Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Cute, but a total fantasy. I don't represent or misrepresent your view. If you feel that your point is not getting through, it's for one of the following reasons: you're not clear enough or your point is not clear enough.

As for straw men, I don't use them in making my point. No need, they're cheap shots. :p

You seem to be genuinely unaware of your misrepresentation, so perhaps I'll try to be clearer to see how you respond. I'll give this another go.

When we began this dialogue, I asked you to give me an explanation regarding what you thought was dumb about the way Apple is, or has recently, been developing OS X. You mentioned a list, and I selected responded to some. Here I'll address the first four as a test run to see how discussion with you goes.

You said Apple added the following features that made OS X dumber:

(1) Launchpad: I told you that launchpad was entirely optional, so nothing about the overall experience had to be dumber. You could keep everything as you wanted it, or you could use the new added feature if you liked. Your response was whether or not Launchpad was optional, was irrelevant because launchpad itself was dumb. Well, there isn't much of an explanation there on your part. But regardless of whether or not we agree that Launchpad is dumb, the OS is not dumber as a result since you can keep all the "intelligence" it used to have.

That being said, launchpad is a good, intelligent feature, for those interested in using it. Here's why. First, forget about where it got its inspiration, just consider it on its own terms. Before launchpad, if you wanted to launch a rarely used app, you had a few options. (a) you could go look for it in Finder. (b) type its name in spotlight, and then launch it, (c) have it on your dock, or (d) have an Application icon on your dock which opened up a list of Apps, from which you can select to launch your rarely used app.

Well, doing (a) is process that takes multiple steps and it is inefficient. (b) is also cumbersome and time consuming. (c) and (d) congest the dock for not good reason. Well, with the new Launchpad, I can activate it through a hotkey, or through a hot corner, so for the most part it is invisible to my usual computing experience. Then when I need to access a rarely used app, I can quickly load it up. I can also quickly delete no longer needed Apps from Launchpad. So, regardless of its interface, it is a wonderful shortcut for my usage. It might not be needed for you, but this extra facility for many others is useful. So what that it got its interface from iOS. I couldn't care less. I evaluate it on its own merits.

(2) Scrollbars: This point was sufficiently addressed initially. I said it was ugly and unnecessary. You replied by claiming it is objectively convenient and informative. Well, by definition, something objective is something that can be proven. So prove to me what convenience it adds, and what information it adds, that I can't obtain otherwise, or through simply moving my screen ever so slightly to activate the invisible scrollbars? Using loaded language like "objective" is not a very convincing way to argue a point unless you back your usage up with reasons.

(3) Magic trackpad: Multiple finger swipes, regardless of iOS is incredibly useful for many of us. It optimizes our workflow. Explain why it is dumb. The onus is on you here. And your joystick comment is ridiculous, please come up with a better analogy.

(4) Reversing scrolling: Alright, so let's begin this way. When you code your interface, it seems you have multiple options about how to make your screen scroll. Suppose you want to make your window move down. Here are two options you can do:

(a) make it so that the gestures you use on your track pad represent the action that you want to happen on the screen. So, for example, you move down on the trackpad, and the screen moves down.

or (b) make it so that the gestures you use on your track pad undertake the action that you want to happen to the screen. So for example, if I want to see what is underneath what is currently written within the window, I move that portion of the window up, to see what lies below.

Now, it is possible that one of these is more intuitive than the other on the desktop platform. But regardless of that initial possibility, one thing is blatantly clear. One way or another, you brain will quickly adapt to whatever option is selected, and the process of having the screen scroll will no longer be one you think about, it'll become second nature. There is a very fast habituation that occurs.

Alright, now enter iOS. On iOS, given the touchscreen interface, (b) is more intuitive than (a). Also, the habituation on that interface is not nearly as fast as it is on the desktop environment since your hand gestures are immediately in contact with the screen and do not become invisible or second nature to the computing environment. So, if, as it happened historically, you started the desktop with (a), and your mobile devices with (b), you now have two very different approaches to dealing with a simple process, namely, scrolling.

You can either leave it that way, confusing new and future users, or you can make the process consistent without great loss. The desktop users will need adapt should you implement (b), but that is a loss worth bearing since the habituation curve is so fast. But, that being said, for people who are accustomed to their ways can keep the desktop environment as it was, by keeping (a) in their system preferences.

Nothing about this is dumb. Is is carefully thought out. Nothing about this has anything to do with the "power" or "mobility" of the devices. The desktop could have been programmed to do (a) or (b) at the very start. Changing from one to the other can be done at anytime without causing much inconvenience to the user, especially considering that the user is not obliged to make the transition. Again, what Apple did was it added options for people who prefer consistency between their devices. You see, the beauty about computers is whatever they were initially designed for, whatever their mobility or power limitations, we can redesign them and change their utilities anytime we so desire. There is no "inherent" nature to these objects, and similarly, no inherent inconsistency between the functions we put them towards. The intended designs are malleable.

When you talk about "The two products, Macs and iToys are by their very nature "inconsistent"" you are talking utter nonsense friend. Computer's aren't Platonic forms. When you say stuff like,

"You make the logical fallacy of Since A is made by C and B is made by C, thus A and B must be made the same." you completely miss the point. It isn't because Macs and iDevices are made by Apple that they are the same, or ought to be the same, it is rather that we can ameliorate the functioning of both devices by changing their designs and functions, should we so choose, and should people desire it. If those, like you, don't like the redesigned functions, don't use them. But to think people, or Apple, are dumb because they choose to ameliorate the experience of the vast majority of their consumers is sheer nonsense. The world of computers is not made for you.
 
So you criticize someone for no arguments yet you come up with nil? Just empty talk about technologies that make computer life better? How much better will a separate notes app and a reminders app make your life? Is that os update material? Do they accidentally happen to match the styling of ios?

Read the first paragraph you quote. I gave the main reason why it is useful to take the direction Apple is taking. Now, if you like more specifics, fine let's engage. You ask how much better will a separate notes app and reminders app be for me specifically? Well, I don't like having my notes mixed in with my emails, and I don't use/need reminders, so I'm happy to have them taken out of the Calendar app. Separating notes and reminders therefore seems like something that will ameliorate my user experience. And if it is possible, I see no reason not to have all my devices, whether it is a mac, iPhone, or iPad, always been in sync regarding these types of files. No reason not to have just one calendar. I suspect the vast majority of people would prefer things this way. Do you have an argument as to why they shouldn't be separated?

How much better is the new monochromatic finder sidebar making your computer life, when people need colour cues instead of reading through the multitude of items on the sidebar. Is it making it your life better that you used to be able to drop a folder that had a customized image and now this folder defaults to monochrome on the sidebar.

Earlier in the thread I criticized Apple for this. So what purpose is there in bringing this up?

Is it making your life better that on the .8 release of a major os you still don't have a way to scale up all the fonts of the os in resolution independence and we keep getting eye strain from the menu bar in ever increasing resolution screens?

Resolution independence is a much needed feature that has been missing for a while. But again, I don't see what this has to do with the "direction Apple is taking".

Is everything popping up back to you upon restart on lion making your tech life better? Or is keeping by default versions making your life easier so you just keep redundant data by default on everything. Is a launcher app a la iphone really making your tech life that more better?

Much better on all counts.

Is a calendar akin to ios better when it displays less information making your life better? Is contacts looking like a real life contacts book, much smaller and less helpful on a mac useful? Is a paradigm that fits well a tablet device good on the mac?

Why is it less helpful? All those apps do what I need and are more aesthetically designed now than they were in SL, quite an improvement. And is it really giving less information/utility? In what way, be specific man/woman.

Where's a robust zfs type file system to handle data integrity better?

Why is that needed? Data integrity doesn't seem to be a problem, and TC keeps my backuped anyway. But again, stay on topic. What has this to do with the "dumbification" of OS X? Did zfs exist in SL?

Where is a major rewrite to itunes that will be actually usable in syncing ios devices, than the bloatware that itunes has become that's become increasingly complex and unruly for the average person?

Dunno, but I hope it comes soon. So far all your complaints are changing the direction of the discussion. If you are only going to list complaints, then you are missing the point of the earlier debate.

No matter what misguided world apple devs live in, no matter what market speak we have here, this clearly is no more than a commercial service patch with major ios eye candy to attract more users and meet with windows 8 release.

Perhaps, but I'm happy they intend to release such "patches" on a yearly basis. Some years we will get more, some less. So what?

You would think that the os x team would have actually got some hints from the reviews and the reception of os x 10.7 vista, you would think that they'd woken up and smelled the coffee, and that they were actually developing something useful, something that has an element of a few new USEFUL features, let alone some features that have a certain vision in them.

What's useful to you isn't necessarily so to everyone else you know.
 
A lot of people seem to not understand the difference between dumbing down (ie, removing features and complexity) and simply adding in new features that are simple and intuitive. :rolleyes:

Lion is not dumbed down. It's still the same old Unix desktop system it's been since the days of Cheetah on PowerPC hardware. I run things like GNU screen, vim, nmap on it daily, all my Perl and bash scripts work just dandy.

Heck, if Lion is so dumbed down, why does the following even work :

Code:
$ echo -e "\033[1;32mA\033[1;33mp\033[0;33mp\033[1;31ml\033[0;35me\033[1;34m\041\033[0m"

What a dumb OS. :rolleyes:
 
Heck, if Lion is so dumbed down, why does the following even work :

Code:
$ echo -e "\033[1;32mA\033[1;33mp\033[0;33mp\033[1;31ml\033[0;35me\033[1;34m\041\033[0m"

What a dumb OS. :rolleyes:

Well because Apple obviously hasn't gotten around to eliminating that yet, duh. Thanks for calling it to attention though. Consider it next on the chopping block!
 
Read the first paragraph you quote. I gave the main reason why it is useful to take the direction Apple is taking. Now, if you like more specifics, fine let's engage. You ask how much better will a separate notes app and reminders app be for me specifically? Well, I don't like having my notes mixed in with my emails, and I don't use/need reminders, so I'm happy to have them taken out of the Calendar app. Separating notes and reminders therefore seems like something that will ameliorate my user experience. And if it is possible, I see no reason not to have all my devices, whether it is a mac, iPhone, or iPad, always been in sync regarding these types of files. No reason not to have just one calendar. I suspect the vast majority of people would prefer things this way. Do you have an argument as to why they shouldn't be separated?
No I don't, because my argument is that this is hardly a new os "feature". Apple has been syncing notes and sending them to the inbox in os x mail.app too and they fixed the broken way they were doing it with a separate app. If having yet another app on the dock is useful is debatable, as is a separate reminders app, what you suspect the vast majority of people would prefer. New features to tout they are not. Who would be thinking that at 10.8 they would be with such a shortage of vision to go forward other than to tout a reminders app as a new os feature.

Earlier in the thread I criticized Apple for this. So what purpose is there in bringing this up?
Just because you criticized something earlier on and I didn't happen to read it, doesn't mean it doesn't go against your own main argument.

Resolution independence is a much needed feature that has been missing for a while. But again, I don't see what this has to do with the "direction Apple is taking".
The direction they are taking is that of not addressing real longstanding usability concerns such as ri of which os x is in dire need by now and instead opting to tout a reminders app and chinese support...


Much better on all counts.
Not according to a great number of the os x user base.

Why is it less helpful? All those apps do what I need and are more aesthetically designed now than they were in SL, quite an improvement. And is it really giving less information/utility? In what way, be specific man/woman.
They are designed to look like something you would use on a tablet but not a mac, I have been as specific as one can be.

Why is that needed? Data integrity doesn't seem to be a problem, and TC keeps my backuped anyway. But again, stay on topic. What has this to do with the "dumbification" of OS X? Did zfs exist in SL?
Lot's of things don't seem to be a problem until you run into one. There's a reason why disk warrior util exists. One would say a launcher app is not needed, you opt to say say that a better file system is not needed. It's dumbification in the sense that eye catching ios elements become a priority, and core os progress does not. Apple is trying to appeal to the lowest common iphone using denominator and not opt for real technological progress in the backbone of their system. ZFS did not exist in SL, so by that token a better file system should never materialize?

Dunno, but I hope it comes soon. So far all your complaints are changing the direction of the discussion. If you are only going to list complaints, then you are missing the point of the earlier debate.
I respect your honesty here as in resolution independence in that you are not trying to dodge that there is an issue with itunes that needs at some point to be addressed. And I take your point that I am diverging from the earlier debate, but to me "dumbification" is broader in that the user base learns to fail to demand "the world's most advanced os" to continue advancing and opts to be happy with something that looks more like their iphones.

Perhaps, but I'm happy they intend to release such "patches" on a yearly basis. Some years we will get more, some less. So what?
At what point do you think os x should have resolution independence? 10.9? This story with ri has become ridiculous already. They 've clearly abandoned it. And the yearly basis you presuppose is not a given, this is clearly a marketing patch with some left over "features" from lion touted as a new os to match windows 8.
 
We're getting closer to OS X 11.0! Or would it be called OS XI 11.0 at that point?

Only insomuch as today is a day closer to some date in the future than yesterday. :D I'm guessing we have another decade or so before OS X needs to be replaced.
 
A lot of people seem to not understand the difference between dumbing down (ie, removing features and complexity) and simply adding in new features that are simple and intuitive. :rolleyes:

Lion is not dumbed down. It's still the same old Unix desktop system it's been since the days of Cheetah on PowerPC hardware. I run things like GNU screen, vim, nmap on it daily, all my Perl and bash scripts work just dandy.

Heck, if Lion is so dumbed down, why does the following even work :

Code:
$ echo -e "\033[1;32mA\033[1;33mp\033[0;33mp\033[1;31ml\033[0;35me\033[1;34m\041\033[0m"

What a dumb OS. :rolleyes:

No, "what a dumb point to make", is the correct answer. One could run bash shell on Mac OS 9, that's an old OS but not dumb.. ah one can run the above on Windows ME. That's a dumb OS. Any OS with animated "wizards" is dumb.

Bytheby; Note that Lion is not UNIX, Apple has made no attempts to even claim it is.

Smarter? Dumber? Hmmmmm. Noting that Apple's support for the UNIX roots of OS X is nil and everything you have there is legacy since the time that Apple did care, well it's helping my argument not yours.

However, having seen that you are one dedicated contrarian who has more time than ability to accept facts into your predetermined position, I'll not reply to you again on this topic.

:cool:

----------

At least you are consistent. :rolleyes:

I suppose you consider this to be based on "objective fundament."

Quite so, these are things I go into quite objectively in other posts in this thread. Don't lose any more hair over it! :cool:
 
No, "what a dumb point to make", is the correct answer. One could run bash shell on Mac OS 9, that's an old OS but not dumb.. ah one can run the above on Windows ME. That's a dumb OS. Any OS with animated "wizards" is dumb.

One could, but one would have to install it from a third party, one would not get POSIX compatibility or a Unix compatible C library in the process, nor every other services required to make a Unix system though. Things that OS X has since OS X is Unix...

Bytheby; Note that Lion is not UNIX, Apple has made no attempts to even claim it is.

Oh ?

http://images.apple.com/macosx/docs/OSX_for_UNIX_Users_TB_July2011.pdf
OS X for UNIX Users
The power of UNIX. The simplicity of Mac
...
OS X version 10.7 Lion combines a proven UNIX® foundation with the easy-to-use
Mac interface, bringing multicore technology and 64-bit power to the mass market

A good read my friend, a good read. Contradicts what you've just said entirely.

Bytheby, I was the one who pointed out that The Open Group (do you even know who they are and what their role in managing UNIX is ?) does not list Lion as a certified system, so don't try to throw that argument my way. ;)

Smarter? Dumber? Hmmmmm. Noting that Apple's support for the UNIX roots of OS X is nil and everything you have there is legacy since the time that Apple did care, well it's helping my argument not yours.

Apple supports the Single Unix Specification v3 (SUSv3), what more support do you want considering there's no official v4 or certified v4 systems ? My HP-UX servers at work, running the latest 11.31 version of HP-UX 11i are also "just" SUSv3 compliant.

Unix is mature. As such, it doesn't quite move a lot. Once support is there, it's there.

However, having seen that you are one dedicated contrarian who has more time than ability to accept facts into your predetermined position, I'll not reply to you again on this topic.

:cool:

I'm not a contrarian, I'd be happy to change my position if you provided facts. Something you have no done here. Something I doubt you can do in light of your limited knowledge of Unix it seems.

I know OS X is not dumbed down. It has gained iOS like features, but it has not lost its roots yet (nor has Apple shown the will to remove them). Gaining some UI candy is not what I call dumbing down. The day they remove the things that make OS X a great consumer version of Unix is the day I leave the platform.
 
I do not post that much but I have to say that I absolutely love Mountain Lion. I have been using it for few hours and I am very impressed. The most impressive thing for me is the speed. This thing is so fast, much faster than Lion (10.7.3) on my white MacBook (Mid-2010). Everything works very well.
 
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14332873#post14332873

Augure said:
I wont post the Big Brother pic but...really this is the future Apple is heading toward:

OSX? Meaning OS 10? "Hi, I'm using Operating System number 10"...? What does this even mean ?

iCal is "Calendar", iChat is "Message", adresses is "Contact" (ok this one doesn't change much) but can it be more stupid?

Gatekeeper is a closed ecosystem that will prevent all basic users to download plugins, apps, packages, outside of the Appstore by default ?

And where is the innovation or new functions, possibilities etc...knowing that Apple has even removed some useful functions from Snow Leopard to Lion ?

I've never seen such a dumbing down of any OS ever.

Well said! :cool::D
 
These are ten features they selected to highlight for consumers in a developer preview. The final release will consists of hundreds of new features. (And they are calling it 10.8.)

I seriously do not understand these "Oh my God they are using features inspired by a mobile OS aahhhhh!" arguments. Is there a reason that a notification center is bad for a desktop PC? Being able to seamlessly move between devices would seem to be a good thing.

I honestly believe these are people who own Macs but ended up choosing an Android phone and/or tablet and now are seeing the consequences of that choice where they realize there are going to be huge advantages to owning devices from the same ecosystem rather than disparate ones.

And this is the same for Windows PC users as well. As Microsoft and Apple make all sorts of integrations where owning mobile devices on their platforms produce such obvious benefits over owning a completely different non-integrated device, the Android users will be feeling left out.

All I can say is you should have seen this coming. For those who invest in a complete ecosystem (whether Apple or Microsoft), it's a great time to be a lover of technology. All your devices working in harmony, in sync, and complimenting each other. Each device on the platform you own gains more value simply because other devices on that same platform benefit from the integration and similar UI paradigms.

That's the direction we're going and it seems Android is going to be left out of the party because there is no real desktop OS for it to integrate with. ChromeOS just isn't going to cut it for almost anyone and is a nonstarter. I for one saw this coming a mile away and consolidated all my equipment to use one ecosystem. I chose Apple... others may choose Microsoft's. Either choice will make for a happy user going forward in my opinion as technology moves into this new era.
 
Last edited:
...there are going to be huge advantages to owning devices from the same ecosystem rather than disparate ones....

But, there are also advantages in avoiding "vendor lockins" to any one eco-system - so the Apple people with Androids and the Windows people with IOS devices may be the smartest of all.
 
But, there are also advantages in avoiding "vendor lockins" to any one eco-system - so the Apple people with Androids and the Windows people with IOS devices may be the smartest of all.

Where is the big lockin? iTunes TV shows and movies, maybe? They just don't seem that popular to me. Otherwise, everything is pretty portable other than the apps themselves. But I would think that on the mobile end, $100 in apps per person would be on the high end. Hardly a lockin investment.

Seems like the continuity within the ecosystem would trump these lockin concerns unless I'm missing something.
 
You seem to be genuinely unaware of your misrepresentation, so perhaps I'll try to be clearer to see how you respond. I'll give this another go.

It was a fun post to read and all, and reconfirms that no misreprensentation occurred on my behalf. I understood you before, I understand you now - but I don't see the same on your side.

When we began this dialogue, I asked you to give me an explanation regarding what you thought was dumb about the way Apple is, or has recently, been developing OS X. You mentioned a list, and I selected responded to some. Here I'll address the first four as a test run to see how discussion with you goes.

You said Apple added the following features that made OS X dumber:

(1) Launchpad: I told you that launchpad was entirely optional, so nothing about the overall experience had to be dumber. You could keep everything as you wanted it, or you could use the new added feature if you liked. Your response was whether or not Launchpad was optional, was irrelevant because launchpad itself was dumb. Well, there isn't much of an explanation there on your part. But regardless of whether or not we agree that Launchpad is dumb, the OS is not dumber as a result since you can keep all the "intelligence" it used to have.

There was back in the System 7 days a fun little shell that was called AtEase. It was in many ways a spiritual ancestor of iOS, everything big, grids of icons, only one clicks, protected and safe environment...

It was also a dumbed down version of the Finder, in fact so dumbed down that it can't really be compared side by side.

But it's existance and reasonably common usage, did not make System 7 dumb or simplistic, because AtEase was not *default*. It was an opt-in, not opt-out.

Lion and Mountain Lion are opt-out of dumb things (and sometimes one can't even opt-out of the stupidity) - that's dumbing the OS down.

That being said, launchpad is a good, intelligent feature, for those interested in using it. Here's why. First, forget about where it got its inspiration, just consider it on its own terms. Before launchpad, if you wanted to launch a rarely used app, you had a few options. (a) you could go look for it in Finder. (b) type its name in spotlight, and then launch it, (c) have it on your dock, or (d) have an Application icon on your dock which opened up a list of Apps, from which you can select to launch your rarely used app.

Well, doing (a) is process that takes multiple steps and it is inefficient. (b) is also cumbersome and time consuming. (c) and (d) congest the dock for not good reason. Well, with the new Launchpad, I can activate it through a hotkey, or through a hot corner, so for the most part it is invisible to my usual computing experience. Then when I need to access a rarely used app, I can quickly load it up. I can also quickly delete no longer needed Apps from Launchpad. So, regardless of its interface, it is a wonderful shortcut for my usage. It might not be needed for you, but this extra facility for many others is useful. So what that it got its interface from iOS. I couldn't care less. I evaluate it on its own merits.

I don't doubt you like it but it should have been an opt-in and actual effort been made to make the Finder somewhat usable. The default status of Launchpad makes the OS dumber for it.

On your points, they're fine, but highlight also the things that could have been easily fixed to make them at least as easy as Launchpad.
But that's neither here nor there.

(2) Scrollbars: This point was sufficiently addressed initially. I said it was ugly and unnecessary. You replied by claiming it is objectively convenient and informative. Well, by definition, something objective is something that can be proven. So prove to me what convenience it adds, and what information it adds, that I can't obtain otherwise, or through simply moving my screen ever so slightly to activate the invisible scrollbars? Using loaded language like "objective" is not a very convincing way to argue a point unless you back your usage up with reasons.
Convenient in the sense that it is more convenient to have visible information than invisible inf... oh wait. I can either tell you how long this rope is or you can roll it up until you find out for yourself.

What next, do I objectively prove water is wet? So it is objectively more convenient than scrolling blindly until one finds the edges. If there are any. One does not even have to touch the input device, scrollbars show immediately the posision. That's smart design!

This is not using a loaded term, there is no question I can objectively prove (and so can anyone who can be bothered) that scrollbars are more convenient and provide infinitely more information than no scroll bars.

Thus, less information: dumber system.

(3) Magic trackpad: Multiple finger swipes, regardless of iOS is incredibly useful for many of us. It optimizes our workflow. Explain why it is dumb. The onus is on you here. And your joystick comment is ridiculous, please come up with a better analogy.

Not the gesture, the device. A trackpad is a compromise device for laptops in lieu of a mouse. That some people prefer it over an actual mouse is proof that people can literally get used to anything - it is a dumb device, it is less accurate, it is more difficult to do a three finger upward swipe than just to press a button.

Granted if your only choice is the Magic trackpad and the Apple mouse, the single worst mouse in the world - well of course the trackpad is prefereble.

Joysticks were found on IBM laptops in the 90s, they were as much a compromise device as the trackpad. Many people swore these joysticks were better than a mouse.

Of course neither mini-joysticks nor trackpads give you any objective advantage over a mouse, unless one considers carpal tunnel syndrome to be an advantage? Who knows.

(4) Reversing scrolling: Alright, so let's begin this way. When you code your interface, it seems you have multiple options about how to make your screen scroll. Suppose you want to make your window move down. Here are two options you can do:

(a) make it so that the gestures you use on your track pad represent the action that you want to happen on the screen. So, for example, you move down on the trackpad, and the screen moves down.

or (b) make it so that the gestures you use on your track pad undertake the action that you want to happen to the screen. So for example, if I want to see what is underneath what is currently written within the window, I move that portion of the window up, to see what lies below.

Now, it is possible that one of these is more intuitive than the other on the desktop platform. But regardless of that initial possibility, one thing is blatantly clear. One way or another, you brain will quickly adapt to whatever option is selected, and the process of having the screen scroll will no longer be one you think about, it'll become second nature. There is a very fast habituation that occurs.

Alright, now enter iOS. On iOS, given the touchscreen interface, (b) is more intuitive than (a). Also, the habituation on that interface is not nearly as fast as it is on the desktop environment since your hand gestures are immediately in contact with the screen and do not become invisible or second nature to the computing environment. So, if, as it happened historically, you started the desktop with (a), and your mobile devices with (b), you now have two very different approaches to dealing with a simple process, namely, scrolling.

You can either leave it that way, confusing new and future users, or you can make the process consistent without great loss. The desktop users will need adapt should you implement (b), but that is a loss worth bearing since the habituation curve is so fast. But, that being said, for people who are accustomed to their ways can keep the desktop environment as it was, by keeping (a) in their system preferences.

Nothing about this is dumb. Is is carefully thought out. Nothing about this has anything to do with the "power" or "mobility" of the devices. The desktop could have been programmed to do (a) or (b) at the very start. Changing from one to the other can be done at anytime without causing much inconvenience to the user, especially considering that the user is not obliged to make the transition. Again, what Apple did was it added options for people who prefer consistency between their devices. You see, the beauty about computers is whatever they were initially designed for, whatever their mobility or power limitations, we can redesign them and change their utilities anytime we so desire. There is no "inherent" nature to these objects, and similarly, no inherent inconsistency between the functions we put them towards. The intended designs are malleable.

An OS that can't figure out which way is normal to scroll based on input device or at least allow customization based on input device, is dumb. No question. There's no careful thought behind that. If any thought at all.

When you talk about "The two products, Macs and iToys are by their very nature "inconsistent"" you are talking utter nonsense friend. Computer's aren't Platonic forms. When you say stuff like,

"You make the logical fallacy of Since A is made by C and B is made by C, thus A and B must be made the same." you completely miss the point. It isn't because Macs and iDevices are made by Apple that they are the same, or ought to be the same, it is rather that we can ameliorate the functioning of both devices by changing their designs and functions, should we so choose, and should people desire it. If those, like you, don't like the redesigned functions, don't use them. But to think people, or Apple, are dumb because they choose to ameliorate the experience of the vast majority of their consumers is sheer nonsense. The world of computers is not made for you.

So because you can make B similar to A, then you should?

Forgetting of course that any attempt to make B similar to A, removes a good portion of the advantages B had as a device.

You make pretty speeches, but ultimately what? You refuse to recognize that the default setting is the thing that decides whether a UI or OS is dumb or not? That's the deciding factor. Little else, certainly not that one can turn the dumb/simplistic safetynet off. That's largely irrelevant, although very pleasing to myself, since I do turn these things off.

When you figure out why it is the default setting that makes things dumb, and I'm sure you will, if not in this situation but in another - you'll recognize that iOSification of the Mac, by default is so dumb.

Furthermore, the ML has the App store as default to get apps for the Mac. Also fantastical dumbification of an otherwise above average OS. :(
 
I must say that I am a newish Mac user, around 4 years, first Mac was installed with Leopard. I understand the many points that people are making and I can see they have some truth behind the dislike of the current direction OSX is headed in, but I just don't know if I agree.

Like I said, maybe it's because I am a newish Mac user, but I have been pretty satisfied with the new features. I will say that there are definite problems that Apple needs to address, but in no way do I think the operating system is becoming inferior. I understand that change can be difficult at times, but I am really starting to warm up to Lion.

Like I said in a previous post. It is going to take an actual screw from Apple to get me to switch back to PC/Windows as a permanent computer. I like Windows 7, but prefer being on OSX for 95% of my computer work.
 
It was a fun ***** loads of words ******
fantastical dumbification of an otherwise above average OS. :(

Sjeez guys. I can predict the end of discussion: Loads more words but everyone will think they are right am will not move any closer to each other.

It is simple: if you think osx is dumb: go away and get a windows or better: Linux. You will be able to get your nerd on again.
 
But, there are also advantages in avoiding "vendor lockins" to any one eco-system -

True, ...

so the Apple people with Androids and the Windows people with IOS devices may be the smartest of all.

... but how does that follow?

The vendor lock-in comes from the vendor. If the vendor tries to lock you in, you can avoid him entirely or you can't.

If Microsoft tries to lock you in and you use Windows, you already have to fight the lock-in. Having an iOS or Android device won't help - only motivate, maybe.

(funny how you say Apple people and Windows people, instead of Microsoft people)
 
Not sure anything I've read so far about Mountain Lion impresses me over Lion.

If they fix Mission Control, then I might be impressed. But trying to pound iOS features into a desktop OS doesn't impress me.

With the advent of Gatekeeper (yes, I do know you can disable it). I might jump ship to be honest.

Kills "casual" developers.
 
With the advent of Gatekeeper (yes, I do know you can disable it). I might jump ship to be honest.

Kills "casual" developers.
There's no cost for a developer to get a certificate from Apple, nor does Apple screen/approve any of their apps.

How is that going to kill anything?
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)

Anybody install yet? What programs will the preview render unusable?
 
This is interesting. I have a late 2008 MBP (The first Unibody MBP) and according to this list mine isn't supported but the first 13" Unibody MacBook is.

What you can do now in Lion:

Start System Information
Choose Extensions (wait till the thing is loaded)
Sort by 64-bit (twice)

If there is any non 64bit driver loaded for any of your hardware, you cannot run Mountain Lion.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.