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Apple Ramping Up Production of 13" and 15" Next Gen MacBook Pros
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This whole ODD arguement is getting pretty ridiculous. I think the problem is each group (ODD supporters and ODD removal supporters) are talking about different Pro user populations when it comes to who uses the ODD and who doesn't.
For those, like myself, who believe majority of people don't regularly use the ODD, we're talking about the general population of consumers, based on talking with friends and family members who also never/hardly ever use the ODD. Obviously that is a very small sample size so you can't definitively say that almost everyone doesn't use the ODD that much, but I feel like you definitely can't say majority of normal consumers regularly use the ODD either. Again, this is of the total consumer laptop population
For those who support the ODD, they are basing the proportion of people who they believe use the ODD on those who use it business purposes, which is probably/likely much higher than the more general consumer population. But that is assuming that the population of people who use the MBP is, for the majority, business oriented as opposed to a more equal mixture of business oriented and the average person who just want a high quality laptop.
Now with that established, it becomes an argument of whether the first group of the general consumer should even be using the Pro or if they should just have the Air since they don't need the ODD. I think that each person should be allowed to buy whichever on he/she wants and that it's pretty rude to be telling someone they shouldn't be buying the MBP because they aren't "Pro" enough despite the fact that the Pro name doesn't even mean its for Professionals. I personally think that if the Air got both a 15" version along with the ability to upgrade to 8GB of RAM across the board, it would be much more reasonable to SUGGEST to the average consumer that the Air would more fit his/her needs (I would buy this instead of the Pro for my needs). Then the proportion of people using the Pro who need the ODD would be much higher than it is now and therefore people who want the ODD to stay would be much more justified in saying many or even majority Pro users still use the ODD so Apple should keep it. But as it stands, right now, these options aren't available which means that many (though less with each passing year) average consumers will still purchase the MBP (if only for comforting knowledge of being able upgrade, even if they never do), not just people who use it for business. As a result, people will continue to disagree on whether the ODD should be kept in the PRO or not, with each person arguing for what is best for him/her.
Finally, though, regardless of how each person on this forum argues for or against the ODD, Apple has already made their decision and we will see it soon enough
EDIT: Oh and just another off topic idea but if Apple doesn't release the new MBP's in May, I guess it's safe to assume that it will be unveiled with ML at WWDC and consequently, we won't see the next iPhone til the fall because unveiling ML, iOS 6(?), the new MBP's and possibly Airs, and iPhone all at WWDC would never happen
For those, like myself, who believe majority of people don't regularly use the ODD, we're talking about the general population of consumers, based on talking with friends and family members who also never/hardly ever use the ODD. Obviously that is a very small sample size so you can't definitively say that almost everyone doesn't use the ODD that much, but I feel like you definitely can't say majority of normal consumers regularly use the ODD either. Again, this is of the total consumer laptop population
For those who support the ODD, they are basing the proportion of people who they believe use the ODD on those who use it business purposes, which is probably/likely much higher than the more general consumer population. But that is assuming that the population of people who use the MBP is, for the majority, business oriented as opposed to a more equal mixture of business oriented and the average person who just want a high quality laptop.
Now with that established, it becomes an argument of whether the first group of the general consumer should even be using the Pro or if they should just have the Air since they don't need the ODD. I think that each person should be allowed to buy whichever on he/she wants and that it's pretty rude to be telling someone they shouldn't be buying the MBP because they aren't "Pro" enough despite the fact that the Pro name doesn't even mean its for Professionals. I personally think that if the Air got both a 15" version along with the ability to upgrade to 8GB of RAM across the board, it would be much more reasonable to SUGGEST to the average consumer that the Air would more fit his/her needs (I would buy this instead of the Pro for my needs). Then the proportion of people using the Pro who need the ODD would be much higher than it is now and therefore people who want the ODD to stay would be much more justified in saying many or even majority Pro users still use the ODD so Apple should keep it. But as it stands, right now, these options aren't available which means that many (though less with each passing year) average consumers will still purchase the MBP (if only for comforting knowledge of being able upgrade, even if they never do), not just people who use it for business. As a result, people will continue to disagree on whether the ODD should be kept in the PRO or not, with each person arguing for what is best for him/her.
Finally, though, regardless of how each person on this forum argues for or against the ODD, Apple has already made their decision and we will see it soon enough
EDIT: Oh and just another off topic idea but if Apple doesn't release the new MBP's in May, I guess it's safe to assume that it will be unveiled with ML at WWDC and consequently, we won't see the next iPhone til the fall because unveiling ML, iOS 6(?), the new MBP's and possibly Airs, and iPhone all at WWDC would never happen
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Whose turn it is for a custard pie in the face? Oh no, wait, we'll argue over that as well.
If having a disagreement makes you a clown, everyone is a clown.
I agree with everyone. Even with clowns. They are very amusing and I value laughter more than anything.
Konrad, You can take offense to the way in which I presented my post, clearly you have. The fact remains that you are the minority and not the majority. I don't have numbers nor do you, all I can go by is the people whom I speak with on a regular basis and from the overwhelming majority it is clear to me that those who still use/need an ODD are far and few between. Again, you may not like it but the fact is clear that the group in the pro-ODD group are a lot smaller than the opposite group.
Deal with it, or don't, it's up to you. Just don't be surprised when you can't buy a new Apple laptop with an ODD, that day is just around the corner whether you like it or not.
What is the big deal with using an external anyway? Geez, it's not like they are huge and if you are buying a "pro" laptop you could clearly sneak one in your bag.
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neilpryde23, nice post!
Deal with it, or don't, it's up to you. Just don't be surprised when you can't buy a new Apple laptop with an ODD, that day is just around the corner whether you like it or not.
What is the big deal with using an external anyway? Geez, it's not like they are huge and if you are buying a "pro" laptop you could clearly sneak one in your bag.
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neilpryde23, nice post!
This is basically trolling. Outside of these boards I'd be willing to bet that the I don't care group trumps the rest. The only time most of them are going to even consider it is if they randomly come across the need for it.
Mike, Mike, what fact remains? I am an engineer, thus facts are based on factual numbers and nothing can offend me..other than bad engineering. You make statements based on personal assumptions , thus whether or not they are correct as illustrating the factual statistics, they are irrational, and one should make all effort in order to maintain its own veracity never to refer to it's own dumb opinion: because "I believe it is that". I look at any device from an application perspective in real situations today and now, rather than wants, trends, upcoming fashions, and other ********, for the world to move on in order and without detrimental to the order - glitches. When a woman is 176cm at 52kg, the reasonable probability is that she wears a 36 size dress, her stockings are size 4 and she is a 36c.
My poor choice of words is duly noted. You may now reclaim the maturity that you hypocritically criticize me for lacking.
Slimmer = less weight = better for those who can't lift two extra pounds. Less power requirement = better. New processor = better. These are all things I'll agree with you on. However, here is where your argument completely falls apart: Slimmer != new processor (at least not anything remotely as powerful as the quad-core mobile Sandy Bridge CPUs in the current 15" and 17" MacBook Pros), less power requirement != said new processor. When you lose thickness, you lose power. Period. You cannot refute this without speaking in terms of things like the flight of pigs and unicorns.
He won't be the only one. I have used my imac's cd drive exactly once in the 9 months I have owned it - to install starcraft 2.
And honestly, you have no right to criticise him. You want a cd-drive, aren't you trying to make the earth revolve around you as well, by attempting to impose on us your wishes? What exactly makes your stance any more "right" than ours?
This is the Internet, I have every right to criticize anyone for any reason. That being said, I'm not pushing for optical disc drives to be on every Mac there is. The Mac mini no longer has one, and frankly, I couldn't care less. The MacBook Air never had one, and neither do all of the other ultrabooks on the market; the point of such a machine is bare minimalist portability. I don't and never again will own an iMac, so I could care less about what Apple does to it. I'm not imposing anything upon anyone, I'm merely stating that as someone who will have a MacBook Pro as his only Mac (which is more common than most would think, and is no less common than the MacBook Air+iMac combination), for them to remove the internal drive from this machine would greatly inconvenience me. I'm not saying that I want them to change it to be anything that it isn't already; on the contrary, I find this feature just as useful as others find features like the SD Card slot, the Ethernet Port, the FireWire 800 port, the audio in port and other things that make it a standalone machine complete with any feature I could possibly want on a portable Mac. And really, I only criticize the anti-ODD argument as EVERY single one of them boils down to an illogical hatred of the component; removing it does nothing practical. If you use the cavity to make the machine thinner, you make the machine weaker because you have less thickness and thusly less vertical room for heat dissipation. Apple could use it to increase the size of the battery, but (a) that's not what they WOULD do and (b) who really needs more than 7 hours out of their laptop without charging? Apple can't give it better graphics as to get better graphics the machine needs to actually be much thicker than it is, ODD or not. Same thing goes for the CPU. I impose my opinions because they are based on these facts. I actually have legitimate reasons, justified by knowledge and experience for wanting the ODD to stay, whereas very few on here have legitimate reasons for wanting it gone other than wishing that a 15" MacBook Air existed.
Even then, as someone who also owns StarCraft II and has performed installation of it multiple times, it is infinitely faster to install it from disc. Installing it from the Internet takes forever unless you are performing the download and installation at some ungodly hour in the late night/early morning. For this reason, software packages like this are much more efficiently installed via optical disc versus download, making it STILL USEFUL! These are arguments and assertions that I've yet to hear a useful counter-argument for, save for the "you should buy an external optical drive" to which I counter with "that's inconvenient", and then the argument goes nowhere productive. I'm fine arguing opinions, but at least I can back mine up with valid reasons.
Posts like yours, that lack realistic insight as to how much physical space is required to even have a "powerful MBP", that demonstrate that you don't appreciate how thin the MacBook Pro already is compared to any other notebook in its class, that assume that with the lack of the optical drive is preventing a machine that is both significantly faster and thinner without realizing that the two are functionally contradictory, are holding back the evolution of reasonable dialogue on the rumors at hand. They need to be terminated.
THANK YOU!
You are my hero!
All these debates about optical disk drives... Time for a poll!
There already was one done on here and the results were that over 50% of people were ambivalent about the optical drive with half as many of the remainder wanting it gone while the other half want it to stay. The argument that people who want it to stay are in the minority is exactly as stupid as the argument that people who want it gone are in the majority, when the fact of the matter is that both are in as equal of a minority as each other. This is in line with the fact that the lower-end Macs, the MacBook Air and the Mac mini don't have it, while the higher-end Macs, are used more by people who demand such features. I'm sure a similar debate could be sparked about the FireWire 800 port or the Ethernet port which are just as responsible, if not more responsible, for the thickness of the machine, and really, unless minimalism is the goal, there's no practical reason to cut out any of it at this time.
Let me throw your question back to you. Can you show that the number of people who absolutely need a cd drive is in the overwhelming majority? Because apparently, it is okay for you to try and impose your beliefs and opinions on others, but lord forbid that others do the same.
Having polled people myself, my own data is in line with the poll previously executed in these forums, in which the number of people who absoloutely need the optical drive are more or less identical to the number of people who absolutely want it gone and both making up a minority of users; the vast majority are indifferent and ambivalent. No one is imposing anything, but to want something gone that others find both practical and useful and for no real practical reason is both annoying and borderline insulting. Please respect that.
It's page 10 of a MacRumors forum thread in which there wasn't much to discuss to begin with, what do you expect?
Really, when one says that they want a MacBook Pro with no optical drive, fewer ports, and a dramatically slimmer design, what you're left with is a MacBook Air. They say no, they want a MacBook Air with the speed and power of a MacBook Pro, when the fact of the matter is that you can't miniaturize the discrete GPUs found in the 15" and 17" MacBook Pros, and if you could, they would be dramatically less powerful. Similarly, you can't make the power provided by the current quad-core mobile CPUs in the current round of MacBook Pros come in a smaller package; hell, it's amazing that they're able to fit in the MacBook Pros with them retaining their current thickness as it stands. The counter-argument to that is "well if you took out the optical drive, you could make it thinner" and the fact of the matter is that the optical drive is neither thick nor heavy nor does it stand in the way of allowing anything such as a dramatic thinning of the laptop to happen (without a reduction in speed) as it needs to be as thick as it is at he minimum so that the heat can have vertical room to dissipate. As someone making the pro-ODD argument, I will happily listen to anyone making the anti-ODD argument if they factor these facts, but no one here making this argument does, so I have no qualms with flaming them at every turn for not factoring these facts, logic, and with them, the laws of physics.
Exactly why people need to lay off attacking the people posting new threads asking about the redesign. I know personally I rather post a new thread than having my particular question or concern be buried and ignored in some huge multi page thread full of stupid childish bickering! I know there is a fine line with ignoring the search feature and just wanting your question answered but people please give them a break it is a FORUM, it is not the end of the world for you!
This particular thread is not the appropriate place for questions unless they pertain to the specific rumor at hand. Given that every possible question pertinent to this rumor has been asked, we are now bickering about which side has more users, the pro-ODD camp or the anti-ODD camp (neverminding the fact that (a) both sides have the same amount of people in them and (b) the title of majority goes to neither and instead goes to the group of people who don't care one way or the other) as is typical of MacBook Pro rumors posts past page 7. This is how this forums site works. If you'd like to ask a question, there are much better places in these forums for you to do that. Similarly, if you'd like to ask me a question, I'm always happy to provide my advice and insight on private messages. But for now, this is how things like this work; I'm not saying that your complaint is unreasonable, I'm saying that your expectation that it be any other way is unfortunately unrealistic. While this site has rules against being offensive, using profanity, and talking about things that violate EULAs, it doesn't have rules against pointless arguments like this one, which will sadly run its course until either the optical drive departs Apple's Mac line-up completely, or until it becomes unarguably obvious that they'll leave it in for select machines as a specialty feature.
I was referring to people asking questions as new threads instead of in the ridiculous 46 page "2012 Macbook Pro Redesign" one
Fair enough, but don't you think that by page 10 most of the relevant questions were already answered? A lot of people just hate reading and like to re-ask questions and re-assert opinions that have already been asked and stated many times over before.
13.3" or 14.5" or 15.6"
which is cheaper to make? what happened the rumor apple preparing 14" mainly for asian market.
I would like 14"/14.5" MBP instead of 13.3" MBP. but not sure which is panel size is cheaper to make, I see HP using 14.5" in their Envy series. if anyone has knowledge about the panel size/resolution/cost please enlighten.
13.3"/11" just fine for MBA.
interesting times for the MBP.
which is cheaper to make? what happened the rumor apple preparing 14" mainly for asian market.
I would like 14"/14.5" MBP instead of 13.3" MBP. but not sure which is panel size is cheaper to make, I see HP using 14.5" in their Envy series. if anyone has knowledge about the panel size/resolution/cost please enlighten.
13.3"/11" just fine for MBA.
interesting times for the MBP.
Correct me if there is already one but I doubt it, but there needs to be a sub-forum just for "upcoming" and that would solve a lot of issues... theres a couple of different ways you could lay that out.
Call them MacBook Semi-Pros.
That's already my nickname for 13" MBPs.
I'm looking to be impressed by Apple or else my tax return I've been holding onto will go to another manufacturer.
It's time to trifurcate the MacBooks
There's an obvious solution that should make both the DVD haters and DVD/BD lovers happy - split the MacBook line into three models.
MacBook Pro - let that be what the rumours about a more "Air-like" have been saying. Drop the optical, slim it down a bit. (I'd argue that the killer feature would be to have an Air-like blade or 1.8" SSD for the system drive, and use some of the optical space for an optional 2.5" drive (fast SSD or huge spinning HD - choose when you BTO). Even with a second drive, you'd still be able to both slim it down and increase the battery capacity.
MacBook Workstation - Tim, break the turtlenecked overlord's shackles and make a real pro system. Big memory, good graphics, BD burner, two 2.5 spindles, ports galore.
Many graphics, video, photo and audio professional want power much more than "thin and light".
Want a starting point, look at the Dell M4600 15.6" portable:
If you opt for the 17" model, you get three internal 2.5" drive bays and up to an NVIDIA® Quadro® 5010M with 4GiB GDDR5.
There's an obvious solution that should make both the DVD haters and DVD/BD lovers happy - split the MacBook line into three models.
- MacBook Air - 11", 13", 15"
- MacBook Pro - 13", 15" (really MacBook "Semi-Pro" as the previous 2 posts said)
- MacBook Workstation - 15", 17"
No real change for the MacBook Air - it's all about light and portable.- MacBook Pro - 13", 15" (really MacBook "Semi-Pro" as the previous 2 posts said)
- MacBook Workstation - 15", 17"
MacBook Pro - let that be what the rumours about a more "Air-like" have been saying. Drop the optical, slim it down a bit. (I'd argue that the killer feature would be to have an Air-like blade or 1.8" SSD for the system drive, and use some of the optical space for an optional 2.5" drive (fast SSD or huge spinning HD - choose when you BTO). Even with a second drive, you'd still be able to both slim it down and increase the battery capacity.
MacBook Workstation - Tim, break the turtlenecked overlord's shackles and make a real pro system. Big memory, good graphics, BD burner, two 2.5 spindles, ports galore.
Many graphics, video, photo and audio professional want power much more than "thin and light".
Want a starting point, look at the Dell M4600 15.6" portable:
- Intel® Core™ i7-2960XM (Extreme Quad Core 2.70GHz,8M cache)
- up to 32 GiB of RAM
- display choices up to 1920x1080 anti-glare IPS
- graphics up to NVIDIA® Quadro® 2000M with 2GiB GDDR3
- two 2.5" bays, SSD and HDD choices up to 750 GB
- DVD bay, BD option
- internal HSPA-EVDO 3G modem
If you opt for the 17" model, you get three internal 2.5" drive bays and up to an NVIDIA® Quadro® 5010M with 4GiB GDDR5.
They had three lines when they had the regular Macbook, I like your thought besides bring the "Macbook" back as the middle then the top level be a "Macbook Pro". But I doubt any of that would happen, they are looking to simplify I think or else they wouldn't have done away with the three different levels to begin with.
Apple has never had a real "pro" laptop - at least in the x64 era. And the "simplification" amounted to dumbing down the MBP to the MB level, but call it the MBP.
Three lines is pretty simple, IMO.
The 13" MacBook Pros are really just "MacBooks". Literally. Historically, the "MacBook" line had three models, Good, Better, and Best. In 2008, the Better and Best models were given an aluminum enclosure, and in 2009, said models were integrated in with the "MacBook Pro" line as the 13" MacBook Pro. They've never had more than the current IGP flavor of the year, nor will they ever. To call them "MacBook Pro" is kind of silly given that the whole point of the "MacBook Pro" line versus either the late "MacBook" line and the "MacBook Air" line is to have every feature you could possibly want in a Mac laptop (though I feel like eSATA fans will jump on this claim). No discrete graphics and not even the best of the 13.3" displays being shipped kind of makes it a very silly machine to be bearing that moniker.
I feel like an Apple "'pro' laptop", like something akin to the Dell Precision workstation laptops or something akin to those gamer laptops, would be fairly unreliable given Apple's penchant for thinness, and the pre-existing unreliability of those machines even at their stereotypical thickness. While I feel like Apple could use slightly higher-end GPUs and maybe slightly higher-end mobile CPUs, I'm actually kind of grateful that they stopped where they did as I feel like much more and they'd be making the machine somewhat unreliable at the expense of a speed boost so slight that few would even notice it. Though this is coming from the standpoint of someone who would be and will be fine with a 15" MacBook Pro as his only Mac for doing all tasks that working with a Mac would entail, both for professional and personal use.
BTW, I should have repeated what I said earlier in that I meant "pro laptop" to mean a high-powered laptop suitable for creative (audio/photo/video) and other (statistics/scientific/development/QA) professionals who need lots of power (CPU&GPU), lots of IO, and lots of storage while on the road or while moving between offices (or between office and home).
Obviously a lawyer or an analyst using an MBA is a "pro" user, but their demands on the laptop are far less.
Two comments:
Obviously a lawyer or an analyst using an MBA is a "pro" user, but their demands on the laptop are far less.
Two comments:
- The "MacBook Workstation" should not be a "thin" system. If you want thin, get an MBA or a MacBook Pro. Toss all the ideas about "thin, lightweight, long battery life" out the window when designing a portable workstation. Think CPU, think GPU, think 16-32 GiB of RAM, think 2-4 GiB of VRAM, think TB of disk space, think of the power supply and cooling so that it can run at 100% for long periods without meltdown. Think of the battery as a built-in UPS for minor interruptions - not as a trans-oceanic movie-watching feature.
- You really can't mention the "pre-existing unreliability of those machines" without links to well-factored studies that demonstrate that "unreliability". Without links, it's just FUD.
This is unassailable logic. By the same logic, Apple should drop glossy displays and just go with anti-glare, since it has been shown that when people have the choice, 75%-90% of people will choose anti-glare.