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Yes you’re right, two wrongs do not make a right. However the difference here is at least you have the right to speak out, your post is the perfect example here, as opposed to in China where even constructive criticism is ruthlessly stamped out
Sure about that? There are loads of examples of memory holes, people frozen out of conversations, and the murder of dissidents from decades before China even began its great leap. The West in general have an air tight propaganda wing that make you think what it wants you to think about it but which is anything but the truth.
 
I mean anything is a action but I think we can generally say that we are finally seeing a movement to pushback against general bullying attempts from China.
 
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China have laws that breaches a persons human rights. Apple say's it will abide by national law. Money means more to Apple than a persons human rights because if otherwise Apple would have pulled out of China long ago due to it's continued human rights abuses of it's citizens.
If the low bar is that any citizens rights are breached, that basically includes the world, because that type of thing exists in many places, unfortunately.
 
China should play by the same rules as anyone else. Companies need to put pressure back on Chinese Gov. to open-up and change.
 
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China should play by the same rules as anyone else. Companies need to put pressure back on Chinese Gov. to open-up and change.

Can't speak for other countries, but here in the United States companies meddling in the affairs of other governments in order to promote internal policy changes is illegal, and is the domain of the federal government and State Department.
 
Your biased towards Apple so your views and opinions do not count as far as i am concerned.
Well, in the same vein you have continued unfounded criticism toward Apple, so your views and opinions do not count as far as I am concerned. But this is perfectly okay, as this is a forum with many varied opinions with much grey area.

I hope people who criticize apple, walk the talk and do not buy products, or products that contain components that are made in China. Because that action separates the hyperbole from someone with real values.
 
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And B: As a German I don't agree on the Chinese laws but who am I to tell them what their laws should be? Don't you think they had enough colonialism over there dictating them their laws and treaties? How would you feel if I would tell you that you should ban polygamy in Utah because I think it is not ok? Or that you should legalize women naked tanning on the beaches in Florida because it is the right thing to do? Or you know what, the US should legalize prostitution, gambling and weed because over here in Europe it works just fine.

Europe are a major part of the world kowtowing to China. Grows a backbone.
 
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the problem I have is that we’re not effecting change inside China anyways

It is effecting.

People won’t ask for change when they get richer. When their bottom lines hit they will. It might not happen abruptly but it will gradually..
 
If the USA were a country which respected human rights then maybe Apple could criticize China's human rights record openly without sounding hypocritical.
The baseline for poverty in the USA is a free home (section 8), food stamps, free cell phone, and apartment with public transportation. Soup kitchens and food banks. **** bout human right bs in the USA.
 
Apple, who routinely censors iOS and MacOS App Store apps is speaking out on censorship??? Ah, hypocrisy. You have to love it. :D

Heck, Apple doesn't even want to pay their Apple Store employees screening time. They were worth $2 TRILLION until the recent stock drop. I can't emphasize that enough. It's funny how the richest people and companies in the world are such misers.

Frankly, I hope Epic eventually deals them a blow in court. A (formerly) $2 TRILLION company should not have that much power, IMO. Either break Apple up into pieces or force them to open their system to other stores. The direction the Mac is heading in particular is troubling. Anyone who thinks Apple will not eventually close the Mac app system to use their store only (unless forced to do otherwise) is kidding themselves, IMO. If Windows 10 wasn't such a flipping disaster waiting to happen every update, I think I'd be migrating already due to the CPU changes (along with the already awful 32-bit cleansing that killed most Mac games from the past 15 years).

And what of the Mac Pro? Who is going to buy one knowing it's OBSOLETE already (since Apple is abandoning the CPU and platform it runs on). Apple. like Taco Bell seems intent on destroying all the progress it's made for "efficiency" reasons. I hope Taco Bell goes out of business. Everything they made I could stand to eat there is gone or will be in a little over two months time and Apple is going to have a hard time convincing me their OS alone is worth changing to a platform that is going to make the Mac like it was in the Power Mac days, supported by like 10% of the software makers at most (they made real strides with Intel inside in getting most of the major non-game apps ported to it; at least any of the ones I'd ever use along with most of the shareware type stuff and even a surprising amount of games; enough to keep me away from another Windows computer and getting only a PS4 for any other games). And yes, Play Station and XBox are fine for many games, but some games are best played on computers even so, IMO. Maybe it's time to give Linux another look (with the ability to boot into Windows 10 just for games). I suppose I'll keep my Mac Mini 2012 around for as long as it's usable. I was about to buy a new one or an iMac, but the CPU change announcement killed that dead. There's no point in buying something already announced to be obsolete. I know from the PowerMac that Apple won't support the Intel models very long after they're no longer sold (like 1 OS version at most).

I suppose I'll have to keep an AppleTV around for a long time seeing how many movies and TV shows I have through it now.
 
It’s a complex situation. Some would like Apple to exit China, but can’t explain how that would help Chinese, Taiwanese or Hong Kong citizens.
If enough companies left, it would force the Chinese government to reform some of its methods, and perhaps become a place those companies could return to, a place much better for its citizens. Voting with your wallet works well, always has.
 
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Apple needs to address US's 50,000/yr gun crime deaths and the 180,000 deaths from COVID-19, one that's still climbing. Both due to inaction and human rights breaches by the govt.
 
Again, no country is perfect. But you’re talking about two examples here. Two wrongs do not make a right. But you can not deny there is a HUGE difference to the kind of information control the CCP does vs what happens in the west. I’ve lived in China for over 7 years and the information control is just getting worse and worse.

Just because two countries both committed problematic human right abuses does not mean the scale is the same. It’s not black and white, as in good vs evil. It’s all relative, and the CCP is on the wrong end of the scale here.

Proof of example: Why don’t you try going to China and start posting criticism on WeChat and Weibo and see how fast you’ll be picked up by police and interrogated if not deported.
The thing is, the vast majority of Chinese citizens like their government. They’re ok with the restrictions.

Have they just fallen for propaganda and been brainwashed? Maybe/probably?
 
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If enough companies left, it would force the Chinese government to reform some of its methods, and perhaps become a place those companies could return to, a place much better for its citizens. Voting with your wallet works well, always has.
Maybe. Or the government will spin it into China vs. the world and World War III is brought from my current prediction of the 2040s into the 2020s or 2030s.
 
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Apple needs to address US's 50,000/yr gun crime deaths and the 180,000 deaths from COVID-19, one that's still climbing. Both due to inaction and human rights breaches by the govt.
When did this become Apple's issue? Apple has already done it's fair share over the last few months as cited in MacRumors' news feeds.
 
Yeah but still somewhat different if you‘re posing as the ultimate corporate human rights poster child uploading ad after ad about how important privacy etc. were.
That’s a pedestal you’ve put them on, probably because you know nothing about other corporations positions on these issues.

And given that on a “privacy excellence” scale from 0 to 10, Apple provides users with maybe a 9.5 while Android is maybe a 0.001, is there any reason to think Apple will stop pushing the incredible advantage that gives them?
 
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Your biased towards Apple so your views and opinions do not count as far as i am concerned.
“You’re biased against Apple so your views and opinions do not count as far as I am concerned.”

Do you see how foolish, useless and unproductive those types of statements are?

If you get stomped by an argument and are left speechless, it’s usually just best not to speak.
 
They prefer general surveillance to drive-by shootings. Hard to fathom, but that's how it is.

Incidentally, they are also OK with going to the bottom with the Uyghur radical muslims problem, for the same reaosn Americans are OK with holing up radical muslims (some of which are in fact Uyghurs) in Guantanamo Bay. They tend to prefer that to terrorist attacks. Strange, but that's how it is.

And while Chinese students and others who spend some time in other countries studying or working tend to appreciate Western freedoms, they also realize they could never be implemented the same way at home. They also notice the discrimination that is prevalent everywhere, not at least towards Chinese.

Therefore most of them eventually return to China, because they are safer there, have better opportunities there, and prefer the culture there to that in other places. Not the least do they see that the future lies in China, and history in the US. Hard to understand, but that's how it is.

The thing is, the vast majority of Chinese citizens like their government. They’re ok with the restrictions.

Have they just fallen for propaganda and been brainwashed? Maybe/probably?
 
It is sad that China messed up a great opportunity to become a democratic nation on the world stage. When we opened are markets and pretty much gave them all our manufacturing, the United States hoped that this would lead them to a more democratic society. It just empowered the socialist communist party to even put more control over it's people and it's country. Now they are even a bigger military threat than they were 50 years ago. This is why placating counties never works, just like England did with Germany in WWII.

When you appease a crocodile. You're just the last thing it eats.

Giving another country virtually all your manufacturing is so stupid it has to be a deliberate act of sabotage.

Azrael.
 
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