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That's not what intuitive means.

Hum, yes it is.

in·tu·i·tive/inˈt(y)o͞oitiv/Adjective
1. Using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive.

I guess the word intuitive is not intuitive itself since I had to explain it to you. ;)

But for copying one file to another folder, I bet I can actually do it using Finder faster than I can do it on bash. Clicking folders is faster than typing their name.

That's the beauty of bash, who says you need to type out their names ? The tab key is your friend. I can type much faster than I can click and with Bash doing most of the typing for me...
 
Here we go! Someone who missed the whole point of the discussion...

Don't worry, some day you'll understand...;)

Yes, I guess someday I'll be into shallow things like "Look and Feel". I'd rather my OSes be useful as it stands today though. I don't fret the "look" stuff. Heck, I find this login screen (the last 3 lines) to be the most useful :

ts
 
The only problem I have with Finder is stability, it does crash quite frequently on my Mac Pro, and I think it's because I have 9 External HD's connected through eSata PCI-E cards which have bad drivers or something. On my MBP with a single drive, it doesn't really crash.

Some drives take a long time to spin up, causing Finder to freeze; but the same would happen to Explorer.exe in Windows.

If you have performed Repair Disk and Repair Disk Permissions on your drives, then maybe the problem could be caused by a 3rd Party Tool such as TechTools. Try disabling these tools and see what happens.
 
Yes, I guess someday I'll be into shallow things like "Look and Feel". I'd rather my OSes be useful as it stands today though. I don't fret the "look" stuff. Heck, I find this login screen (the last 3 lines) to be the most useful :

ts

LOL... I agree!
Sorry, I was just kidding on my previous reply, don't get me wrong.
I switched to MAC 3 years ago, after using Windows since it was a runtime for Aldus PageMaker 1.0.

To me, Windows XP was the last decent version. Windows Vista was the final kick I needed to make the switch. And Windows 7, as nice as it looks, it has a lot of inconsistencies, and still carries problems from it's predecessors, specially Vista. And I know because I still have to deal with it, as I provide tech support for several clients. And that's besides being bloated with Taskbar apps and processes that sometimes make no sense.

I see now that everybody focuses on looks rather than performance. If an animated Window is going to take away performance, then I don't want it.

Looks are only to impress your friends, and once your friends leave, then it's time to work.

As I have mentioned before in this thread, i'm concerned that most members are focusing into the "look-and-feel" of Lion, instead of on what has improved at the core. Should we open a new thread that focuses in core improvements only? I have to leave now, so please feel free to do so...

btw: I really liked the theme of your login screen. It feels very fast! :D
 
You're kind of a jerk. In your bid to sound better than the other poster, you are giving dangerous advice. I use the terminal often, but using those commands is difficult without knowing how they work and potentially dangerous.

Well, it seems you have never used the Terminal or DOS either.

Ever heard of this command?

man [command name]

Any user really interested in using the shell can learn to use it. Nobody in their right mind would start typing commands without first finding out what these do.
 
New add a folder icon in finder
newmapicon.png



iCal slighty changed (the pressed buttons)
newical.png


- Install animation Appstore to Launchpad is changed too.

more updates incoming

Not only the add folder button, but all those toolbar icons.
 
Well, it seems you have never used the Terminal or DOS either.

Ever heard of this command?

man [command name]

Any user really interested in using the shell can learn to use it. Nobody in their right mind would start typing commands without first finding out what these do.

I have used the TERMINAL. I work on SunOS and I don't know about the GUI.

But there is a reason, these windows managers and these GUI's were designed.

99% or close to 100% of the people would NOT be using a terminal. Why?
Because they have a life.

You imply that to fullfill every single task, one has to read some documentation; or do some research. That's why these OS's were made to simplify tasks for the humans.

Yes you can do wonders with the terminal.

Using diff <a> <b>, you can difference even binaries that you cannot do in some softwares or in the finder but that's not the point.

Using terminal is in itself a task whereas using a finder is not.

As far as your last line is concerned, people make mistakes. Using man OR any other help utility describes the process but does NOT nullify the possible occurence of an ERROR. There is a reason the companies spend hundreds and thousands of $$$ to license version control systems[ClearCase, etc] and use RAID snapshots, in case...
 
Hum, yes it is.



I guess the word intuitive is not intuitive itself since I had to explain it to you. ;)



That's the beauty of bash, who says you need to type out their names ? The tab key is your friend. I can type much faster than I can click and with Bash doing most of the typing for me...

No it isn't.

Using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive.

You said that the guy would have figured the spring loaded folders thing on his own "if it was intuitive". Intuitive does not mean that "everyone should discover it immediately". Intuitive means exactly what you typed. They are different things. Like I said, after you discover that, if it feels "right" then it's intuitive. For example the name of copy command being cp is intuitive because it's the abbreviation of copy. But that doesn't mean that everyone who uses computers will discover cp on their own.

Or drag and dropping in the finder is intuitive because that's like dragging and dropping something in real life, but let's see how many people discover that on their own if you don't tell them they have to keep the mouse key pressed to drag and drop. Could be weeks.

I hope it's clear now.

Clicking is the same speed as hitting the tab key. So you can't really tab faster than you click unless you take 2 seconds to click or something. Also if the folder is filled with files which have names that start exactly the same way but have enumeration in the end, then clicking to the 20th one will be much much faster than doing it in bash.
 
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You know full well that that poster was on about Finder.

Odd, Cut is working in finder for me (unless that wasn't the point, so sorry for interjecting or the pic you showed was not from Lion :eek: )
 

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Some drives take a long time to spin up, causing Finder to freeze; but the same would happen to Explorer.exe in Windows.

If you have performed Repair Disk and Repair Disk Permissions on your drives, then maybe the problem could be caused by a 3rd Party Tool such as TechTools. Try disabling these tools and see what happens.

No, it's not about spin up, that just creates the beachball, not a finder crash.

Apple knows about Finder crash issues, have known it since the days of Tiger, and whenever I submit a new crash log, they say that they know about the issue. Haven't fixed it yet.
 
I guess the word intuitive is not intuitive itself since I had to explain it to you. ;)
.
You know this is foolishness.

For some the idea of dragging a file to where they want it needs to be explained because of previous training. "Put it where you want it" is hard to beat otherwise.
  • Clicking on a file
  • navigatiing to where you want it
  • letting go
vs
  • clicking a file
  • cutting the file
  • navigating to where you want it
  • pasting the file

For me this highlights the difference between Mac and Windows. A simple task; one way is 33% longer. Some people are simply committed to the hoops they are used to jumping thru.
 
Yes, it's clear that you are backpeddling and trying not to be wrong when you obviously are. ;)

Good attempt, I'll give you 2 points for trying.

I'm not backpedalling at all. Intuitive doesn't mean one discovers it on their own with ease.

I'm a mathematician, there are tons of intuitive ideas which took years for mathematicians to figure out but once they figure them out and tell others, people go like, oh that's really intuitive and not artificial at all.

Either mathematicians use the word totally in a different sense, or you are. In any case, the definition you gave is much closer to my use than yours.
 
You know this is foolishness.

For some the idea of dragging a file to where they want it needs to be explained because of previous training. "Put it where you want it" is hard to beat otherwise.
  • Clicking on a file
  • navigatiing to where you want it
  • letting go
vs
  • clicking a file
  • cutting the file
  • navigating to where you want it
  • pasting the file

For me this highlights the difference between Mac and Windows. A simple task; one way is 33% longer. Some people are simply committed to the hoops they are used to jumping thru.

No, cutting really speeds things up. You forget that what you described only is faster if one is moving the file within the same partition. But people move files between different partitions a lot of times and then they have to go back to the original file, hit command+delete, and then command+shift+delete to empty trash. So that's 2 more steps, not to mention you may have lost the original finder window until you do the move so you'll expose to find it again or re-navigate.

So my number one priority for Finder is for Apple to add cut.
 
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GUIs only seem simpler because they require only 1 button to operate, but the fact is, most GUIs have as steep a learning curve as command prompts. However, once you've learned the command prompt (which is quite easy to do once you set your mind to it), you are far more productive and faster at executing tasks on the computer.

Think of it like trying to get something done in real life by instructing another person on what to do. Which is simpler, pointing and touching things that this other person needs to manipulate in a certain way (the GUI) or just plain out telling them what you want done (the command prompt) ? It's much easier to verbosely express the tasks needed than to walk all around the room and pointing to things and then pointing to other things, hoping the poor soul figures out what you mean (move what object from what table to what other table ?).

Most people don't want to learn the command prompt because of one nasty little detail : Fear.

GUI's have a much faster learning curve than command prompt. There's no arguing around this because GUI's are written for regular people where command prompts are written for engineer minded users. I have learnt command prompt because I was curious, but there's no way in hell my father could learn it at his age. He even sometimes forgets basic finder operations.

About being faster, even if you learn bash, you don't really get faster than Finder at first, you need to keep using bash for years to get the "muscle memory" in place and until then you'll still keep doing faster using Finder, even if you know basic bash commands. Just like Finder usage gets much faster in time as well. I can probably navigate in Finder 10 times faster than my friends can because I use computer 10 times more than they do and I know all the shortcuts, I have configured lots of hotkeys for basic tasks and bound a ton of key combinations to my 11 buttoned mouse.

And the analogy you gave is wrong. In real life, pointing is slower than saying the name because the other "person" does have a consciousness of its own, so he/she might misunderstand what object we pointed to. But in GUI, what you point will be always the correct object. How many times do people misclick using their mice? If they do it often I'd suspect they have no idea how to use their mouse, or maybe they should buy a better one or learn how to customize the sensitivity settings.

About people not learning command prompt, I don't think it's fear at all. It's about not having time for it. Mac users are mostly professionals, unlike me, who use their computers to get jobs done. If they are going to spend any time on meta tasks like learning command prompt, that time is much better spent on learning new programs which effects their job in a much positive way than command prompt will. Even if my father could spend couple months to learn basic bash (and there's no way he can but even if he was able to), that time is much better spent on learning Adobe InDesign or Illustrator, since he still doesn't know those apps fully and consistently asks other people whenever he needs something done. And the same applies to the majority of professionals who use macs for their jobs.


Btw, since you know bash much more than I do, I have one question though. Sometimes I want to copy 5000 files from a folder to somewhere else, but not the entire folder, is there a way to use "cp" to copy those files without bash actually typing 5000 names into the terminal window? Because whenever I select and drag 5000 files to a terminal window, it takes forever for the names to list in terminal so it's faster to just drag them using finder and start the copy process. So what I want is for terminal to not write down the names of the files one by one before I can hit enter to start cp and couldn't figure out how to do it.
 
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I have a developer account and I’m running Lion Developer Preview 2, I’ve recently had an iPhoto update and a Java update but no DP3 is showing up. Anybody else had the same problem? Anybody find a way of dealing with it?
 
No, cutting really speeds things up. You forget that what you described only is faster if one is moving the file within the same partition. But people move files between different partitions a lot of times and then they have to go back to the original file, hit command+delete, and then command+shift+delete to empty trash. So that's 2 more steps, not to mention you may have lost the original finder window until you do the move so you'll expose to find it again or re-navigate.

So my number one priority for Finder is for Apple to add cut.

To move the file across volumes w/o leaving the original behind you would need to command-click before dragging. arguably non-intuitive, still less steps.
 
To move the file across volumes w/o leaving the original behind you would need to command-click before dragging. arguably non-intuitive, still less steps.

Yes but that's only when you drag things around. I do my copying with command c+v most of the time, and only rarely I drag, and then I use command+drag.

I really don't know why Apple doesn't add "cut".
 
Hum, yes it is.



I guess the word intuitive is not intuitive itself since I had to explain it to you. ;)



That's the beauty of bash, who says you need to type out their names ? The tab key is your friend. I can type much faster than I can click and with Bash doing most of the typing for me...

I don't want to get into a whole discussion here about bash vs other shells. Suffice it to say that for various reasons I prefer zsh and recommend it to everyone.
 
Four fingers down no longer does anything, how do I revert it to the previous settings where it showed all opened windows from the current app?
 
Yes but that's only when you drag things around. I do my copying with command c+v most of the time, and only rarely I drag, and then I use command+drag.

I really don't know why Apple doesn't add "cut".

nevermind then.
 
Wouldn't Apple ban people from putting these screenshots and stuff out for the public to see?
Either way, whoever released them rules.
I just want this OS to come out already.
 
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