Apple Removes Civil War Games From App Store Over Confederate Flag Usage [Updated]

[haravikk]

In what sense were these portraying the flag in a "mean-spirited" way? As long as the games aren't making the confederates out to be something they weren't, then it's just factual. Ideally they should be letting you play both sides for the sake of balance as well.

This just seems like a massive over-reaction personally, and to be frank I'm getting sick of this over-zealous political correctness (not specifically Apple); surely the test of whether something is offensive is whether or not someone is actually offended first? Of course, anything that's flagrantly created just to cause offence is another matter, but in less obvious cases it does more harm than good to try to pull content pre-emptively.

 

[burgundyyears]

It seems that some here do not understand the difference between 'PC BS' and simply being polite and respectful. As others have noted here again and again, the flag has been misrepresented and misused. In that the flag offends so many and represents a shameful past of slavery, tragic war, and violence against civil rights workers, why not ban it? Red and blue flags could suffice to denote units in a war game.

Apple's store, Apple's rules.

Shouldn't all games that simulate or represent war be removed then because it could be construed to glorify war and therefore offend a good number of people who have lived through wars? Limiting the deletion to a single symbol from a single war seems like arbitrary bandwagon-jumping at best.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

This is the same argument as the people who say it's no big deal because people just meant it as a symbol of "Southern Pride." It doesn't matter what was meant when the reality is that it only exists as a recognizable symbol today because of hatred, racism and evil. Once you understand why it became the symbol it did, and why it has limited historical accuracy as a generic symbol, there is a duty to correct the misuse. When you obstinately refuse to do so because you just didn't "mean" any harm originally, you compound the problem.

The flag means different things to different people. Just as all flags do. It's all contextual.

 

[maelstromr]

Excellent example. I see swastikas in WWII games all the time.

So who exactly is so stupid that they don't understand the difference between an accurate representation of the past and an all out assault on hurting others feelings? Those that fall into that category are the ones that are agreeing with and pulling these apps. I supposed I should add, since I don't have these games, were they really doing something that is directly and actively hateful (like telling the gamer to go make slaves out of your friends) or where they just a representation of our history?

Have you read any of the past comments about your "accurate representation of the past?"

 

[SarcasticJoe]

I wonder what would happen if somebody went and shot up a church while waving the rainbow flag used by the gay rights movement? I doubt they would call for banning that flag, but the responses to the question "You banned the confederate flag because some idiot who shot up a church, so why aren't you banning this flag as well?" would probably be pretty hilarious.

Seriously thou, how can you call using the flag "offensive or mean-spirited" when it's used in the proper historical context? Not only that, but they're just fine with letting developers use the swastika in it's proper historical context (with Germany being the only exception due to local laws). That's just hypocritical as hell as I'd say there's much more reason to ban the swastika even in it's historical context.

I've personally never liked the idea of historical revisionism. Not in countries like China and Russia where they teach kids an incorrect version of history or in the west where they just try to forget their own history by trying to erase parts of it from records and people's memory by things like this.

 

[Rogifan]

"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines," an Apple spokesperson told BuzzFeed News. "We are not removing apps that display the Confederate flag for educational or historical uses."

If that was truly the case, then Apple really needs to explain how in a game like Ultimate General: Gettysburg for example, that the flag is being used in offensive or mean-spirited ways. The game is nothing more than a Civil War game simulation from what I can tell, which means it's being used for historical purposes and not in offensive or mean-spirited ways.

And who gets to make this decision? Tim Cook?

 

[maelstromr]

The flag means different things to different people. Just as all flags do. It's all contextual.

No, it's not. Or rather, not when you understand the actual context for the existence of this particular symbol. I'm guessing you wouldn't make the same point about the Nazi swastika.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/confederate-flag-racist_n_7639788.html

Of course, now I'm really just repeating myself.

 

[VulchR]

Shouldn't all games that simulate or represent war be removed then because it could be construed to glorify war and therefore offend a good number of people who have lived through wars?

Interesting idea. The point is that some people have a very romantic and inaccurate view of the civil war. I grew up in Northern Virginia. When I travelled in the South I noticed a lot of glorification of the battles there, but if you visit the battlefields in Northern Virginia there is no glory... just the occasional bullet and lots of areas where people died, all so that one group of people could treat another group of people as property.

For the record I think the best bet for these games is to change all the flags to blue or red. Otherwise they should be historically accurate, as should the colour of the skin of all of the combatants.

 

[BuffaloTF]

I really can't believe this either... for different reasons.

This isn't even the Confederate Flag... it's the Confederate *WAR* Flag... specifically, General Lee's war flag (hence, it's on the roof of the General Lee car) - as it was used by the army he was the commander of... a rectangular version as opposed to the square makes it the Naval Jack. The Confederate Flag looks like Betsy Ross... 3 stripes instead of 13, blue corner with 7 stars in a circle - Stars and Bars. Either way, the war flag died with Lee's surrender, and his funeral had no flags flown.

It was rarely seen after that until Strom Thurmond brought it back in the late 40s when the States Rights Democratic Party (the Dixiecrats) became a thing. He paraded around the floor of Congress with it. What was his beef? President Truman's very active Civil Rights Committee and the desegregation of the militay. Southern delegates to the Democratic Party walked out of the convention when the Civil Rights platform was announced -- a moment northern Democrats took the reigns of the party, and Progressives (who were largely Republican until this point) joined their ranks. The entire purpose of flying the flag was in 'rebellion' against federal civil rights legislation... in support of Jim Crow... in opposition to integration... and South Carolina did not fly it over their Capitol until 1961, in the midst of an incredibly successful Civil Rights movement to "commemorate the centenial anniversary of leaving the Union"... this isn't about the Civil War, which makes it evil in its own right as it was a fight to permanently establish slavery... it's about what it became, a symbol of institutionalized racism, Jim Crow and other segregation laws.

As to the immediate issue at hand... as a retailer, Apple, et al, can sell whatever they want on their shelves - real or virtual. It's their prerogative. Non-issue, whatsoever. Disney pretends the Song of the South doesn't exist anymore because of the way it portrayed things from a perspective well after it was created... you can no longer purchase it anywhere. Yet for those that know Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah... well, our history hasn't been erased.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

It's amazing how to conservatives it's suddenly government intervention, censorship, first amendment violations, McCarthyism when private people simply stand up together and say "this is hateful, unacceptable, embarrassing behavior and we are going to call you out for it". I hear the same reaction from the anti gay marriage crowd. "Everyone is against us...waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh, IT'S NOT FAIR! We have opinions too! Everyone is so MEAN to us."

It's like you need it to be a conspiracy against you by the government because you just can't accept the fact that society has moved on from this hateful, useless AND historically inaccurate crap, and people aren't willing to politely stand by and let you continue it.

Wait... what? Sorry... but your saying something is hateful, unacceptable, embarrassing, etc. doesn't trump others who disagree with you. Your opinion is yours and yours alone. Even if others agree with you. Sorry, but your thoughts on a subject do not trump my thoughts on the subject. And yes, we may both have very well reasoned out thinking that brought us both to different conclusions. Welcome to America... where we can both disagree, shake hands, and walk away without wanting to throttle the other person. The reality is that political correctness has come to such a frenzy in the USA, that people can simply disagree with something, or state something that is not PC... and they lose their entire career over it. The over-reaction by the PC brigade is ridiculous. We've all been seriously offended at some point in our lives.... and I suspect it will happen in the future. But I'm not asking for blood simply because someone has offended me. I'm tough enough to realize that my opinions aren't everyone's.... and I'm ok with that.

 

[CFreymarc]

Change the pixels to what, exactly?

To this. http://www.allstarflags.com/facts/flags-of-the-confederacy-an-overview/

The Stars and Bars is the confederate battle flag and not the flag that flew above Richmond.

 

[maelstromr]

Wait... what? Sorry... but your saying something is hateful, unacceptable, embarrassing, etc. doesn't trump others who disagree with you. Your opinion is yours and yours alone. Even if others agree with you. Sorry, but your thoughts on a subject do not trump my thoughts on the subject. And yes, we may both have very well reasoned out thinking that brought us both to different conclusions. Welcome to America... where we can both disagree, shake hands, and walk away without wanting to throttle the other person. The reality is that political correctness has come to such a frenzy in the USA, that people can simply disagree with something, or state something that is not PC... and they lose their entire career over it. The over-reaction by the PC brigade is ridiculous. We've all been seriously offended at some point in our lives.... and I suspect it will happen in the future. But I'm not asking for blood simply because someone has offended me. I'm tough enough to realize that my opinions aren't everyone's.... and I'm ok with that.

Where did I disagree with anything you said? I simply pointed out that the reference to "McCarthyism" (as well as similar references to the first amendment, PC police, etc etc) is the new conservative cop-out-cry-baby-whining failure to accept that society has turned (for the better) against a particular point of view. IF your point of view is equal, GOOD for you. Conservatives are just starting to find out that their points of view aren't quite as popular as they would like, and it scares them so much they start screaming about government and liberal conspiracies.

 

[mysticbluebmw]

This seems a little ridiculous.

Just give it one more day...

 

[DesterWallaboo]

No, it's not. Or rather, not when you understand the actual context for the existence of this particular symbol. I'm guessing you wouldn't make the same point about the Nazi swastika.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/confederate-flag-racist_n_7639788.html

Of course, now I'm really just repeating myself.

The Swastika does have different meanings to different people. Neo-Nazis see it differently than probably the rest of the world. But the reality is that there aren't a wide variety of interpretations you could apply to the Swastika. However, the Confederate Flag has more than a single interpretation. I realize that you only see it through one level of interpretation. Many people see it as a fierce symbol of not allowing oneself to basically become sheep to a government. But lets be honest here... sanctioned slavery existed much longer under the US flag than it ever did under the four years of the confederate flag. And if we want to get into a much broader conversation on the cause of the Civil War, etc. We should probably start a new thread.

 

[H. Flower]

I wonder when they will back pedal from this like every other knee jerk reaction they have been doing lately? I don't think this would have happened under Steve's watch. If this is typical California mentality, I definitely don't want to move there. By them removing it is more offensive than it being within the game. When will this PC BS madness end?! I blame the millennials! Praise Zeus I am not one of them!

This will bet the first and probably last time I ever say this, but Steve definitely wouldn't have allowed this.

Injecting personal politics into a company weakens the brand and risks those involved looking foolish, like the recent hypocritical statements by Tim Cook on Indiana.

It's ok to have strong political beliefs and even hypocritical ones - we all do - but best not to involve them with your business, because there is nothing to gain.

 

[maelstromr]

The Swastika does have different meanings to different people. Neo-Nazis see it differently than probably the rest of the world. But the reality is that there aren't a wide variety of interpretations you could apply to the Swastika. However, the Confederate Flag has more than a single interpretation. I realize that you only see it through one level of interpretation. Many people see it as a fierce symbol of not allowing oneself to basically become sheep to a government. But lets be honest here... sanctioned slavery existed much longer under the US flag than it ever did under the four years of the confederate flag. And if we want to get into a much broader conversation on the cause of the Civil War, etc. We should probably start a new thread.

So have you read the article or considered the actual history of the Dixie Cross? Because it sounds like you're not really acknowledging the issue. The HuffPo (admittedly a total rag for a lot of things) did a really good job of explaining why what you just said is really inaccurate, and I encourage you to at least think about it. I have spent a LOT of time doing it myself and my conclusions are pretty clear. If you disagree with what the HuffPo article says, I would be, honestly, very interested in knowing what you disagree with, why, and what your sources are.

 

[brentsg]

This is the stupidest thing I can remember Apple doing.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

Where did I disagree with anything you said? I simply pointed out that the reference to "McCarthyism" (as well as similar references to the first amendment, PC police, etc etc) is the new conservative cop-out-cry-baby-whining failure to accept that society has turned (for the better) against a particular point of view. IF your point of view is equal, GOOD for you. Conservatives are just starting to find out that their points of view aren't quite as popular as they would like, and it scares them so much they start screaming about government and liberal conspiracies.

First off... stop trying to place me under some "ism" label that you find convenient. No one "ism" defines me, thank you.

The difference is that people don't simply disagree with something, they flat out take action and go to great lengths to eliminate what they find offensive. This is contrary to first-amendment protections we've been attempting to defend since the founding. The actions of attempting to silence or restrict someone's free speech because you disagree with it IS McCarthyism. Full blown. Look at what happened to the CEO of Mozilla when they discovered that he had contributed to Prop 8 in California years earlier. It turned into a full-blown pitchfork and torch brigade. People didn't simply voice their disapproval, no... they had to make sure he was fired from his job. Even though the company had strong policies in place to stop discrimination in the workplace. Instead they went after him, personally, for expressing his own opinion in his own personal way on his own personal time. And let me add that at this exact same time Obama himself was defending DOMA.... where were the people calling for his head? Going back to the point at hand, I fully agree that the Confederate Flag should be taken down from state and government buildings. But forcing people to not be able to purchase it based on a singular view they have of the flag IS McCarthyism. Pressuring anyone that sells a flag to stop selling it or suffer the wrath of the hordes isn't American at all. Learning to agree to disagree is a trademark of maturity.

 

[Rogifan]

This will bet the first and probably last time I ever say this, but Steve definitely wouldn't have allowed this.

Injecting personal politics into a company weakens the brand and risks those involved looking foolish, like the recent hypocritical statements by Tim Cook on Indiana.

It's ok to have strong political beliefs and even hypocritical ones - we all do - but best not to involve them with your business, because there is nothing to gain.

And if the Confederate flag can be banned then what about music on iTunes that contains explicit lyrics like the b and n words. Should Apple force that to be removed too? If they did a lot of rap and hip hop would be gone from iTunes store.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

To this. http://www.allstarflags.com/facts/flags-of-the-confederacy-an-overview/

The Stars and Bars is the confederate battle flag and not the flag that flew above Richmond.

And what does that fix? Those are symbols of the Confederacy. They are symbols of racism and slavery. The PC police will catch on and demand those be taken down as well.

 

[blacktape242]

No, it's not. Or rather, not when you understand the actual context for the existence of this particular symbol. I'm guessing you wouldn't make the same point about the Nazi swastika.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/confederate-flag-racist_n_7639788.html

Of course, now I'm really just repeating myself.

LOL The huffington post... NEVER site media as credible and fact! NEVER...... rookie....

 

[JustThinkin']

A number of people have mischaracterized the "Dixie Cross" flag as not being the "true" Confederate flag. But a quick look at Wikipedia belies this sentiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Unsurprisingly, it became the final, historically recognizable Confederate flag for good reason. It or its likeness is easily the most prominent feature in both the 2nd and 3rd (and final) official flag, as well as various other Confederate flags.


So you can't use this as an excuse, regardless of which side of the issue you stand on. It's clearly the "real" flag.

 

[doelcm82]

I wonder what would happen if somebody went and shot up a church while waving the rainbow flag used by the gay rights movement? I doubt they would call for banning that flag, but the responses to the question "You banned the confederate flag because some idiot who shot up a church, so why aren't you banning this flag as well?" would probably be pretty hilarious.

The Confederate Battle flag in question already had an image as a symbol of hate and oppression. It was a carefully crafted image, formed over decades by people who knew they were using it for oppression.

If Dylann Roof had shot up a church while waving a Rainbow flag, the reaction would have been confusion. It would have tarnished the image of the Rainbow flag, but that image could recover.

The Confederate flag that Roof posed with was already 49% tarnished before last week, and hardly anyone was working to restore it to something that most could be proud of. Roof's act of terrorism just pushed it to 51% tarnished, and started a chain reaction, as people who previously supported it either changed their minds, or decided it wasn't a good idea to be associated with the flag of civil rights oppression and a particular mass murderer.

 

[Renzatic]

First off... stop trying to place me under some "ism" label that you find convenient. No one "ism" defines me, thank you.

I don't think he was, man. Read it again.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

So have you read the article or considered the actual history of the Dixie Cross? Because it sounds like you're not really acknowledging the issue. The HuffPo (admittedly a total rag for a lot of things) did a really good job of explaining why what you just said is really inaccurate, and I encourage you to at least think about it. I have spent a LOT of time doing it myself and my conclusions are pretty clear. If you disagree with what the HuffPo article says, I would be, honestly, very interested in knowing what you disagree with, why, and what your sources are.

I just finished the article... but my point still stands. I'm fully aware of the history of the Confederate Flag. Meanings of symbols change and evolve for various reasons. They always have. Absolutely there are people who fly the Confederate Flag as a means to create racial rifts. No doubt about it. But that doesn't meant that EVERYONE, or even the majority of people fly the flag for this reason. As the article points out, the KKK uses the American flag as a symbol as well. Are we going to attempt to abolish the American flag simply because some mindless bigots use it?