with a town car. Does that mean a town car is a SUV?

Exactly.

An SUV is not a town car. But they are both motor vehicles that an individual can buy and drive with a regular (single-rear-axle auto) drivers license. I see them both in the local coffee shop parking lot.

An iPad is not a Windows Laptop. But they are both personal computers that an individual can buy without any special IT certification. I see them both in the local coffee shop, both being used for the same facebook farming, web browsing, or whatever.
 
link to that nonsense?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/21/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3

So tell me - what do you personally expect from the Super Comitee? :p

The hard reality is - either more taxes or less spending. No matter what it boils down to less money on the market for iPad purchases.

Just my 0.02$.

Actually the US is pretty lucky that European politics sucks and a nuclear plant in Japan blew up. Less talk about the desastrous national debt.

So tell me, do you read the news?
 
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