Apple Pushes Back Against iPhone USB-C Regulations in India

[Ctrlos]

As is equating governments with people.

Name one major global tech product to come out of the EU since Nokia. And even that one was from a tiny country that is unlike most of the rest of EU. You’d think that in the last 30 years, a major powerhouse like Germany or France would be able to produce a global service or tech product that rivals anything made in the US ?

On the other hand you have Korea, Japan, China which do come up with some crazy good tech.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not a libertarian and strongly believe in common sense market regulation. But it does seem that there’s such thing as “too much and too slow”.

Since 1993:

- MP3 developed by the German Fraunhofer Institute
- Bluetooth developed by Ericsson
- ARM processor architecture developed in the UK. Thats underlying every A-Series and M-Series chip from Apple.
- MP4/H.264 Codec also made by Fraunhofer
- Raspberry Pi developed and still built in the UK
- Pretty much every genre-busting videogame has been built in the EU, from GTAV and Witcher 3 to Assassin's Creed and Horizon Zero Dawn.
- The 3GPP which developed and standardised every mobile communication standard from GSM to 5G
- Spotify
- The camera phone was pioneered by Ericsson
- European companies pioneered mass adoption of contactless payments whilst the USA was still signing cheques
- Citymapper
- Deepmind is based in the UK

 

[The_Gream]

Agreed on production issues, but Americans want and demand "Made in the USA", so why should it be any different for India? Is this a case of double-standard?

I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t demand “Made in USA”. I just want my stuff made by people who care about the product they are making and do the best they can everyday.

I would have no issue with India’s “Made in India” demands, if the product quality was there. The country gives the impression it wants what China has today, but can only preform at what China was 20-30 years ago. (IMO) There are steps to take to get what they want, they just skipped a bunch of the ones in between.

 

[fernelius]

No phone is maxing out USB-C right now (on power or data speeds). Let's imagine phones doing that first. Honestly, I find that hard to do (TB4 and 240W on a phone, and that's only todays max).

Regulators have already indicated they will work with standards bodies on new regulations as needed. That said, I expect USB-C to have the same or greater staying power as USB A. I think wireless will evolve more rapidly, but I don't expect a different physical port supplanting USB C for a very long time (even on the laptop front).

USB-C is a mess right now. You raise 240W charging and Thunderbolt 4/USB-4 speeds. It’s not an easy task to determine what cables support what (adding DP alt-mode). Users are going to continue to be rather frustrated with what they perceive is unreliable/defective cables in cases that were never designed to do what they expect. Product descriptions don’t do well at giving these detailed specifications, and cables they bought previously are rarely marked for what they expect. It’s conceivable the standard and industry could evolve to accommodate this, but it’s not making very good progress in this area. It continues to seem to splinter more options without helpful descriptions/designations.

We are moving to a greater reliance to wireless; however, spectrum and methods of multiplexing on that spectrum are limited.

Finally, I would not necessarily expect current standards will be sufficient considering history but also the capabilities developing for smart phones in general and processors specifically. Smart phones now carry raw processing power to meet the majority of users’ desktop/mobile needs. They may be used more and more for that purpose with external peripherals. This is maybe more true for tablets, but phones are entering that realm in phablets and foldables. AR and VR (and how knows what else to come) may also challenge our existing port throughputs (particularly when there is usually only one physical port for cost but also for device size).

Eventually, I expect we’ll be looking at another port, and having countries lock us in individually to specific ports will make that transition very difficult. I do not often see independent countries working their legislation in lock-step with one another. In a sense, this is demonstrated in the EU, but the EU nations have ceded some independence to the EU.

 

[AlexESP]

Defending companies over people is, as the young say it, pretty delulu.

So let me get it right: companies are not people (who created them? UFOs?) and the government is THE people. Crazy.

 

[AlexESP]

Another case of Apple getting too big for their boots. How Apple is still producing devices with lightning in 2023 is beyond me.

Lightning is less than 2 years older than USB-C, it’s smaller and more robust. I also get that USB-C allows faster USB interfaces and more capabilities in general, but how cannot you understand why someone would want to stay with lightning? I’ve talked to some friends with iPhones who don’t read MacRumors, and most of them are pissed off because Apple changed to USB-C! Isn’t that enough for you all to understand?

 

[AlexESP]

...at which point, Lightning was on the road to obsolescence, as it couldn't fully support USB 3, Thunderbolt or full-bandwidth DisplayPort, yet iPads and high-end iPhones were becoming sufficiently powerful to benefit from those things.
In 2015, Apple added USB 3 support to the iPad Pro, but it was limited by the fact that Lightning didn't have enough conductors so it was reliant on an active dongle (the USB-3 camera adapter). That would have been the sensible point to start the transition to USB-C.

The bizarre thing as that Apple decided to push USB-C as the One True Port for Macs - where it was a solution searching for a problem, because Macs had plenty of space for dedicated ports - as early as 2016, but not for mobile devices which actually needed a standard, small do-everything port.

Apple switched to USB-C on the Mac, which is a product where having a fast and versatile port matters to many users and changes are not so traumatic.

Apple kept lightning on the iPhone, where THE main thing people want from a port is that it works with the cables they already have, and with the accessories they already have. And where space (lightning is smaller) is way more important than in a laptop.

 

[Jay Tee]

The Indian regulation seems like a poorly-thought carbon copy of the EU law.

Still I can’t see what devices would be affected, in 2025 the Apple line-up will likely be (mid-summer) iPhone 16, 16 Pro, 15, 14, and type-C SE.

Apple should offer to split the difference: offer all Indian buyers of older phones a free USB-C to Lightning adapter. And offer to have them manufactured in India.

Michael Scott: “win-win-win”

The point being that India wants devices being built now to have USB-C. This isn't a case of selling old stock of items that have already been manufactured. Apple don't need to be producing products in mid-2025 that have lightning connectors.

I'm taking a shot in the dark here: India has offered to subsidise manufacturing, via some income-tax free scheme over a few years, for production of Apple stuff there.

In other words, Apple's tryning to get India to pay the Apple Tax for Lightning.

So while I'm a free market guy, and am therefore against any government intervention, I don't blame the Indian government for sticking their boot in Apple's business under the circumstances.

Again, this is only a guess.

 

[RickDEGH]

Another case of Apple getting too big for their boots. How Apple is still producing devices with lightning in 2023 is beyond me.

Coming from a country which probably still produces and sells Android phones with micro-usb connections.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Does India want to manufacture Apple products and generate jobs?

Apple isn’t about to eat supply chain parts for older phones. Every most recent phone 15 line and onward has USB-C and Apple purchased likely several hundred million interfaces in advance like they do for lightning at a one or two year lead amount.

 

[KPOM]

Right but if they'd have switched sooner, (they've were first in use on phones 8 years ago), they'd still be making those phones, albeit with USBC.

Apple was one of the first companies to put USB-C in a commercial device (the 12” MacBook in 2015). However, in 2012, they also promised that Lightning would be their port of choice on the iPhone for at least 10 years. Remember people were upset that they had to replace all their accessories using the 30-pin port.

 

[paradox00]

USB-C is a mess right now. You raise 240W charging and Thunderbolt 4/USB-4 speeds. It’s not an easy task to determine what cables support what (adding DP alt-mode). Users are going to continue to be rather frustrated with what they perceive is unreliable/defective cables in cases that were never designed to do what they expect. Product descriptions don’t do well at giving these detailed specifications, and cables they bought previously are rarely marked for what they expect. It’s conceivable the standard and industry could evolve to accommodate this, but it’s not making very good progress in this area. It continues to seem to splinter more options without helpful descriptions/designations.

We are moving to a greater reliance to wireless; however, spectrum and methods of multiplexing on that spectrum are limited.

Finally, I would not necessarily expect current standards will be sufficient considering history but also the capabilities developing for smart phones in general and processors specifically. Smart phones now carry raw processing power to meet the majority of users’ desktop/mobile needs. They may be used more and more for that purpose with external peripherals. This is maybe more true for tablets, but phones are entering that realm in phablets and foldables. AR and VR (and how knows what else to come) may also challenge our existing port throughputs (particularly when there is usually only one physical port for cost but also for device size).

Eventually, I expect we’ll be looking at another port, and having countries lock us in individually to specific ports will make that transition very difficult. I do not often see independent countries working their legislation in lock-step with one another. In a sense, this is demonstrated in the EU, but the EU nations have ceded some independence to the EU.

History includes USB A, which has existed from 1996 to the present. USB C is its successor. We're a decade into USB C and still in the transition stage. It's not going anywhere soon. The fact that cable capabilities are so confusing is a testament to the raw performance available with the port. The Bigscreen Beyond headset is pushing 5120 × 2560 at 90hz through a USB C port. Sure we can dream up some fantastical reality where we need a new port standard, but that reality won't come soon.

Another example is RJ45, aka ethernet, which has been around since the dawn of (internet) time. Some ports just have that kind of staying power. But even if they don't, government regulations aren't written in stone. They can and often are changed. If Apple didn't want to be regulated, they should have transitioned earlier. They have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[paradox00]

Coming from a country which probably still produces and sells Android phones with micro-usb connections.

Those are not permitted once this law goes into effect. The first sentence of the article makes that clear (emphasis mine):

"Apple has asked the Indian government to exempt existing iPhones from new rules that require smartphones sold in the country to have a USB-C charging port"

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Since 1993:

- MP3 developed by the German Fraunhofer Institute
- Bluetooth developed by Ericsson
- ARM processor architecture developed in the UK. Thats underlying every A-Series and M-Series chip from Apple.
- MP4/H.264 Codec also made by Fraunhofer
- Raspberry Pi developed and still built in the UK
- Pretty much every genre-busting videogame has been built in the EU, from GTAV and Witcher 3 to Assassin's Creed and Horizon Zero Dawn.
- The 3GPP which developed and standardised every mobile communication standard from GSM to 5G
- Spotify
- The camera phone was pioneered by Ericsson
- European companies pioneered mass adoption of contactless payments whilst the USA was still signing cheques
- Citymapper
- Deepmind is based in the UK

I don't think you understand my point.

I never said that Europe lacks innovation, creativity, talent, education or, for that matter, wealth. They have all of that, arguably more so than the US - after all, Europe has a bigger overall population and many great education centers.

Yet,where are the European Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Tesla, eBay, Amazon, Dell, HP, SpaceX, Facebook, Twitter, nVidia, ... ?

Note - practically all of these companies started basically from scratch, with minimal funding and grew into global giants in the last 30-40 years. Apple was literally started in a garage, Jobs sold his used VW bus and Wozniak sold his calculator to get some cash for the company. Michael Dell started his computer business out of his college dorm with $1,000 borrowed from his family. And this is hardly a comprehensive list.

Yet when you look at the European giants, all of them are either old companies with old histories, or the results of industry mergers and acquisitions and old money coming together. Siemens, Volkswagen, BAE, etc. I honestly can't think of one global tech corporation of a comparable scale that emerged from Europe in that timeframe, despite all the great minds and research and wealth. I mentioned Nokia earlier, but then read about it and it's also actually an old company. So, what exactly stops all that European talent and wealth from being able to start a company from scratch and grow it into a global powerhouse ? They used to be able to do that 70-100 years ago, when all these modern European giants were created, but somehow this hasn't been happening in the last 40 years. As I said, the UK had some of the best personal computers in the world back in the early 80s, and yet this never grew into anything global unlike, say, Dell or HP. What gives ?

 

[Ctrlos]

I don't think you understand my point.

I never said that Europe lacks innovation, creativity, talent, education or, for that matter, wealth. They have all of that, arguably more so than the US - after all, Europe has a bigger overall population and many great education centers.

Yet,where are the European Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Tesla, eBay, Amazon, Dell, HP, SpaceX, Facebook, Twitter, nVidia, ... ?

Note - practically all of these companies started basically from scratch, with minimal funding and grew into global giants in the last 30-40 years. Apple was literally started in a garage, Jobs sold his used VW bus and Wozniak sold his calculator to get some cash for the company. And this is hardly a comprehensive list.

Yet when you look at the European giants, all of them are either old companies with old histories, or the results of industry mergers and acquisitions and old money coming together. Siemens, Volkswagen, BAE, etc. I honestly can't think of one global tech corporation of a comparable scale that emerged from Europe in that timeframe, despite all the great minds and research and wealth. I mentioned Nokia earlier, but then read about it and it's also actually an old company. So, what exactly stops all that European talent and wealth from being able to start a company from scratch and grow it into a global powerhouse ? They used to be able to do that a hundred years ago, but somehow not any more. What gives ?

I think it's more of a quiet thing these days. Most of the big companies are automotive, semiconductor or service based. There are hundreds of innovative startups (Wired does an annual roundup) but nothing that is a household name.

It might also be that some things haven't made the leap across the pond. Deliveroo is the biggest takeaway app in the UK and AFAIK was actually the first to offer 'self employment' to riders in the world. But I'm also not aware any other country has it.

At the same time US household names like Instakart, Craigslist and Mint were nowhere to be found over here.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I think it's more of a quiet thing these days. Most of the big companies are automotive, semiconductor or service based. There are hundreds of innovative startups (Wired does an annual roundup) but nothing that is a household name.

It might also be that some things haven't made the leap across the pond. Deliveroo is the biggest takeaway app in the UK and AFAIK was actually the first to offer 'self employment' to riders in the world. But I'm also not aware any other country has it.

At the same time US household names like Instakart, Craigslist and Mint were nowhere to be found over here.

Here's the list of top 100 global technology companies by market capitalization. Let's look at the top 30.

Largest tech companies by market cap

List of the largest tech companies by market capitalization, all rankings are updated daily.

companiesmarketcap.com

## 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, all American
#8 Taiwanese
#9 American
#10 Chinese
#11 Korean
#12 American
#13 European
## 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 American
#19 Chinese
#20 European
#21 Chinese
##22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 American.

You would think that the EU (population 448 million, combined GDP about $19 trillion) should be performing rather closer to the US (population 325 million, GDP $23 trillion) ? 2 out of 30, in 13th and 20th places, is not what one would expect.

Again, I am not at all implying that the Americans are more talented or better educated. Europe is every bit as good, if not better, when it comes to talent and education, and is comparatively wealthy. Yet, here we are. If it's not the talent, or education, or wealth, what else could it be other than the political / business climate ?

If you look at the more "traditional" fields like heavy machinery, dominated by older corporations and older money, it's a very different picture, with European companies far better represented.

 

[5232152]

So let me get it right: companies are not people (who created them? UFOs?) and the government is THE people. Crazy.

Let me help you out:
Companies need to make profits regardless of who they have to throw under the bus (including but not limited to environment, poverty limits, paying off people in power and routing the money around the taxation system, and into the some suspicious island).
Governments consist of people chosen for their political duty every x amount of years. In Europe, that number is four.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

...

You know, people can have an opinion and look at the respective positions of both sides without supporting either side.

From the Indian gov't perspective, this seems - to me - like posturing more than anything. An average Indian can't afford an iPhone. So this is about sending a message to the wealthier, educated elites.

From Apple perspective, this should be a wake up call not to repeat the old mistake of relying on one large country with unpredictable leader that likes to project a strongman image to his followers.

From my personal perspective, yes, by any means, make Apple create all new models with USB-C port. No, don't force them to redesign old models if this means the future phone is getting more expensive to cover the cost (because they can't slap the cost of redoing phones for the Indian market on that market, for obvious reasons).

 

[5232152]

Does India want to manufacture Apple products and generate jobs?

Apple isn’t about to eat supply chain parts for older phones. Every most recent phone 15 line and onward has USB-C and Apple purchased likely several hundred million interfaces in advance like they do for lightning at a one or two year lead amount.

You're saying a country of more than a billion people should just do as some American company thinks? Yeah, no.

 

[iPay]

They *should* have pushed Lightning as an open standard as soon as they invented it.

That's what they did, sort of, for USB-C. They were quite active in the USB Implementers Forum on this topic. Then they falled asleep at the wheel, lulled by the gentle breeze of Lightning's More Financial Income.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

You're saying a country of more than a billion people should just do as some American company thinks? Yeah, no.

Most of that billion people live in unimaginable poverty.

Apple's revenue in 2030 was about 10% of India's entire GDP.

If the Indian government wants to provide better living for some of that billion people, they will at least listen and negotiate.

But your post is also a great example of why selecting India as a future main manufacturing hub for Apple products is probably a bad idea. They are currently high on nationalism and populism, and this is a red flag for any long-term commitments. Apple should distribute its manufacturing hubs, so the potential disruption in one country wouldn't take down the entire supply chain.

 

[iPay]

Most of that billion people live in unimaginable poverty.

Apple's revenue in 2030 was about 10% of India's entire GDP.

If the Indian government wants to provide better living for some of that billion people, they will at least listen and negotiate.

But your post is also a great example of why selecting India as a future main manufacturing hub for Apple products is probably a bad idea. They are currently high on nationalism and populism, and this is a red flag for any long-term commitments. Apple should distribute its manufacturing hubs, so the potential disruption in one country wouldn't take down the entire supply chain.

First and foremost, Apple has to second-source outside of China in view of predictable confrontation with the USA.
Then, Apple has a proven record of tax competition abuse: they crave low wages (albeit with qualified workers), low regulation and maximum tax exemption. Maybe that's how you become a trillionaire. Finally, populism is a growing force in many countries, isn't it?

 

[DownUnderDan]

Another case of governments getting too big for their boots.

A nation doesn't need your permission or political ideology to decide how it wishes to enforce consumer law. The fact you think it does, shows perhaps you need to check your own boot size.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

As is equating governments with people.

Name one major global tech product to come out of the EU since Nokia. And even that one was from a tiny country that is unlike most of the rest of EU. You’d think that in the last 30 years, a major powerhouse like Germany or France would be able to produce a global service or tech product that rivals anything made in the US ?

On the other hand you have Korea, Japan, China which do come up with some crazy good tech.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not a libertarian and strongly believe in common sense market regulation. But it does seem that there’s such thing as “too much and too slow”.

Oh dear...

Streaming music report sheds light on battle between Spotify, Amazon, Apple, and Google

Spotify reportedly controls 31 percent of the market.

www.theverge.com

Spotify handing Google, Apple and Amazon their backsides all at the same time.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

First and foremost, Apple has to second-source outside of China in view of predictable confrontation with the USA.
Then, Apple has a proven record of tax competition abuse: they crave low wages (albeit with qualified workers), low regulation and maximum tax exemption. Maybe that's how you become a trillionaire. Finally, populism is a growing force in many countries, isn't it?

Sure. And that's why they need to diversify and distribute their manufacturing. In the light of what is happening in China, it should be pretty obvious by now that 5 large plants in five different countries, each of which can quickly scale up production, is preferable to a mega-plant in any single country.

 

[AlexESP]

Let me help you out:
Companies need to make profits regardless of who they have to throw under the bus (including but not limited to environment, poverty limits, paying off people in power and routing the money around the taxation system, and into the some suspicious island).
Governments consist of people chosen for their political duty every x amount of years. In Europe, that number is four.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

Companies are made up of people. They make profits, just like any of us. Which is a great incentive, just like for any of us. If I want to be a customer of a company, I’m able to do so.

Governments are made of people. With a very indirect system (since you mentioned the EU), they’re elected. These people (who “represent” the majority) can really throw me under the bus, because I’m forced to be their customer. Good governments do that as less as possible.

Governments can apply rules on companies, but not the other way around.

Then the EU forces Apple to take a decision (USB-C) which is probably very unpopular for the majority of its users, and you pretend that I have to side with the EU just because “it’s fighting against a company”?

Of course I will defend a trillion dollar company that doesn’t harm anybody against an obscure body government that wants to impose their narrow vision of the world to everybody. Because I’m not fighting people/companies depending on whether they’re poorer or richer, I’m driven by fairness and justice.