Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?

Which lends me to believe that data only implementations will follow at a later date

Certainly if Intel envisions systems with more than one TBolt controller, data-only would be much simpler. (Note that the Imac has a single two-port controller, not dual controllers.)


For example, ASUS leads board makers with a 21.6M units for 2010 (source). Now if you divide 21.6M by 37 models, assuming the split is even, that comes to a tad over 580K units per model offered.

Now compare that with 2009 workstation data, that would put Apple's MP sales at ~76K (I showed this in another thread if you recall.

Two bits of info to upset your assumption. First, Asus has 37 for Sandy Bridge alone (LGA1155). They also currently have Socket 1366, Socket 1156, and Socket 775 for Intel, and AM3+, AM3, AM2+, AM2 and FM1 for AMD - as well as Atom and E-350/450 boards. Newegg has 128 Asus mobos in its current catalog.

So, divide the 21.6M by 128, and you're at 165K per board, assuming an even split. Much closer to Mac Pro range.

But, the "even split" assumption is absurd. Asus has a huge OEM business - you'll find Asus motherboards in HP, Dell, Gateway and other branded systems. So millions of those mobos may be different models from the 128. (And low-end integrated graphics models probably outsell the higher end boards by a huge margin.)

I won't go line-by-line for your other arguments, because I think that the assumptions behind them are flawed, and I've already made my case.


For example, if there's only 3 months between now and a new CPU/chipset model, and they released a TB unit now, they're likely to be stuck with a lot of unsold systems due to users waiting for the new CPU versions to become available (whether they buy the new model, or the TB only version at a discount).

Agreed, it's too late now.

However, we're talking about technologies (X5690, USB 3.0, SATA 6Gbps, TBolt, BD, ...) that have been around since last winter.

If Apple "can't afford" to update the Mac Pro, that doesn't bode well for the platform. If the bean counters and the quest for high profit margins are running the show, it's not encouraging.

The Mac Pro adds "luster" to the lineup, and it's hard to predict what the effects of losing that luster would be.
 
Last edited:
Certainly if Intel envisions systems with more than one TBolt controller, data-only would be much simpler. (Note that the Imac has a single two-port controller, not dual controllers.)

You know and I know that data-only makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately we're talking about Apple here, and I truly believe they're pigheaded enough to give themselves a difficult-to-attain goal of achieving full data/video on all Thunderbolt computers they ship.

Agreed, it's too late now.

However, we're talking about technologies (X5690, USB 3.0, SATA 6Gbps, TBolt, BD, ...) that have been around since last winter.

If Apple "can't afford" to update the Mac Pro, that doesn't bode well for the platform. If the bean counters and the quest for high profit margins are running the show, it's not encouraging.

If Apple weren't so pigheaded, they could have either revved the Pro to have Thunderbolt or released a data-only version of it on a PCIe card.

As it is, they've done such a good job selling Thunderbolt, that the lack of it now constitutes a drag on sales of computers that don't have it.

(And yes, I understand that the Pro has other arguably better expansion possibilities, but people want to be able to share peripherals between their desktop and laptop machines).
 
The Mac Pro has the latest Xeon cpus available from intel

Doesn't look like that's the case, there are 3.3 options for eight and twelve core (and for some 3.4) which Apple doesn't offer. Plus apple could lower prices or beef up the CPUs in the lower end models.


Why? Will your friends stop buying Apple even though they like it on the sole basis that a computer they don't need is no longer available?

Some of those people buy macs because they have a friend or relative using Mac Pro who either encouraged them to, or helps them with computers. If their hardcore "mac guy" goes away they might not get macs any more.
 
There are plenty of users who need MacPro and beyond to suitably fill their computing needs.

However there is a far larger group of people who are just fine with the power of a MacPro from a generation or two earlier which is more than satisfied by a current generation Mac-Mini or iMac, with suitable external attachments, and at a far lower cost.

At some point compatibility with end user applications is the only requirement for a piece of hardware and the lowly Mac-Mini is so much more powerful than its predecessors and even its own MacPro cousin a generation or two behind, it really is good enough for the vast majority of pro and semi-pro users.

As for the real MacPro, I for one would like to see Apple have CPU card add-ons as well as PCI slots and hard drive slots and memory slots.

As for the Mac-Mini I would like to see Apple offer a case stackable external device box as well as a bundle of 2-3 minis and the box, with a Grid computing solution configured out of the box, so one can get Pro+ performance with a stacked Mini solution.

Rocketman
 
Doesn't look like that's the case, there are 3.3 options for eight and twelve core (and for some 3.4) which Apple doesn't offer.

Yeah, but they are still the same architecture, Westmere, which is the latest Xeon CPUs from intel. But there is a 0.3 ghz bump available.
 
Yeah, but they are still the same architecture, Westmere, which is the latest Xeon CPUs from intel. But there is a 0.3 ghz bump available.

Whether they're the same architecture or not, and whether the faster chips are newer ("latest") or not, the point is that intel is offering higher end CPUs that Apple could use to update the product line. The fact that they are socket compatible is all the more reason that Apple should use them, although yet another update without things like SATA III and TB might annoy buyers more than it would help.
 
Whether they're the same architecture or not, and whether the faster chips are newer ("latest") or not, the point is that intel is offering higher end CPUs that Apple could use to update the product line. The fact that they are socket compatible is all the more reason that Apple should use them, although yet another update without things like SATA III and TB might annoy buyers more than it would help.

I was referring to CPU generation, not a minor frequency bump in the parent, to make that clear. I'm not interested in arguing with you. Yes they could add options for the frequency bump.
 
AidenShaw made a great point about at least upgrading the chips in the Mac Pro. (one of many great points in fact)

Having said that, am I the only one who imagines a cat typing at a keyboard.

I still stand by what I said earlier and this would be very un-Apple like though since this is the post Jobs era, I think the Mac Pro should be built by request.

Don't ship 10,000 units of x... have people request them who need them and let Apple build the customization as requested.

It probably wouldn't work and would be a horrible business idea, though I'm just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
 
Back in the day the main benefits to the MacPro were the expansion slots, dual processor, extra hard drives, and dual processors.

Now days with iMacs coming with quad cores, 16 GB of ram, and terrabytes of hard drive space, and thunderbolts ability to add external storage, and an expansion slot chassis; I think this is an obvious move. Add a duel processor option to the iMac and there you go. The only people this will hurt is the people that use Mac OSX Server as the MacPro and MacMini is the only server hardware they currently offer.

Unless Apple makes an iMac with an anti-glare screen I'm not buying. Plus, moving all the hard drives I have internally on my MacPro to externals would get cluttered (how un-Apple would that be?). Thunderbolt may be the way of the future, but I have a fibre channel connected to a relatively new RAID array as well as a AJA a/v card I'm not going to be able to fit into an iMac...
 
we're being persecuted

Having said that, am I the only one who imagines a cat typing at a keyboard.

peanut-on-kybd-009.gif

PawSense™ - catproof your computer

PawSense is a software utility that helps protect your computer from cats. It quickly detects and blocks cat typing, and also helps train your cat to stay off the computer keyboard.

PawSense constantly monitors keyboard activity. PawSense analyzes keypress timings and combinations to distinguish cat typing from human typing. PawSense normally recognizes a cat on the keyboard within one or two pawsteps.

http://www.bitboost.com/pawsense/
 
Hahahaha! That post made my day and I haven't even gone to work yet.

Moving back towards the topic, I was discussing this in the MR chat and the consensus was that there is probably at least one more run with the Mac Pro before the future looms further.

I do think though that one day we will not need huge machines to do tons of work though we are not that advanced yet. Intel is working at (what I feel is) an incredibly quick rate to set the line of processors for the future though it will take a while before things are really there.
 
I wish apple would just make a statement on all this. I can't imagine how it helps them to have a bunch of people just pissed off over this rumor.
 
I do think though that one day we will not need huge machines to do tons of work though we are not that advanced yet.

What we expect from computers, however, is increasing at least as quickly as the technology advances.

I thought that I was in heaven when I upgraded the 5MB (yes, MB) hard drive in my first PC to 10MB. (This at a time before 1MB floppies were available.)

Later, I was thrilled to upgrade my workstation from 4 MiB of RAM to 12 MiB. (I think that the 8 MiB upgrade was about $4000.)

Rinse, Repeat, Rinse, Repeat, Rinse, Repeat.... Same story with CPU power, network bandwidth. What seems like "infinite" at some point in time is a critical bottleneck a few years later.

The A5 in the Iphone 4S would have been classified as a weapon not too many years ago - yet Siri is handicapped by having to go to servers to process data because the A5 is inadequate.

History has shown that at any point in the computer timeline the average computer handled average tasks. There have always been people, however, whose main limit on productivity or quality was the fact that the fastest system, cluster or cloud was too slow or too small.

It looks quite possible that Apple will abandon those "crazy ones" - but that will be Apple's loss if it happens.
 
Two bits of info to upset your assumption. First, Asus has 37 for Sandy Bridge alone (LGA1155). They also currently have Socket 1366, Socket 1156, and Socket 775 for Intel, and AM3+, AM3, AM2+, AM2 and FM1 for AMD - as well as Atom and E-350/450 boards. Newegg has 128 Asus mobos in its current catalog.
I went by your figure at the time of that post. Going back and counting, I came up with 140 from ASUS's site (all boards, including those with CPU's soldered to the board).

I suspect your confusion is with the systems engineering aspects of board design.

Lets say you're working with a particular socket (socket count = 1), and have 3 chipsets available for that socket. It's possible to create a single PCB design that can handle all 3 combinations (and is intentional by the CPU vendor - think Reference Design for a CPU socket - where the different features are located in the chipset). Simple example, but this is the basis (i.e. chipsets for a socket share the same package = same pin-outs).

Now let's expand on this a bit.

Board vendor has the following design elements to chose from (some from CPU vendor Reference Designs, others they create on their own; BTW, values are arbitrary):
  • CPU sockets = 12
  • Chipsets = 30
  • Voltage regulators = 8
  • Peripheral chips (additional semiconductors to add features) = 15
By creating board designs via a mix-and-match methodology of these elements, they can produce a number of different boards over every socket they've chosen to sell, while sharing R&D for these various elements over multiple boards. Some can even be used in boards for competing CPU vendors, such as peripheral chips, and basic voltage regulator designs for other areas of the board, such as the PCIe slots which are standard regardless of CPU used.

The MP can't do much of this, as it's the only system of it's kind offered by Apple (i.e. share the same FW800 chip as say the iMac).

Hope this finally get the point across as how product lines and total volume matter vs. a single product in terms of reducing R&D cost per board.

But, the "even split" assumption is absurd. Asus has a huge OEM business - you'll find Asus motherboards in HP, Dell, Gateway and other branded systems. So millions of those mobos may be different models from the 128. (And low-end integrated graphics models probably outsell the higher end boards by a huge margin.)
I was just trying to keep it simple (KISS). ;) If the boards actual sales volume per P/N were equal, I'd be absolutely dumbfounded.

As per their profitability, they've taken that into consideration. For example, Yes, the cheaper boards may sell a higher volume. But they also generate less profit per board than the upper scale variants (when available). So they've set MSRP's that balance it out = each is profitable. They also have control of the production volumes (since they actually manufacture what they sell), so they're less likely to be stuck with excess volume, unlike system vendors that use OEM/ODM methodologies to get their products.

As per boards made for HP, Dell,..., I'm not sure if the 21.6M figure includes those or not, as they're actually sold through their Pegatron arm (technically, a separate company that's owned wholly by ASUS - it's their OEM/ODM division, just as Foxconn is the retail division/label of Hon Hai Precision).

However, we're talking about technologies (X5690, USB 3.0, SATA 6Gbps, TBolt, BD, ...) that have been around since last winter.
Yes, they've been available. But it wouldn't have been in Apple's best interest on multiple levels.
  1. They would likely be left with too much of the previous systems when the new ones arrived.
  2. Purchase contract volumes and delivery dates for CPU's were set before the newer CPU's were available (they don't buy as many electronic components as other vendors for their workstations - not just CPU's = affects purchase prices).
  3. New CPU's you're interested in are too expensive to keep the MSRP in line with Apple's idea of margins.
  4. R&D would increase per board due to reduced sales volume (has to do with time frames they can sell the new systems before the SB-E5's begin shipping to system vendors).
It all adds up to a bad business decision for Apple due to marketshare and timeframe of sales.
 
An interesting proposition, to be sure, and one that I've also proposed (such as suggesting that Apple should have announced a partnership with HP and VMware to support Apple OSX server in select models of ProLiants with ESX when the XServe was killed).

However, with the castration of Final Cut Pro and other anti-profressional moves - does it really make any sense to license OSX on third party hardware.

Why run Apple OSX just to run Premiere or Avid? It makes more sense to run the Windows versions of the apps on Win7 x64 than to try to run Apple OSX and run the OSX versions of the same apps.

If Apple isn't doing top notch pro apps, why bother running Apple OSX?

It remains to be seen if Final Cut Pro will regain its pro features in time and whether a Jobs-less Apple will continue down the consumer-only path it seemed to be starting to take. I use Logic Pro/Studio, not Final Cut Pro (I did use it for awhile for purely home-editing, but have since finished the project, currently looking to sell my editing equipment and have basically moved on) and so far don't see another product I'd rather use on another platform and given Logic Studio is currently OSX-only, that leaves me with OSX for now.

Besides, while Apple's commitment to professional software may be in doubt, we have seen 3rd party software (e.g. Autocad) add OSX versions in the past year or so. I personally prefer OSX to Windows (beyond gaming, at least) and so I would also like comparable hardware options to continue as well. I wouldn't mind a Thunderbolt expansion "dock" that adds a few slots to say a MBP, but not at the prices the 3rd party gear I've seen so far is suggesting (I might as well just buy a Hackintosh computer and have a 2nd computer just for home use).
 
Please elaborate why:
MacBook Air was not cut
iPod Classic was not cut
Mac Mini was not cut
Mac Pro was not cut

Obviously, I'm just stating a personal opinion so if you're looking to me for solid answers to these questions, I cannot give them.

However, with the exception of the Mac Pro, (the future of which we are discussing here), all the above models you mentioned have a much lower manufacturing cost and retail price so I would speculate that they sell in greater quantities and thus return a greater profit margin for the company.

It would seem logical to assume that for this reason Apple hasn't discontinued them.
 
Have Faith !

Have Faith & Believe in a New Mac Pro !!!

Even thou i will not be able to afford a new one ..........................................
After measuring all the different GOSSIP & Rumours about whether there will or will not be a new line up , i have a feeling that after all the waiting & anxiety going on that 'good things come to those who wait' & that behind the scenes Apple is pouring the perfect pint of Guiness !!!
 
Hope this finally get the point across as how product lines and total volume matter vs. a single product in terms of reducing R&D cost per board.

You're doing a bad job of it. You've just proved that Asus' job is even more complex than Aiden made out.

Remember that Apple is also in a partnership with Intel, and SJ made a big deal of the assistance they received in board design in the keynotes as they changed to x86. There's a lot of assistance they can leverage on these designs, and there really is very little out of the ordinary about the MacPro architecture.

Really, I think this whole argument that developing a new board is somehow a super-big deal is very much overstated.
 
Yes, they've been available. But it wouldn't have been in Apple's best interest on multiple levels.

Ultimately, wouldn't Apple's "best interest" be in catering to the "best interests" of Apple's customers?


- They would likely be left with too much of the previous systems when the new ones arrived.

Absurd - Apple's supply chain and inventory management is among the best in the business.

(And, I'm talking about an update that should have happened in February, not proposing one in December right before the next chips are available.)


Yes, they've been available. But it wouldn't have been in Apple's best interest on multiple levels.
  1. They would likely be left with too much of the previous systems when the new ones arrived.
  2. Purchase contract volumes and delivery dates for CPU's were set before the newer CPU's were available (they don't buy as many electronic components as other vendors for their workstations - not just CPU's = affects purchase prices).
  3. New CPU's you're interested in are too expensive to keep the MSRP in line with Apple's idea of margins.
  4. R&D would increase per board due to reduced sales volume (has to do with time frames they can sell the new systems before the SB-E5's begin shipping to system vendors).
It all adds up to a bad business decision for Apple due to marketshare and timeframe of sales.

One acronym - BTO.

Offer faster CPUs as BTO options....

Offer better graphics as BTO options....

Offer USB 3.0 and TBolt cards as BTO options.... (Although a minor board rev to integrate these would be better, supported BTO PCIe options would be much better than nothing.)

Instead, Apple's let the Mac Pro fall behind the competition and expectations.
 
Last edited:
You're doing a bad job of it. You've just proved that Asus' job is even more complex than Aiden made out.
There's more engineering involved due to the increased number of products sold, but that same engineering is applied to multiple products that sell more units (i.e. say the there's 3 products using the same exact PCB = same engineering). So that R&D expenditure is divided by more units as the sales volume of each P/N is added together, then divided by the R&D costs (separate P/N's don't mean 100% different from one another).

Given the size of ASUS (production volume), and other board makers, this concept is done on a much grander scale. Since they manufacture a lot more units, they can leverage systems engineering more effectively as a means of reducing R&D per board, given the number of units produced (engineering is shared between multiple products rather than each product being 100% different in terms of engineering used to create it from anything else the sell).

Remember that Apple is also in a partnership with Intel, and SJ made a big deal of the assistance they received in board design in the keynotes as they changed to x86. There's a lot of assistance they can leverage on these designs, and there really is very little out of the ordinary about the MacPro architecture.
Board makers and other system vendors are also in parternship with Intel (Development Partners).

In the case of Apple, Intel actually did their board work in the 2006 - 2008 models, and gave Apple additional discounts/shipping priority for specific CPUID's as boards generate higher margins than CPU's (think finished product vs. raw materials in terms of profitability).

As per the MP's architecture vs. other workstations, No there isn't really any difference, nor was I making this claim (might add an additional semiconductor, but the CPU/chipset aspect is the same). The reason is, they're all based on Intel's Reference Design for the respective CPU/chipset combination.

Where they differ from Apple however, has to do with total sales volume, and how they generate that volume by offering more than one product.

If Apple sold a lot more MP's, they'd be better able to handle mid-cycle board redesigns financially speaking (keep margins at acceptable levels). Unfortunately, as it's only a single model, nor do they have a large enough marketshare to make this possible (want growth to do this).

They're better able to do that with their other lines, such as the iPhone and other gadgets. Which is part of the reason those products have a faster update cycle (need the new models to continue to generate sales, and some are ARM based, so there's no dependency on Intel to contend with).

Even other workstation vendors are having a tough time due to changes in technology that are causing the workstation market to shrink (those that don't need DP systems or ECC switching to consumer based SP systems, such as LGA1366 i7's). Which is why ASUS uses boards for multiple users (i.e. P6T6 WS Revolution is for both gaming due to OC capabilities + SLI, as well as SP workstation users <since it can run Xeon's + ECC memory>). This makes good sense, as it increases the sales volume by creating a larger target audience for that particular product.
 
Ultimately, wouldn't Apple's "best interest" be in catering to the "best interests" of Apple's customers?
IF they think it's a significant enough part of their business, absolutely.

As it stands however, the MP is a small product in terms of it's contribution to the bottom line, and the growth is insufficient for them to continue with it long-term (at best, it's in the very low single digit category vs. rather high growth rates they're seeing in the smartphone and tablet markets for example). Which translates to a much better ROI in the consumer market, and why they're pursuing it so vehemently.

When products such as the MP reach this stage, they invest very little R&D money in it as a means of generating as much margin as possible until the sales volume reduces to the point they decided to kill it (predetermined sales volume at x MSRP).

Absurd - Apple's supply chain and inventory management is among the best in the business.
They're good at it because they don't do much in the way of mid-cycle refreshes as other vendors do. And it's a necessity with products such as the MP given its lower sales volume vs. other vendors.

(And, I'm talking about an update that should have happened in February, not proposing one in December right before the next chips are available.)

Offer USB 3.0 and TBolt cards as BTO options.... (Although a minor board rev to integrate these would be better, supported BTO PCIe options would be much better than nothing.
I realize this, but it comes down to ROI.

Given the MP's small sales volume, it wouldn't generate enough money for the effort. Seriously. 76K, and it's likely less than that now, isn't that much, which makes it hard to justify the financial aspects (76K seems like a lot to you, but it's not - electronics, even the premium priced ones, depend on high volume manufacturing to keep prices low). Otherwise, the component costs, manufacturing costs, R&D, indirect expenses, ... are too high per unit to be competitive at the target MSRP (takes a company's idea of margin into account).

So Apple prefers to leave such products up to 3rd party manufacturers when possible. Take USB 3.0 for example - there are 3rd party USB 3.0 cards for the MP now.

TB isn't available yet due to Intel's desire to keep the port as Data + DP video signal ATM. Hopefully this will change in time if the following two conditions are met:
  1. If Intel opens TB up to vendors with the explicit intent of Data Only solutions in the future.
  2. And only if at least one 3rd party vendor sees the MP market as sufficiently large enough to generate a sufficient sales volume for such a product (where it's profitable).
 
Maybe he just doesn't realize that PCB board design and layout is mostly automated this millennium. ;)
There's a lot more to proper circuit design than what's done in software packages such as those available from Synopsys, Cadence, or National Instruments, as they don't help with things like component selection (HDL models aren't real world).

But my point has nothing to do with the details of a proper circuit design process.

I'm talking about how you can put together sub-circuits that have already been completed (component selection through final prototype that passed RTM requirements) in a new product to reduce the number of man-hours needed to complete the rest of it. Even to the point half or more of the work is done, depending on how much completed work can be used (only need to validate the prototype/s to see if they meet spec if every single element used has been designed to the point of RTM before).

This sort of systems engineering can save both time and money, as the R&D of those sub-circuits can be divided by every board that uses them (sales volume of multiple products get added together = lower R&D cost per unit).

This shouldn't be that hard to understand, particularly in the odd case of Apple's MP, who doesn't have multiple products that can share the R&D anymore (was possible when they still had the XServe).
 
I went by your figure at the time of that post.

No, you went by your careless misinterpretation of my statement.

I said

Originally Posted by AidenShaw

Asus has eleven different Z68 boards, and 26 other models just for socket 1155.

While I didn't explicitly say it, and left it an exercise for the reader to realize that Z68 was socket 1155 (Sandy Bridge) - the "just for" phrase should have been a clear message that the number "37" was a subset of Asus' public product line.

While you are desperately trying to formulate a financial justification for Apple not even trying to stay current with the flagship Mac Pro - in the end, it's obvious that Apple just doesn't care about the "real pro" market. They can only get 38%¹ profit margin from "real pros", but "imaginary pros" will put up with 42%¹ profit margins on shiny toys.

¹ Profit margin numbers pulled from my butt for dramatic effect. ;)

If MBA Tim and the bean counters look at the profit margin on each SKU and don't back off and look at the overall line, its interconnections, and the "luster effect" - look at rebalancing your portfolio.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Back
Top