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Ever heard of never change a running system?
True not everything needs to be changed. The shape of the wheel isn’t being reinvented all the time either and still I see no comments about designers not being open minded enough.

LMAO!! That makes it stagnant, less efficient, and slowly going out of date.
I have. I’d have to call that reasoning a fallacy.
 
Well, if you don't want managing multiple stores, you don't have too. That is whole point isn't it, who is forcing you to have maintain multiple store?
That is the point, isn't it? If there are other stores there is a very strong likelihood that developers will not support all of them. It is not necessarily a matter of fees charged. Consider this: there are two stores - Apple's and some third-party. Both charge the same 30%. One (Apple's) requires review and enforces privacy. The other also charges 30% but also allows unlimited scanning and tracking API's. And worse, that other store also provides a rebate if you share all the alanytics with the store. Many devs will only support the other store.

These may not be apps that you or I would necessarily want to use, but many will. And the fact that the apps are only available on a single of several stores mandates you allow all stores on your phone to have access to all apps.
 
That is the point, isn't it? If there are other stores there is a very strong likelihood that developers will not support all of them. It is not necessarily a matter of fees charged. Consider this: there are two stores - Apple's and some third-party. Both charge the same 30%. One (Apple's) requires review and enforces privacy. The other also charges 30% but also allows unlimited scanning and tracking API's. And worse, that other store also provides a rebate if you share all the alanytics with the store. Many devs will only support the other store.

These may not be apps that you or I would necessarily want to use, but many will. And the fact that the apps are only available on a single of several stores mandates you allow all stores on your phone to have access to all apps.
And it seems what will go along with this type of arrangement is Apple will lose it's privacy focused "message", and instead be known as the company where your apps track your every movement.
 
So many here are assuming worst case and not really putting much thought in how, if required, would address this issue. Why are most here assuming they know the solution? Instead it is all doom and gloom from the “Apple will not change” crowd. Ask yourself; how could Apple make this work?
 
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So many here are assuming worst case and not really putting much thought in how, if required, would address this issue. Why are most here assuming they know the solution? Instead it is all doom and gloom from the “Apple will not change” crowd. Ask yourself; how could Apple make this work?

The way I see it - everything is interconnected, so it’s not really possible to change just one aspect of the App Store model and not have any repercussions anywhere else.

Here’s a summary of my thoughts on the matter.

Ultimately, I support the App Store because I view it as an equalising force that makes it possible for an independent developer to reach a billion Apple users. I think this is an important contribution by Apple that often goes under-appreciated by critics.

In this context, I cannot support Epic’s fight to have their own iOS App Store governed by Epic’s own guidelines and payment processing. I simply don’t see how this is a net positive for consumers and developers. Epic is not looking to empower users or developers. They simply want more power, which further evidenced by there not being any lawsuits launched against Sony (which has a stake in Epic) or Xbox.

I sympathise more with DHH (I can understand his consternation to Apple taking $300k of his $1 million of sales), but I also feel what he is pushing for is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Currently, the App Store gets its revenue from two sources - the $99/year developer fee, and a cut of app sales from developers. 30% for apps / IAPs, 15% for subscriptions after the first year. That Apple is willing to reduce the cut of developers earning below $1 million tells us that the majority of developers are earning way below this threshold. The bulk of this app revenue comes from a small number of bigger companies (like Epic).

I am willing to bet my last dollar that $100 per year per developer doesn’t even come close to covering the costs of running the App Store. Apple could maybe lower its cut to around 25% and still break even, but the reduction is so minimal that this is unlikely to appease anyone.

To play devil’s advocate - would critics here be supportive of a 20% App Store cut if internal documents showed that’s what is necessary for the App Store to break even?

Alternatively, Apple could choose to increase the annual developer fee, but that also has the consequence of driving away small time developers, many of whom don’t really earn Apple any money, but their apps add a ton of vibrancy and variety to the App Store scene.

There is always the option of Apple simply waiving everything and absorbing the costs of operating the App Store (essentially subsidising it with iphone revenue), but there is always the concern that without a profit motive, Apple will have less incentive to maintain and manage the App Store properly. Which would represent a net negative for us users.

At the same time, it’s not hard to see new video and game streaming apps becoming alternative app stores in themselves. For example, should a game sold on stadia or a movie sold on Disney+ entitle Apple to a cut of the earnings as well?

Given how App Store vitality and viability is important to Apple and its uses, I can understand (and support) Apple naturally being more cautious when dealing with said services. It’s probably better to be more strict upfront (then slowly loosen your reins once you have a better understanding of the ramifications) than adopt a laissese faire attitude (where it will be very hard to institute changes afterwards).

I think that at the end of the day, App Store critics are going about this all wrong. The more they want to burn down the current App Store model, the more reason Apple has to dig in their heels and fight back. I don’t agree that Apple has a monopoly in smartphones or mobile app distribution, and I don’t see this lawsuit going anywhere.

But we will see.
 
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The way I see it - everything is interconnected, so it’s not really possible to change just one aspect of the App Store model and not have any repercussions anywhere else.

Here’s a summary of my thoughts on the matter.

Ultimately, I support the App Store because I view it as an equalising force that makes it possible for an independent developer to reach a billion Apple users. I think this is an important contribution by Apple that often goes under-appreciated by critics.

In this context, I cannot support Epic’s fight to have their own iOS App Store governed by Epic’s own guidelines and payment processing. I simply don’t see how this is a net positive for consumers and developers. Epic is not looking to empower users or developers. They simply want more power, which further evidenced by there not being any lawsuits launched against Sony (which has a stake in Epic) or Xbox.

I sympathise more with DHH (I can understand his consternation to Apple taking $300k of his $1 million of sales), but I also feel what he is pushing for is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Currently, the App Store gets its revenue from two sources - the $99/year developer fee, and a cut of app sales from developers. 30% for apps / IAPs, 15% for subscriptions after the first year. That Apple is willing to reduce the cut of developers earning below $1 million tells us that the majority of developers are earning way below this threshold. The bulk of this app revenue comes from a small number of bigger companies (like Epic).

I am willing to bet my last dollar that $100 per year per developer doesn’t even come close to covering the costs of running the App Store. Apple could maybe lower its cut to around 25% and still break even, but the reduction is so minimal that this is unlikely to appease anyone.

To play devil’s advocate - would critics here be supportive of a 20% App Store cut if internal documents showed that’s what is necessary for the App Store to break even?

Alternatively, Apple could choose to increase the annual developer fee, but that also has the consequence of driving away small time developers, many of whom don’t really earn Apple any money, but their apps add a ton of vibrancy and variety to the App Store scene.

There is always the option of Apple simply waiving everything and absorbing the costs of operating the App Store (essentially subsidising it with iphone revenue), but there is always the concern that without a profit motive, Apple will have less incentive to maintain and manage the App Store properly. Which would represent a net negative for us users.

At the same time, it’s not hard to see new video and game streaming apps becoming alternative app stores in themselves. For example, should a game sold on stadia or a movie sold on Disney+ entitle Apple to a cut of the earnings as well?

Given how App Store vitality and viability is important to Apple and its uses, I can understand (and support) Apple naturally being more cautious when dealing with said services. It’s probably better to be more strict upfront (then slowly loosen your reins once you have a better understanding of the ramifications) than adopt a laissese faire attitude (where it will be very hard to institute changes afterwards).

I think that at the end of the day, App Store critics are going about this all wrong. The more they want to burn down the current App Store model, the more reason Apple has to dig in their heels and fight back. I don’t agree that Apple has a monopoly in smartphones or mobile app distribution, and I don’t see this lawsuit going anywhere.

But we will see.


So much wrong with this.

First of all 'makes it possible for an independent developer to reach a billion Apple users' is a false value. This would still be possible without the app store, in fact it would be easier for some services that are basically impossible because of Apples restrictive app store policies.

Secondly their restrictive policies around gaming and streaming services are very problematic as they can be used to hinder competition as Apple has their own gaming and streaming services.

Lastly the 'Apples costs to run the App Store' as an argument in favour of Apples current policies is almost funny. Their margins on the App Store are enormous.
 
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Point?

I just don’t see the necessity of it. We lived an easy life with one - and exactly one - App Store on any Apple device, as well as plenty other entertainment systems. Let’s not pretend walled garden ecosystems are new or that the consumer doesn’t know what they’re buying into.

Honestly - its kinda hard to follow people like you, for me.

i am an open minded guy like steve - and for me the discussion about the store should be fine - and my conclusion is as i stated. And i am pretty sure steve would have understood that - you might not - but as i said - that’s OK ...
 
Honestly - its kinda hard to follow people like you, for me.

i am an open minded guy like steve - and for me the discussion about the store should be fine - and my conclusion is as i stated. And i am pretty sure steve would have understood that - you might not - but as i said - that’s OK ...

You’re not referring to Steve Jobs, are you? The one “inventing” the Apple DNA and the idea of having as much control about your products and let nobody interfere with them, right. Must be some other Steve.
 
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So much wrong with this.

First of all 'makes it possible for an independent developer to reach a billion Apple users' is a false value. This would still be possible without the app store, in fact it would be easier for some services that are basically impossible because of Apples restrictive app store policies.
Apple has a right to run it's business the way it wants. If a developer believes the app store isn't a good fit they have other options. Whether the app store is good or bad for consumers, depends on what you believe.
Secondly their restrictive policies around gaming and streaming services are very problematic as they can be used to hinder competition as Apple has their own gaming and streaming services.
Incorrect. It's only a problem if Apple has special policies for it's own game and stream services. That is something Apple could noticed for, and not in a good way.
Lastly the 'Apples costs to run the App Store' as an argument in favour of Apples current policies is almost funny. Their margins on the App Store are enormous.
They deserve the margins. Do you believe you deserve your paycheck? Of course, it goes without saying that everyone would like to use other people's systems for free. I'd like to borrow money at 0%, or have my dealer loan me a car since I've bought a car from the previously. But that is not real life...Apple charges what it charges. Even if Apple charged zero, that 30% is not the impediment to making a developer suddenly successful in the app store.

Nor is the impediment "only one app store". The impediment is the competition...and multiple app stores aren't going to solve that problem.
 
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Apple has a right to run it's business the way it wants. If a developer believes the app store isn't a good fit they have other options. Whether the app store is good or bad for consumers, depends on what you believe.

Incorrect. It's only a problem if Apple has special policies for it's own game and stream services. That is something Apple could noticed for, and not in a good way.

They deserve the margins. Do you believe you deserve your paycheck? Of course, it goes without saying that everyone would like to use other people's systems for free. I'd like to borrow money at 0%, or have my dealer loan me a car since I've bought a car from the previously. But that is not real life...Apple charges what it charges. Even if Apple charged zero, that 30% is not the impediment to making a developer suddenly successful in the app store.

Nor is the impediment "only one app store". The impediment is the competition...and multiple app stores aren't going to solve that problem.

Yes i deserve my paycheck i just don't deserve 30% of somebody elses :)

And they do have special polices for their own services.
 
Yes i deserve my paycheck i just don't deserve 30% of somebody elses :)

And they do have special polices for their own services.
You like to cite things that have happened in the past, especially when the present and future are being discussed! ;)

So you are essentially arguing you don't deserve a bonus. :p Or if you are a sales person and the company you are selling for, gives you a car, pays your rent, phone bill, advertising, provides you office space and in return you agree to give them a stipend...the company doesn't deserve it?
 
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There isn't much of an excuse for Apples anticompetitive practices but this is a particularly poor effort.
The point is the past is the past. And frankly, I don't care if apple pushes it's own services, similar to Ford pushing Ford products. And I don't even know if it was a big deal, except as some internet talking point.
 
The point is the past is the past. And frankly, I don't care if apple pushes it's own services, similar to Ford pushing Ford products. And I don't even know if it was a big deal, except as some internet talking point.

If it wasn't a big deal why did they prohibit third party devs from doing it with their services?
 
It really isn't. It's your point.
Sadly many are trying to push this "claim" of security. It's all about $$$ and control of that $$$.

Apple can, set for example: all apps sold have to be licensed, reviewed, and certified by Apple before they can be loaded onto a device.
No, it isn't my point. It is the THE point. If you don't agree, that is fine.
 
If it wasn't a big deal why did they prohibit third party devs from doing it with their services?
Similar to Ford pushing it's own products. What is Apple doing today? Can one opt-in and opt-out of their advertising?

As far as an internet talking point goes, it's a good one to catch Apple on, but that's where it ends and has no relevance in this conversation.
 
Similar to Ford pushing it's own products. What is Apple doing today? Can one opt-in and opt-out of their advertising?

As far as an internet talking point goes, it's a good one to catch Apple on, but that's where it ends and has no relevance in this conversation.

Again, thats quite a poor attempt.

The real answer is to give Apple services an advantage over the competition.

1613335072410.png
 
Again, thats quite a poor attempt.

The real answer is to give Apple services an advantage over the competition.

View attachment 1730198
Apple has an advantage over the competition, because their products are better. But let's get this straight in 2019 they were according to you, anticompetitive, but in 2021 the playing field is leveled as everybody is playing by the same rules.

Personally, anybody who pays $9.99 for Apple Music over a free tier of Spotify is already proving my point about their products being better, and not being driven by anti-competitive behavior.

In 2021 I have no problem getting ads or push notifications for any product where I have opted-in.
 
Apple has an advantage over the competition, because their products are better. But let's get this straight in 2019 they were according to you, anticompetitive, but in 2021 the playing field is leveled as everybody is playing by the same rules.

Personally, anybody who pays $9.99 for Apple Music over a free tier of Spotify is already proving my point about their products being better, and not being driven by anti-competitive behavior.

Apple Music is not a better product than it's competition. The numbers back that up.
 
Oh, so wait. Apple is really competitive then and not anti-competitive. Can't have it both ways.

Sorry that is just nonsense.

Just because Apples product isn't very good and people prefer the competition doesn't mean the Apple aren't using anticompetitve practices to promote their product.
 
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Sorry that is just nonsense.

Just because Apples product isn't very good and people prefer the competition doesn't mean the Apple aren't using anticompetitve practices to promote their product.
What's nonsense is quoting some article from 2019 and then in 2021 stating as a general fact, apple is acting in an anti-competitive manner.

Additionally, how good apples products are is determined by the individual. You may believe Apples' products aren't very good and that's fine as it's your opinion...but I let my dollars do the talking.
 
What's nonsense is quoting some article from 2019 and then in 2021 stating as a general fact, apple is acting in an anti-competitive manner.

Additionally, how good apples products are is determined by the individual. You may believe Apples' products aren't very good and that's fine as it's your opinion...but I let my dollars do the talking.

"It didn't happen this week so it doesn't count' is not much of a mitigation is it?


The fact that the article is from February 2019 is absolutely relevant because a month before Spotify filed its complaint to the EU, the push notification thing was part of that complaint.
 
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