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There is a lot more greed and vested interest on one side than the other.
I don't give a **** about Al Gore and have no idea why you even bring him into this discussion. But anyway, from what I know, the vast majority of his money came from the sale of Current TV, hedge fund investments and various lucrative advisory and corporate positions (including on Apple's board of directors).

Gore is on the board of Apple -- that's why I brought him up, specifically.

Read the Washington Post article I posted about Gore's "thriving" as an investor in "green" companies. I doubt very seriously that one of the most liberal-leaning papers in the country is out to get Gore; and that article states quite clearly that Gore has benefitted quite handsomely from pushing his green agenda. Granted, he received much more benefit while Obama was in office than he will under the current administration, I'm sure.
 
No, he wouldn't and he shouldn't. Stop thinking economy versus ecology. It's not one versus the other. A lot of business people have already understood this and no doubt they will become the most successful entrepreneurs of the future.

But what we do need: strong regulations to level the playing field. To make sure everybody produces by the same high standards. The worst thing that can be done is deregulations, and unfortunately that's exactly what this administration is doing. Short term thinking.


Totally agree. I would love to find a good example of a long term benefit to deregulation. Imagine if your utility companies were free to charge whatever like the pharmaceutical companies? one month you are paying 50 dollars for power then the next you are paying 500 dollars just because they feel like making more money. Oh and what about those incredibly smart bankers who were left unchecked. How did that go...

Humans + lots of money are incredibly dangerous left unchecked.
 
I have no problem with a company choosing to strangle themselves with over the top regulation. I do have a problem with the government forcing it on companies.
 
I don't give a **** about Al Gore and have no idea why you even bring him into this discussion. But anyway, from what I know, the vast majority of his money came from the sale of Current TV, hedge fund investments and various lucrative advisory and corporate positions (including on Apple's board of directors).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...faa5b0-0b11-11e2-bd1a-b868e65d57eb_story.html

Al Gore has thrived as green-tech investor

Just before leaving public office in 2001, Gore reported assets of less than $2 million; today, his wealth is estimated at $100 million.

Gore charted this path by returning to his longtime passion — clean energy. He benefited from a powerful resume and a constellation of friends in the investment world and in Washington. And four years ago, his portfolio aligned smoothly with the agenda of an incoming administration and its plan to spend billions in stimulus funds on alternative energy.

The recovering politician was pushing the right cause at the perfect time.

Fourteen green-tech firms in which Gore invested received or directly benefited from more than $2.5 billion in loans, grants and tax breaks, part of President Obama’s historic push to seed a U.S. renewable-energy industry with public money.

 
Gore is on the board of Apple -- that's why I brought him up, specifically.

Read the Washington Post article I posted about Gore's "thriving" as an investor in "green" companies. I doubt very seriously that one of the most liberal-leaning papers in the country is out to get Gore; and that article states quite clearly that Gore has benefitted quite handsomely from pushing his green agenda. Granted, he received much more benefit while Obama was in office than he will under the current administration, I'm sure.

So yes, he pushed a green agenda and made money out of it. Trump pushes a far-right agenda that will make the rich richer, and the poor poorer while destroying the environment only to enrich himself and his business allies.

So, it's ok to live the American dream and become rich, unless you want to do it in a green way? What exactly is your point?
 
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I would love to find a good example of a long term benefit to deregulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act

In the words of US Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer:

What does the industry's history tell us? Was this effort worthwhile? Certainly it shows that every major reform brings about new, sometimes unforeseen, problems. No one foresaw the industry's spectacular growth, with the number of air passengers increasing from 207.5 million in 1974 to 721.1 million last year. As a result, no one foresaw the extent to which new bottlenecks would develop: a flight-choked Northeast corridor, overcrowded airports, delays, and terrorist risks consequently making air travel increasingly difficult. Nor did anyone foresee the extent to which change might unfairly harm workers in the industry. Still, fares have come down. Airline revenue per passenger mile has declined from an inflation-adjusted 33.3 cents in 1974, to 13 cents in the first half of 2010. In 1974 the cheapest round-trip New York-Los Angeles flight (in inflation-adjusted dollars) that regulators would allow: $1,442. Today one can fly that same route for $268. That is why the number of travelers has gone way up. So we sit in crowded planes, munch potato chips, flare up when the loudspeaker announces yet another flight delay. But how many now will vote to go back to the "good old days" of paying high, regulated prices for better service? Even among business travelers, who wants to pay "full fare for the briefcase?"
 
So, it's ok to live the American dream and become rich, unless you want to do it in a green way? What exactly is your point?

His point, and mine, is that this American dream is not confined to the right or the left. Both sides pursue political agendas for their own interest, and it usually includes financial gain.

Your claim that only one side engages in it, or that one side engages in a larger magnitude, is either blind partisanship or willful ignorance.
 
If Cook actually manufactured products in the USA, then he would have a different view on Trump's policy.

Trump is stupid. Everything he does is stupid. Everyone who voted for him is stupid.

Tim Cook is clearly smart enough to NEVER agree with Trump about anything. That would just be STUPID.

You need to brush up on your politics.

Since Hillary lost, we've all known for a FACT that the Russians were busy hacking the election the WHOLE TIME.

The smartest people in the world were just playing it cool, letting it slide...

So NO - he's not STUPID ENOUGH to EVER agree with that bumbling IDIOT Russian stooge EVER. Not gonna happen.

And why are we still on this settled science about climate change when the Russians are the ones steadily poisoning the minds of every Dumb Redneck Hillbilly Racist American they can reach with their fake news?

There wouldn't even be any climate change denial if it weren't for the RUSSIANS peddling their alternate facts.

It's bad enough we lost Hillary. We can't afford to lose the WHOLE EARTH to the Russians. Once the Earth is gone, it'll be a little too late to go about blaming them.

Seriously - haven't we already LEARNED OUR LESSON HERE FOLKS!?!
 
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I have no problem with a company choosing to strangle themselves with over the top regulation. I do have a problem with the government forcing it on companies.

Without Government intervention companies will go for the option with the most profit which won't be for the benefit of the planet we all live on
 
His point, and mine, is that this American dream is not confined to the right or the left. Both sides pursue political agendas for their own interest, and it usually includes financial gain.

Your claim that only one side engages in it, or that one side engages in a larger magnitude, is either blind partisanship or willful ignorance.

That's the opposite of what I claimed: I agreed that Al Gore makes money out of supporting Greentech companies. My point is that you can make money by supporting/investing in a good cause (in this case green tech) and that's ok. Making money by polluting or making the poor even more poor: not ok.

But yes: abuse happens on both sides of the spectrum. Unfortunately. But again, that does not negate the fact that climate change is happening right in front of us. And it's clear that if we wait until politicians do something about it, it will be too late.
 
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Yeah, "going green" means we need to reduce carbon dioxide...lol...the sheer ignorance of the masses...Folks it is a scientific, experimentally repeatable, proven fact that carbon dioxide increases plant growth when levels are elevated because they feed on it...It's plant food...So why would anyone be for going green want to get rid of something that plants thrive on? The ignorance of this would be funny if the consequences of the global warming agenda weren't so severe making all of us pay a select few like Al Gore and others to be able to even breathe or burn wood...
Now, there are real environmental toxins that need to be dealt with but carbon dioxide is not one of them..The folks pushing the whole carbon scheme set up trading platforms so that a select few reap huge financial gains taxing entire governments over something that comes out of your mouth every time you exhale.

Why not talk about real environmental threats like nuclear power...One accident and you have an entire large city that will be uninhabitable for 50 to 100 years....look up chernobyl, look at pictures of the city around Fukushima....Funny how folks like Cook are silent on real threats....Cook is really becoming irritating.
 
Yeah, "going green" means we need to reduce carbon dioxide...lol...the sheer ignorance of the masses...Folks it is a scientific, experimentally repeatable, proven fact that carbon dioxide increases plant growth when levels are elevated because they feed on it...It's plant food...So why would anyone be for going green want to get rid of something that plants thrive on?
Now, there are real environmental toxins that need to be dealt with but carbon dioxide is not one of them..The folks pushing the whole carbon scheme set up trading platforms so that a select few reap huge financial gains taxing entire governments over something that comes out of your mouth every time you exhale.

Why not talk about real environmental threats like nuclear power...One accident and you have an entire large city that will be uninhabitable for 50 to 100 years....look up chernobyl, look at pictures of the city around Fukushima....Funny how folks like Cook are silent on real threats....Cook is really becoming irritating.

As a climate scientist I'd like to point out that CO2 is also a greenhouse gas, besides being "plant food" as you call it. Our atmosphere protects us from radiation and keeps our planet nice and warm. Without the atmosphere, it would be freezing cold on planet Earth. Thanks to the greenhouse gases (including CO2) in the atmosphere, the sun's radiation gets trapped around our globe and makes Earth a nice liveable planet. Great!

Unfortunately, we are currently pumping a lot of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that were previously safely trapped underground. This enhances the greenhouse effect causing the Earth to warm up. The heat cannot escape into space anymore and wraps around our planet like a blanket. The equilibrium of the climate system is being disrupted.

So, yes. CO2 is a natural gas, it's happily consumed by plants, humans exhale it. And yes, there are also real toxic gases and substances causing local pollution and harm. But CO2, and it's much stronger cousin, Methane CH4, do have a serious global effect. Two completely separate issues.
 
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Right - because nothing is better for the economy than millions of lost jobs, entire industries decimted and some idiot like Musk sucking taxpayer money via subsides to keep his goofy car company afloat. Great. All in the name of JUNK science.

Musk's motivation is not primarily based on environmental science. His three pronged plan of Tesla, Solar City and SpaceX are to do with getting humanity into space and on other planets. It is presumed that planets such as Mars do not have oil to extract which means other sources of energy need to be developed and utilized.
 
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1) Fracking does not cut CO2 emissions. That's one of those "alternative facts". In reality, a lot of methane and green house gases escape during the fracking process. Taking those into account, fracking is even worse than coal.

Source?

Obama's former Energy Secretary and former head of the physics dept of MIT disagrees with you.

Hydraulic fracturing, a process more commonly referred to as fracking, is actually good for the environment, Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz said at a field hearing in Seattle last week,

“The increased production of oil and natural gas in the United States has, obviously, been a major story in terms of our economy, and also our environment,” said Moniz, who previously served as the head of the Physics department at the Massachusetts Institute for Technology, earned a doctorate degree in physics from Stanford University.

“The natural gas boom, in particular, has led to the displacement of high-carbon coal with low-carbon natural gas producing fewer emissions,” Moniz reportedly said during the Seattle field hearing.
 
I'm shocked that attitude towards climate change is even considered "political". We know climate change is happening. . . . .

True if you don't consider anything outside of your lifetime. Otherwise the proof that this is false is there and oddly enough we don't have report after report about the the fact that there is no man made climate change being fabricated for financial or political gain.

No one in this day and age with any intellectual honesty would conclude that man-made global warming is really happening. Do we need to keep monitoring climate and learning, sure. Do we need to make rash decisions and laws based on the unknown, nope.

. . . . We know oil is finite and will run out in the next 200 years or so. . . . .

And yet every year we find more oil. Odd how that works in your limited world.
 
Trump is stupid. Everything he does is stupid. Everyone who voted for him is stupid.

Tim Cook is clearly smart enough to NEVER agree with Trump about anything. That would just be STUPID.

You need to brush up on your politics.

Since Hillary lost, we've all known for a FACT that the Russians were busy hacking the election the WHOLE TIME.

The smartest people in the world were just playing it cool, letting it slide...

So NO - he's not STUPID ENOUGH to EVER agree with that bumbling IDIOT Russian stooge EVER. Not gonna happen.

And why are we still on this settled science about climate change when the Russians are the ones steadily poisoning the minds of every Dumb Redneck Hillbilly Racist American they can reach with their fake news?

There wouldn't even be any climate change denial if it weren't for the RUSSIANS peddling their alternate facts.

It's bad enough we lost Hillary. We can't afford to lose the WHOLE EARTH to the Russians. Once the Earth is gone, it'll be a little too late to go about blaming them.

Seriously - haven't we already LEARNED OUR LESSON HERE FOLKS!?!
Can you tell me exactly how the Russians "Hacked" the election? Are you sure it's a FACT? Have you seen the actual evidence? Wikileaks states the emails from the DNC they published did not come from the Russians. So what exactly was this HACKING?
 
Oil isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The hypocrisy of these companies is amazing. Without oil and petrochemicals, their business lines would cease to exist in no time. Oil is used in everything from the mining of raw materials, to manufacturing and processing of their products to shipping. And this whole thing about using renewables is just virtue signalling. Their efforts will have zero impact on global warming, or climate change, or whatever they call it these days. The climate has been changing since the dawn of time and it's ludicrous to think humans have any impact on it. CO2 is plant food, not pollution. I'm all for clean air, water and land, but this green religion called climate change is nothing but a sham.
And some of those proclaiming that gospel seem to live rather 'large' themselves. Looking at you, Gore and Suzuki.
 
This is totally worth it to be competitive with China in manufacturing.

china-bad-pollution-climate-change-7__880.jpg
Actually that is the very image I was thinking of the I posted what I did. We have made very significant progress in pollution control well before the Obama policies. I lived in Los Angeles in 1972 when the air hurt my eyes every day. I could still breathe most of the time, unlike the Chinese today. I have a journalist friend that lived in Bejing for several years and he couldn't wait to get back home to clean(er) air.

As a reminder to other readers here is what I SAID:

me said:
The reason why the Trump policy makes sense is the Obama policy unilaterally makes domestic firms less competitive as compared to gross polluters in China and other developing countries. The Trump policy does not preclude domestic firms from being eco-friendly and the proposed tax policy will allow IMMEDIATE EXPENSING of eco-friendly equipment, services, and R&D. Major deal, different approach. Less prescriptive, more incentivised.
Context matters. :D
 
Source?

Obama's former Energy Secretary and former head of the physics dept of MIT disagrees with you.

The footprint for shale gas is greater than that for conventional gas or oil when viewed on any time horizon, but particularly so over 20 years. Compared to coal, the footprint of shale gas is at least 20% greater and perhaps more than twice as great on the 20-year horizon and is comparable when compared over 100 years.

http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/howarth/Howarth et al 2011.pdf
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fracking-would-emit-methane/
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...nhouse-gas-emissions-study-says-a6928126.html
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2011/04/fracking-leaks-may-make-gas-dirtier-coal
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Fracking_and_climate_change
https://www.skepticalscience.com/frackingandCO2.html

Again, there will be plenty of fracking lobby groups that will claim otherwise. Create doubt and uncertainty. Get the business going for a couple of decades and leave the consequences for a later generation. That's how it was with asbestos, cigarets, lead paint, etc. Companies know way sooner than the public if something is dangerous but they will hide it to protect their investments and business model.
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No one in this day and age with any intellectual honesty would conclude that man-made global warming is really happening.

You're right. Except the scientists that actually study climate and climate change.

If you don't know the facts, if you don't understand the science and the physics, please don't form an opinion based on hear-say. I invite you to learn about the climate, open an book, study the greenhouse effect, learn about the atmosphere and our greenhouse gases, look at the impact of the industrial evolution, maybe (gasp) look at climate models us scientists have made studying millions of years of Earths history. Look at the numbers and the raw data. Then, come back and let's talk again about intellectual honesty. Shall we?
 
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That's the opposite of what I claimed: I agreed that Al Gore makes money out of supporting Greentech companies. My point is that you can make money by supporting/investing in a good cause (in this case green tech) and that's ok. Making money by polluting or making the poor even more poor: not ok.

But yes: abuse happens on both sides of the spectrum. Unfortunately. But again, that does not negate the fact that climate change is happening right in front of us. And it's clear that if wait until politicians do something about it, it will be too late.

My apologies, as I erred and thought I was replying to Rigby. But, to address your points:

I think we can agree that polluting is not good. But, despite your righteous belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, it's not quite as obvious as you want everyone to believe.

I spent a good part of my career doing various kinds of modeling. So, I have a different perspective on what models generate: they don't generate facts, they generate projections. And, the projections are only as good as the input data and the model algorithms. If the input data is wrong or even incomplete, or the algorithms have methodological problems, the model's projections will be wrong.

So, what did I do? I went through a validation process, in which I compared the projection of the model to the known behavior of the modeled process or system under the same input conditions. I had the ability to exercise the modeled process or system, so I could test a wide range of input conditions. If they didn't match, I was obviously missing something. And even then, I had to be careful to limit the scope of the projections because if you got too far from the original (and validated) input conditions, some unknown factor would likely invalidate the model's projections.

But despite all these efforts, I still had cases where the model was subsequently proven to be wrong. In every case, it was an input condition that I didn't account for. In one notable case, it was something that I explicitly addressed, only to find that I was given incorrect information.

This is where I see that climate modeling has failed. Over the past couple of decades, nearly every one of them has failed to predict the trend. Of course, this discrepancy is being explained away as "random fluctuations in the Earth's climate". But, if I had tried to say that during my career, I would have been looking for a new job. Instead, I would have been compelled to go back and examine the data and model and find out where I failed.

However, I have no doubt that climate change is happening, as it has been doing so for millennia and I don't know why anyone would think it has suddenly stopped, then restarted by mankind. Where I disagree is whether a model can constitute proof that humans are a significant contributor, and whether a model can forecast if any change in human behavior can prevent it from occurring. It's not a testable hypothesis, and the use of "backcasting" to test models incorrectly presumes that all other unmodeled influences on global climate will somehow repeat exactly in the future.

Finally, one of the problems with "green energy" is that it disproportionately impacts the poor, by raising their cost of energy, and further downstream: the costs of their goods and services that require energy to produce. The "wealthy" and "middle class" (however you define those terms) have enough disposable income to be able to absorb those increased costs. So in that regard, "green energy" fails one of your tests.
 
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I'm a climate scientist. If you don't believe what me and my colleagues have been warning about for 20+ years, that's fine. But if policy makers or the president don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit their agenda, we do have a problem. Science is not political. It's just science. Facts.

The biggest argument for climate change deniers is that climate has been changing since the dawn of time. Guess how they know that? Yes, us climate scientists. But if those same scientists notice there's something wrong, suddenly they don't believe it. Hypocritical no?

How ignorant can you be to think we don't have an impact on our planet. We destroy complete ecosystems, wipe animal and plant species of the face of the earth, cut down forests at an alarming rate, pollute rivers and the air, ... we know that land use changes such as urbanisation and agriculture have a big impact on weather and rain patterns, even thousands kilometres away, ... But the climate? That's where you draw the line? That's the one magical thing on our fragile Earth we can't impact?

Well, the impact is there, and it's huge. The last decades we had a dampening effect of climate change because there are all these buffers, like trapping heath in the oceans, but these buffers are getting full. That combined with many powerful feedback loops, i.e. melting of ice, thawing of permafrost, to name a few, will re-enforce what we have been seeing this last years. And that is a rise in global temperature and more unstable, extreme weather.

Now, even if you still don't "believe" that (and I hate to use that word in the context of science), I assume you do realise that climate change (natural or man made) will have huge impacts on the planet and our lives? So even if the current White House administration doesn't want to address the causes, why is it also ignoring the consequences? Ignoring scientific facts and thus jeopardizing the future of our planet, is criminal. There's no other word for it.

Climate scientists cannot predict the wind, rain, etc tomorrow, they can't predict the the hurricane season, they can't predict snowfall next winter, etc. There is absolutely nothing to verify that current climate models mean anything other than interesting research. Sorry to bust your bubble.

Our local professional weather forecaster uses an American model and a European model, neither agree at all. Its just like the stock market, I can create a mathematical model that predicts tomorrow's stock prices with 90% accuracy based on historical data and yet it won't accurately report tomorrows stock prices.

Part of the problem here is that scientists don't bother to really understand statistics. You can't hunt around for a model and then declare victory when you find it. That is not how statistics work, regardless of what you have been taught.

The other part of the problem is that people tend to find what they are paid to find even if they have to cut corners to protect their income. Now I am not saying that any given climate scientists purposefully (although we now know that a lot do) falsify reports, but they have been trained in school to misuse statistics to prove non-existent facts. It is hard to prove causality, and easy to mistake correlation with causality.

In the medical sciences there are professors at ivy league schools that now believe that 50 to 90 percent of drug studies are not reproducible in followup studies because the statistics were misused and did not prove the research. This is an endemic problem in all research sciences that rely of statistics. In addition, a lay person with a high school diploma can usually read these research studies and invalidate them because the assumptions are often just ignorant. As an engineer and having read 50+ studies that claim to prove man made climate destruction and I stopped reading them because if I applied the logic they used to my engineering work things would fall down, explode, catch fire, fail to work, etc. It is just sloppy work by academics that for what ever reason have turned brain dead. My guess is that the root problem is the money. But who knows. I do know a carpetbagger when I see one and the ones today don't arrive in the dead of night, but come in on the evening news.
 
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